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photoguy190
May 15, 2007, 8:23 PM
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I have been looking for a set of cams, I've been looking at rock empire cams, I know they aren't the best, but the price gets me climbing with out having to borrow my friends all the time. I've really like the Durangos, but when I was looking on there site I found a new set called the Re-flex. I can't find them in the USA, they look to be a new model of flex cams. They look really nice and seem to be lighter and have a better expansion range then the Durangos. Any one used them know where to get them.
Here is the link
http://www.rockempire.cz/...98&nLanguageID=2
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krosbakken
May 15, 2007, 9:20 PM
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From what I've heard I wouldn't go with RE cams. Yes they are cheap but they shouldn't be the back bone of your rack. I've never used RE cams but that is what I have heard.
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photoguy190
May 15, 2007, 9:29 PM
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I've climbed on many different cams including Rock Empire I know they aren't the best but they are a really good value. If I could afford a rack of Camalots I would buy. I don't need people to tell me the rock empire is junk I know there product, I'm asking if anyone knows any thing about the apparently new Re-flex. If the specs on the new re-flex are true they could be a better cam too.
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krosbakken
May 15, 2007, 10:29 PM
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Sry for the misunderstanding.
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winglessangel
May 15, 2007, 10:45 PM
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As far as I know re-flex is the redisgn of a cam called flex. This old flex wasn't even theirs, they bought it from some company.
For us Brazilians price does matter since importing taxes can put the itens up to 4 times it's original value. A friend has a set of RE and he doesn't complain.
And for opinions tha I've heard (not mine), go for ROBOT cams, they are more durable then flex or re-flex.
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winglessangel
May 15, 2007, 11:08 PM
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no, sorry.
go for Robot instead of Comet, that is what I was told.
No one aorud here has the re-flex set, so sorry I can't help.
I have a set of camalots just cause I go someone to bring it from France to me, but I was almost buying the robot set till I new of this last minute oportunity.
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unreleasedenergy
May 15, 2007, 11:09 PM
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durangos are a copy of the trango flex cams. i'm not sure about how the patent stuff works out, but i do like the trango version, just don't own any.
i did happen to notice the new addition of the re-flex cams, however i haven't seen them for sale anywhere.
i like the idea of the 7 and 8 for big stuff but still economical.
the largest pulsars are comparable in size but dual stem.
we'll see if they get released over here.
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notch
May 15, 2007, 11:29 PM
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winglessangel wrote: A friend has a set of RE and he doesn't complain.
He may never have a chance...
Get the heavier models. If you know the quality is already somewhat suspect, why buy a model with less material? Asking for trouble, IMO.
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angry
May 15, 2007, 11:55 PM
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I've used the Rock Empire Pulsar cams extensively in the offwidth sizes. At first I loved them, they are so much lighter and cheaper than WC or BD.
I will never, ever, buy a Rock Empire cam again. The camstops on mine jammed together, no amount of lube could fix them. The only way to keep them functional is to actually REMOVE the camstops. Then the thumb bar (u-stem) broke. Rock Empire informed me that they do no offer any warranty on non structural parts of the cam.
Fuck those cams, they aren't built well enough.
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climbinginchico
May 16, 2007, 12:47 AM
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No way would I ever buy a cam with that much material taken out of the lobes. It's a recipe for disaster.
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chumbawumba
May 16, 2007, 1:04 AM
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Check out solid stem Friends. They're cheap at gearexpress.com, they work well, and will never wear out.
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boku
May 16, 2007, 1:35 AM
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unreleasedenergy wrote: durangos are a copy of the trango flex cams. i'm not sure about how the patent stuff works out...
Yes, Durangos are basically the same as Trango Flex. No, they're not a copy.
Rock Empire was manufacturing the Flex for Trango, now they're making them for themselves under the Durango name. Dunno how the license stuff works out, you'd have to ask Malcolm about that.
My cam rack is all Camalots and Rock Empire cams (a mix of Robot and Comet). I like that mix because the Camalots have a lot of range, and the Comets are light and let you carry a lot of cams. I think the RE cams are smooth and solid, well-enough made gear.
Anybody who thinks the Rock Empire stuff looks sketch oughta try a Petrenko Links cam. But even those seem to pull-test to well above their rating.
Bob "BoKu" K.
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photoguy190
May 16, 2007, 1:48 AM
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I'm not sure what every one has against RE, its not like they are having the problems that CCH is having, or is the history I don't know about. I have looked at other inexpensive cams and they don't work for me, I do a lot of horizontal placement not good with solid stems and I feel more comfortable placing single stem cams. Right know I need cams to climb so I can afford 4 BD cams or 8 RE, it makes sense to me to but the RE and then slowly add BD as the money comes available. However if there is a proven safety issue not just its less money it not as good that would change my mind.
