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Carnage
Apr 12, 2007, 3:32 AM
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So, since im an anchor building noob (1 class and some light reading under my belt) im not sure if this is acceptable
Heres the situation. The closest place around here to climb has alot of natural protection set back from the cliff edge. Of course i dont want my rope running across this. Some friends told me a small section of static rope would be a good idea to bring. Heres what ive come up with for a setup: (note: apparently i cant take clear pictures with my roomates camera, sorry for the blur)
so i know this anchor is lacking in redundancy. since there is only 1 strand connecting the climber to the tree, however, i believe that there is enough strength in the rope to be more than safe especially in any top rope situation. The way i think about it, if the anchor is going to fail, it will be an the weakest point. with this anchor i think that the weakest point is the loop knot that the 'biners are on. i believe that this rope is more than strong enough to sustain any forces from any falls.
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treemonkey
Apr 12, 2007, 3:49 AM
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You need a Second Anchor Like a bolt, another tree or sling a bolder. You also should use a figure 8 instead of butterfly. The 3 ovals would work, but two lockers would be better.
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2007, 3:56 AM
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I probably wouldn't climb on this. I'm not real clear on the tree w/no knot thing. Also, I wouldn't prefer to use a butterfly for an anchor knot. Not really sure what you intend here. Is it to use your climbing rope to anchor and set up a top rope simultaneously? That seems like a difficult way to do things, plus you need 50% more rope. If that's what you're working on, I suggest you go buy some webbing to set your anchor at the top instead and get rid of this rather unusual set up. Webbing's cheap, strong, and you can buy it cut to whatever length you want. Loop it and tie it with a water knot, back it up with another strand and have fun. Protect it over any edges. Make sure your tree is stout. Live, big, deep roots, etc. Tie it off low to the ground. Consider a second back up anchor. And of course, the usual disclaimer, find someone with experience to help you learn.
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trad_kid
Apr 12, 2007, 3:56 AM
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It's much better to find someone who know what they are doing then just trying to wing it.
Also the set-up above needs redundancy. Far to many single failure points.
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dan2see
Apr 12, 2007, 4:00 AM
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Carnage wrote: ... i believe that this rope is more than strong enough to sustain any forces from any falls.
... I believe that you seriously need some tutoring from an experienced mentor.
Anchors aren't high-tech, you build one from simple components. The components should be strong, but the really important item is the system, or rig, or arrangement.
Using natural anchors is great, and 3 biners for the top-rope is a good idea too, but the rest of your rig fails in too many ways to list.
Sorry, carnie! 
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tallmark515
Apr 12, 2007, 4:02 AM
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you can't be serious...
A.) As you already mentioned... It lacks redundancy. That's just flat out dangerous. The rope is only one of the many parts of your setup that could fail. Trust your life to it??? That's a personal decision... but don't get your friends involved who are under the impression that your setup is safe... thats fucked up.
B.) 3 biners? I guess that's fine, but uneccessary.
C.) NOT an appropiate use for a Butterfly knot!
Is the one tree the ONLY natural protection or are you just trying to be cheap and save money by not buying longer static ropes/webbing? How thick is the tree? If you are really going to trust your life to 1 source, then at least use two seperate pieces of webbing/cordalettes and build an equalized anchor.
BTW 1" tubular webbing is probably going to be safer and cheaper to use then static rope.
Get a book on how to build an anchor or search rc.com/google you'll get a million hits (and pics).
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elnero
Apr 12, 2007, 4:09 AM
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Don't use the climbing rope for the top rope anchor, webbing or static rope is much better.
The not-a-knot/friction knot is good too, I'd use a bowline instead of a locker, just to use less gear. You want to use a similar setup for the other end of the anchor, another tree/bolt/something. The butterfly isnt so hot, I'd use either two figure 8s on a bight, or a double figure 8.
I use either 2 or 3 biners depending on what I have on me at the time. 3 ovals is pretty nice, or 2 lockers, or 2 of something else.. doesnt really matter.
As always keep SRENE in mind, and your picture only has 1 anchor point in it, which is sketchy. If the tree you tie off on fails, youre screwed. in a top rope situation you generally aren't pressed for time or anything to set it up, so might as well do it right.
I assume you're talking about pilot mtn, theres usually 2 bolts or a mess of big ole trees at the top of all the routes, so it shouldnt be a problem finding enough anchor points.
finally:
If my eyes are working right at this hour, i think thats an NCSU nalgene bottle in the photo... yes?
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bent_gate
Apr 12, 2007, 4:22 AM
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In addition to the above comments which I won't repeat, if you are doing a tensionless knot (at the chair/tree) make sure you have at least three wraps around the tree. Maybe you do, but the picture looks like only one wrap.
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Carnage
Apr 12, 2007, 4:33 AM
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elnero wrote: finally: If my eyes are working right at this hour, i think thats an NCSU nalgene bottle in the photo... yes?
ur good (Lawls, @ nick, carnage = derek)
for the record, im trying to figure out if its worth going out and buying some static rope. im not planning on throwing my climbing rope around a tree and running it down, i just didnt have a static rope to try out.
i think my teacher has a bit of a hard on for the butterfly, apparently its not that good, ill stick w/ the figure 8's from now on
see if this setup sounds a little better:
lets say theres a mess of trees at the top, static rope no knot+bowline around each tree. the V from the static rope has an overhand thrown in it, equalized to where the climber will be exerting force, w/ 2 lockers/3 ovals in the loop, which is thrown over the edge of the cliff.
Better yes?