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joeforte
May 16, 2007, 2:18 AM
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I own a set of rock empire durangos. They hold just as well as any other cam I've whipped on. The big ones tend to walk, and are a bit unstable. I'd definately recomend the first 6 RE durango cams. The smallest 4 are great. Get a #1 and #2 camalot to replace the bigger ones. I started out with a full set of durangos, and eventially added .75-3 camalots. I have never felt the need to upgrade/replace my small-medium durangos, and they stay on my rack to this day.
There is no reason to worry about their safety.
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cornstateclimber
May 16, 2007, 2:20 AM
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Iown rock empire robots and My partner has the durangos. I love all of them but the #5 and the pulsar bigs #5-7 suck bad. But I dont hesitate to place my robots or the durangos in most situations. But also IMO if you can afford c-4's the buy them you cant go wrong there, thats my next buy to replace the robots....
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needlzdos
May 16, 2007, 2:39 AM
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I have the full set of Durangos and the 2 biggest Pulsars. I like the small Durangos b/c they were affordable, the big pulsar's are crap and I firmly believe I may die if I whip above them since they walk so badly it's super easy for them to F' themselves into a ridiculous position.
Checkout www.spadout.com for the older style camalots that many stores are liquidating. They are often cheaper than the RE cams and they're BD kick a$$ camalots! Also checkout gearexpress.com and their sales/blems/closeouts.
http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Black+Diamond/idesc/Micro+Camalot+-+Closeout/Store/MG/item/626014/N/1014
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winglessangel
May 16, 2007, 4:54 PM
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photoguy190 wrote: I'm not sure what every one has against RE, its not like they are having the problems that CCH is having, or is the history I don't know about. I have looked at other inexpensive cams and they don't work for me, I do a lot of horizontal placement not good with solid stems and I feel more comfortable placing single stem cams. Right know I need cams to climb so I can afford 4 BD cams or 8 RE, it makes sense to me to but the RE and then slowly add BD as the money comes available. However if there is a proven safety issue not just its less money it not as good that would change my mind.
You have a point.
if you come to think about it I've heard of stories of CCH, omega and other cams that really BROKE in a fall.
Never heard of a RE that broke. Can happen, but I haven't heard about.
But since you are asking "hat every one has against RE", I believe the answer is durability and apparently some "moving" pulsars.
So analyzing the previous answers, what I would say to whoever needs cam for low price is:
You get a full set of RE today, you save big money TODAY, you climb a lot and safe. slowly you add camalots, in a couple or more years your REs will jam or something else and you will *need* to replace them. It WILL COST MORE in the end, but you will have climbed for 2-3 years.
and. ps, this thread could go in DB vs non-BD. I once borrowed a WC so jammed I couldn't open the lobes, the force applied would bend the steam before opening it...
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madrock
May 21, 2007, 6:32 AM
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I've owned a Rock Empire set for about two years with no problems although not getting as much use now due to shoulder dislocation problems. They seem pretty good.
Joe
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styndall
May 21, 2007, 6:44 AM
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I've got a few of them from when they were Trango Flex Cams, before Trango developed the new style and RE picked up the old ones.
They're decent cams, especially in the wide fingers to hand sizes. The bigger ones are a little narrow, but they'll still hold just fine. The most critical thing is not to get hung up on gear. Having 50 super-pricey BD C3s won't get you up any climbs; climbing rocks will. If these cams will let you do more climbing, then go for it.
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moggs
May 22, 2007, 3:09 AM
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Last weekend I was climbing in the valley. I'm just getting into trad so I was on the popular moderates. I think I saw 5 fixed cams. 1 piece was a BD cam. 1 piece was a metolius cam. the other 3 were Rock Empire.
I don't know if it's the people that buy them or something inherent in the design itself (perhaps they walk a lot) but the numbers were a bit staggering.
If you start with 8 rock empire cams or 4 BD cams right now what will you have left in a year? just something to think about.
I'm sorry I don't know what model of Rock Empire cams they were. I cleaned one last year off a route at tahquitz and it was a Robot type.
happy shopping and be safe.
-moggs
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angry
May 22, 2007, 3:57 AM
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winglessangel wrote: You have a point. if you come to think about it I've heard of stories of CCH, omega and other cams that really BROKE in a fall. Never heard of a RE that broke. Can happen, but I haven't heard about.
Read my post above, I BROKE one.
Now it didn't fail in that it came out of the rock or didn't catch a fall, but a critical part broke.
It was subtle enough that I didn't notice it until the next route and I was unable to place it, I would have been in trouble if it was in a critical spot.
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winglessangel
May 22, 2007, 1:03 PM
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angry wrote: Read my post above, I BROKE one. Now it didn't fail in that it came out of the rock or didn't catch a fall, but a critical part broke. It was subtle enough that I didn't notice it until the next route and I was unable to place it, I would have been in trouble if it was in a critical spot.
Sorry, but your first post wasn't clear for me. I understood that it broke because you tryed to unjam it:
angry wrote: The only way to keep them functional is to actually REMOVE the camstops. Then the thumb bar (u-stem) broke.
Anyway, I'm NOT saying that these are excelent quality gear, not even saying that they are GOOD quality gear,
just saying that if you are a complete dirtbag or make less money then a 5-yearold with a lemonade stand, RE cams could be your temp solution
even you said:
angry wrote: I've used the Rock Empire Pulsar cams extensively in the offwidth sizes. At first I loved them, they are so much lighter and cheaper than WC or BD.
anyway, I'm glad nothing more serious happened. Being let down by gear will allways suck big time. sorry, man!
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fenderfour
May 22, 2007, 2:41 PM
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angry wrote: Read my post above, I BROKE one. Now it didn't fail in that it came out of the rock or didn't catch a fall, but a critical part broke. It was subtle enough that I didn't notice it until the next route and I was unable to place it, I would have been in trouble if it was in a critical spot.
What exactly broke on the cam? Trigger bar? Trigger wire?
I was looking at the Faders website and they have cams that look exactly like the RE Pulsars. Hmmm...
What do you mean "offwidth sizes"? Are we talking BD #4 and bigger? I didn't think any of the RE cams got that big.
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studclimber
May 22, 2007, 11:54 PM
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I agree with styndall, if the cams get you climbing, then go for it. That said, I own a set of durango's, or flex cams, or whatver you want to call them. I use them mostly on alpine, because they weigh nothing, but I also use them on trad routes. I like them, and I don't worry as much about the possibilty of having to leave one behind on an alpine route. c4's are great, but cost a ton, so go with something you can afford, so long as it gets you out climbing.
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slacklinejoe
May 23, 2007, 3:28 PM
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fenderfour wrote: I was looking at the Faders website and they have cams that look exactly like the RE Pulsars. Hmmm...
Having purchased cams from Faders before they WERE Rock Empire Cams. They didn't even re-label them or anything.
I too have a mix of cams that include RE. I have a full set of pulsar cams with the smaller durangos.
As far as I can tell most people only have issues with the "feel" of the cam, either when you squeeze the trigger or the ergonomics. They are no where as smooth as BD's or many of the other newer cams.
As Angry noted, his cam had critical failure of a non-load bearing part that disabled the cam. Fortunately this was a usability problem and not an actual failure that lead towards falling further.
This is unfortunate but please keep it in context, this happens with damn near every other cam out there - take a look at how often trigger wires pop off for the other models (especially problematic with the link cams) or other issues that crop up but don't lead to being dropped.
You'll also read about all sorts of other claims about cams walking, regardless of brand. When slung correctly I've never had a Pulsar walk, but slung short every cam I've ever used can walk a little (i.e. nature of the beast).
Also, just to say it, the durangos are fairly smooth, pulsars are a little clunky in comparison to the latest and greatest but so was every other cam developed up to 7 years ago. It's up to you to decide whether smooth as butter vs a little clunky is worth the $200+ price difference.
Would I trade my RE cams for equivalents in c4s, yep.
Do I feel safe climbing over my RE cams, as safe as any other cam I've used.
(This post was edited by slacklinejoe on May 23, 2007, 3:31 PM)
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foeslts16
May 24, 2007, 7:27 PM
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^^^^ I second That. I have had full set of the pulsars for 2 years, and in that time I have taken many whippers on almost every piece. Never a problem. I bought a full set of new BD C4s this year with the intent of totally replacing my RE cams with BD c4s. But I can not think of a compelling reason to replace the RE cams. I will use them until they brake, which doesn't seem like it will be anytime soon. So yes, I would say to anyone looking to get a trad rack going for cheap, buy Rock Empire Cams. The whole argument some people are making about buying cheap cams will cost you more in the long run just does not pan out - a buddy of mine has used RE cams for 5 seasons (climbing 3-4 times a week), and he will probably get 5 more seasons out of them.
Oh, and as an added bonus, RE cams are CE and Uiaa certified unlike some other cam company we all know.