(This post was edited by Carnage on Apr 12, 2007, 4:46 AM)
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elnero
Apr 12, 2007, 4:45 AM
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i think youre making this way too complicated.
Also, whats the deal with the overhand knot, why not use an 8?
Just wanna use webbing or static rope to attach to two trees, and get a powerpoint in the middle. personally, I'd use the static rope, and two figure 8s for the powerpoint, and then use the friction hitches or bowlines to tie to the trees. I like the two figure eights cause its easier to adjust where the powerpoint is.
You can do a similar setup with webbing, which should be cheaper as well.
Alternatively, wait for Terry to come back from his broken ankle and ask him to show you, or go to the wall and ask some of the guys there.
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catbird_seat
Apr 12, 2007, 5:18 AM
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I am appalled by some of the comments you have on this thread. First of all, there is nothing inherently dangerous about the system that you have described. Maybe it is not optimum, but not necessarily dangerous.
My comments:
A butterfly is a rather odd choice. My preferred knot would be a figure 9. A figure 9 is easier to untie than a figure 8.
If you use one tree, it must be a BFT. A BFT means a Big F***** Tree. Savvy?
Yes, static rope would be better, but a climbing rope is okay, I've done it that way myself many times. If the run back to the anchor tree is a long one, you'll have a really bouncy top rope anchor, which will be unpleasant.
If you have two trees, take a strand from the figure 9 to each tree and use the No Knot hitch that you showed. The No Knot is VERY strong. Three wraps and a couple of half hitches for good measure.
(This post was edited by catbird_seat on Apr 12, 2007, 5:20 AM)
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codhands
Apr 12, 2007, 5:18 AM
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CARNAGE is right... plus what everyone else has already said.
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redpoint73
Apr 12, 2007, 5:19 AM
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No way that chair leg is strong enough to use as an achor.
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crotch
Apr 12, 2007, 5:20 AM
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tallmark515 wrote: C.) NOT an appropiate use for a Butterfly knot!
shockabuku wrote: Also, I wouldn't prefer to use a butterfly for an anchor knot.
treemonkey wrote: You also should use a figure 8 instead of butterfly.
Any of you folks care to explain why a butterfly isn't an appropriate knot for this application?
To the OP. I don't know how sharp that cliff edge is, but you should be concerned about the cliff edge abrading your static rope and possibly cutting through. Ideally you would have 2 independent strands going over the cliff edge, and you might consider padding the edge to reduce the chance of cutting through your rope.
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salamanizer
Apr 12, 2007, 5:23 AM
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Gumbies giving advice to gumbies....
Classic RC.com.
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tallsailor
Apr 12, 2007, 5:24 AM
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What you really need to do is make the static rope running over the edge redundant. Although three independant anchors is textbook for topropes, I would climb on a toperope set off a single bomber tree. I WOULDN'T toprope of an anchor with only one strand running over a cliff edge...
As others have said, figure-8 on the binners instead of alpine butterfly. Ideally this should be doubled up also. Just remember, there should be two or more of everything except the climbing rope itself. (and some climbers even use redundant climbing ropes...)
It doesn't seem to me that many people use the No-knot. A water knot or figure-8 loop on each strand around the tree would be fine, but in theory, the no-knot should be stronger.
I have seen someone put their static line through the center of about 4-6 feet of webbing so that when they tied the figure-8 powerpoint, the powerpoint was redundant...
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medicus
Apr 12, 2007, 5:43 AM
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No I wouldn't climb on that.
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crotch
Apr 12, 2007, 5:44 AM
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tallsailor
Apr 12, 2007, 5:55 AM
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Mainly because that's the "normal" knot for this situation. If you think that the alpine butterfly would be better I would be interested in hearing your reasoning.
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bent_gate
Apr 12, 2007, 6:06 AM
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redpoint73 wrote: No way that chair leg is strong enough to use as an achor.
You must not have read the entire thread, but he said that someone fat would be sitting in the chair (and drinking beer out of the NCSU bottle)...
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ihategrigris
Apr 12, 2007, 6:15 AM
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In reply to: If you think that the alpine butterfly would be better I would be interested in hearing your reasoning.
Saves rope in this rediculous set up, might be able to get close to a full 20 meters out of it using a butterfly instead of a figure-8.
To the OP.... although this anchor is not a death trap, (assuming you have one HUUUUUGE tree), it's annoyingly messy; and i wouldn't climb on it... the fact that you have 3 lengths of rope hanging down the climb is the big problem IMHO. That limits you to an 18 meter climb at best.... Buy some webbing and sling sling the tree you cheap bastard.
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tallsailor
Apr 12, 2007, 6:37 AM
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The OP clearly states that the anchor is made from a separate piece of Static line, and not from the climbing rope itself. I agree though, webbing would work great.
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hosh
Apr 12, 2007, 7:47 AM
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If you bolt your chair to the floor and clean up that garbage in the top left corner, then *maybe*, but honestly, what fun is climbing on the living room floor? I mean, really. REALLY?
some people. Sheesh!
hosh.
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majid_sabet
Apr 12, 2007, 7:56 AM
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this way !! better
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 12, 2007, 7:58 AM)
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suzie_cuzie
Apr 12, 2007, 8:27 AM
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bent_gate wrote: redpoint73 wrote: No way that chair leg is strong enough to use as an achor. You must not have read the entire thread, but he said that someone fat would be sitting in the chair (and drinking beer out of the NCSU bottle)...
*N00b taking notes* 'Anchor needs fat guy sitting on chair...' Gotcha!
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