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sausalito
May 24, 2007, 8:11 PM
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my honest guess to this may be that they are cheaper so people are not so set on getting them out and when they place them they may conciously really get them into tight spots thinking "what the hell... its not going to blow and I dont give a shit if it comes out...."
but I could be wrong.
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avendesora11
Aug 6, 2007, 9:06 PM
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photoguy190 wrote: In reply to: gets me climbing with out having to borrow my friends all the time. I've really like the Durangos , Right... and I've never let you borrow my rack...
(This post was edited by avendesora11 on Aug 6, 2007, 9:08 PM)
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trebork2
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Aug 6, 2007, 10:00 PM
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Before I could afford BD cams I rocked RE Durangos. I actually still them. I have took some decent whips onto them more than I've wanted to and they are still going strong. I trust the Durangos. I've never climbed on any other RE cams but I'd buy the Durangos again.
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tallnik
Sep 5, 2007, 10:57 AM
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trebork2 wrote: I have took some decent whips onto them more than I've wanted to and they are still going strong. I trust the Durangos. I've never climbed on any other RE cams but I'd buy the Durangos again.
Second that - I've used my RE Durangos for 4 years, climbing at least once a week (winter too!) and love them.
Curious to see the new RE cams. I'm in Euroland right now, so we'll see if I can get my hands on some of them in Germany. I don't need any more cams right now, so I'll try not to buy any
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sixleggedinsect
Sep 12, 2007, 4:23 AM
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moggs wrote: Last weekend I was climbing in the valley. I'm just getting into trad so I was on the popular moderates. I think I saw 5 fixed cams. 1 piece was a BD cam. 1 piece was a metolius cam. the other 3 were Rock Empire. I don't know if it's the people that buy them or something inherent in the design itself (perhaps they walk a lot) but the numbers were a bit staggering.
i climb with the robots sometimes, depending on how many cams i need in a given size. i think they're solid and dependable. they used to be my primary rack years ago. in certain rock they even place in more secure spots than a standard BD rack.
a lot of people, when they notice the robots, tell me that 'they're always fixed' thing. thats not my experience, and i pay a lot of attention to fixed cams (becuase i get 'em out!).
folks used to fix my trango flex cams (yep, got those too, also not my primary rack..) in the creek all the time, but it was always because they were gripped, trying to place them like a BD which shrinks down more.
if there are more trango/rockempire (all made in the same big czech factory) fixed cams, perhaps its just indicative of how much trouble folks are willing to spend getting them out, and how attractive they are to all subsequent dirtbags.
i consider the robots very similar to the old (pre 'ultralight') metolius 4CUs. i also have the 3CUs in the tiny sizes. they all look really cheap, but in terms of how they place, how they clean, how they hold, etc, id call it even with metolius. they're very similarly (identically?) sized as well. and ive never heard of one breaking..
now- the large sizes are a different matter. for some reason, across the board, the euro import cams absolutely suck in the large sizes. #3 camalot size and larger are Not Worth Buying. even if you're cheap. they walk and wiggle and are narrow and scary and they have soft springs. if you buy the large euro import cams, well you made your own bed..
except for those, i like them. better than the WC cams, even. if you need off-size cams (between BD sizes) for the creek, or are trying to put together a secondary rack, you really cant go wrong. unless you have a prodeal on BD or your mother buys your gear.
(This post was edited by sixleggedinsect on Sep 12, 2007, 4:30 AM)
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verticon
Sep 12, 2007, 11:05 AM
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I own a set of RE Robots - from #.25 to #5 - and BD Camalots - from #.5 to #3. The sizes overlap very well, so the two sets complete each other.
I wanted to get some doubles in the small range and thought about getting some Re-flex (RE is a lot cheaper and good enough in the small sizes). Well, I didn't... The triggers on the Re-flex are just huge, and are getting in the way for most of the placements. I mean that if you place a #.25 in a vertical crack the trigger will rest on the edges and it will certainly break in a whipper. So I went for the Durangos, the old and "unimproved" model.
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tallnik
Sep 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
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Good to know about the wide triggers!
Nik
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robbovius
Sep 13, 2007, 5:02 PM
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boku wrote: unreleasedenergy wrote: durangos are a copy of the trango flex cams. i'm not sure about how the patent stuff works out... Yes, Durangos are basically the same as Trango Flex. No, they're not a copy. Rock Empire was manufacturing the Flex for Trango, now they're making them for themselves under the Durango name. Dunno how the license stuff works out, you'd have to ask Malcolm about that. My cam rack is all Camalots and Rock Empire cams (a mix of Robot and Comet). I like that mix because the Camalots have a lot of range, and the Comets are light and let you carry a lot of cams. I think the RE cams are smooth and solid, well-enough made gear. Anybody who thinks the Rock Empire stuff looks sketch oughta try a Petrenko Links cam. But even those seem to pull-test to well above their rating. Bob "BoKu" K.
I have a petrenko (K.R.O.K) #1 link (same as the one you pull-tested) and I've placed it on a couple routes and in many top-rope anchors...yeah it looks crazy, but it works pretty well. make other climbers cringe ;-)
it was my #2 placement on a traverse move on a local climb, and when i was lowering, rope tension caused the cam to rotate in the placement, but it held fine. the mor I use it and work with it, the mroe I come to trust it, and for sure the price is right.
I also have a couple RE flex cams and one trango flex, that I take on every route. I've placed them all multiple times, fallen on a couple of them and they've worked great.
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tallnik
Sep 28, 2007, 1:20 PM
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I bought the reflex cams 7, 8
In the small sizes the trigger is unnecessarily fricking HUGE! I mean, it's the same trigger as on the number 8 (a 5.5in cam) as on the 0.25 in cam!
Have yet to climb with em, but here's my first impression. NICE finishing, good solid springs, and easy to use thumb loop and trigger. The cut out, while large, does not scare me away from buying them, if they're claiming it'll break at 12kn, I beleive it's gonna be near that number. Also, there's still a ton of metal left, it just looks radical because it's a single large cutout insteat of a bunch of smaller ones like BD. The lrg cutout also means they're LIGHT!!!
Will let you know what I think when I climb and whip on em
Cheers,
Nik
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Jbitz
Sep 28, 2007, 3:04 PM
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Finally, a post from someone who "actually" has a Reflex cam.
I have been keeping tabs on this thread for a while waiting for someone to comment who has tried them. I'm looking forward to reading your hands-on review.
I have been trying to decide which RE cams to go with myself. If you go on rockempire.com they do not have them listed there, but they are on rockempire.cz.
Also, I have not seen them advertised anywhere in the U.S. Where did you pick these up Nik?
Thanks,
Jeff
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tallnik
Sep 29, 2007, 12:44 PM
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I had some correspondence with the dude from rockempire.com, and they're maybe gonna start selling them in Jan '08. However, the flex cams are mad popular so they don't see the need to replace them.
I got mine in the Czech rep. as I'm in Europe right now. I'll be sure to post up when I've used them. Right now I'm pretty pleased given first impressions. I hate my trango number 9, and am looking forward to selling that piece now that I have the re-flex 7 to replace it.
Buy nice or buy twice, but I'm pleased with Rock empire.
Nik
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Jbitz
Jan 15, 2008, 3:45 PM
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Registered: Nov 14, 2006
Posts: 124
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Hey Nik,
Just curious if you had a chance to place that re-flex #7 yet and what your thoughts are on it?
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tallnik
Jan 20, 2008, 11:50 PM
Post #39 of 42
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Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 595
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whipped on to it. It works. Lacks the refinement of something BD - but it'll work if you place it right. For the price, hell yeah
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evanwish
Jan 21, 2008, 9:10 AM
Post #40 of 42
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Registered: May 23, 2007
Posts: 1040
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joeforte wrote: I own a set of rock empire durangos. They hold just as well as any other cam I've whipped on. The big ones tend to walk, and are a bit unstable. I'd definately recomend the first 6 RE durango cams. The smallest 4 are great. Get a #1 and #2 camalot to replace the bigger ones. I started out with a full set of durangos, and eventially added .75-3 camalots. I have never felt the need to upgrade/replace my small-medium durangos, and they stay on my rack to this day. There is no reason to worry about their safety.
yep same here.
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sanarteaga
Jul 7, 2009, 5:25 AM
Post #41 of 42
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Registered: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 64
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I own a complete durango set (before flex cam by trango...).
I climb near bogota, Colombia, south america, in rather soft sandstone.
I have fallen less than 10 times on the durangos. Out of those probably 8 where on the blue number 3 (size = red camalot). The f%%ing blue one has ripped out twice (so thats more or less 1/3 of the times). I have been saved both times by the orange numer 4 (size = yellow camalot). And it held both times like a champ, once the fall was a 8 meter factor 1! (i ended up at my belayers' height, but unharmed) I think the first time the blue ripped out because the piece was to small for the placement (now I always crank this guys at 80%). The second time I think it was the rock quality (sanstone...) but i couldnt tell if the pebbles that i felt falling were from the first placement (which blew) or the second one (which held me).
Besides leader falls, I have used them to build anchors, top ropes, and also "rested"on them while leading.
This said, this is what I have to say:
1. Great price.
2. Quality is ok. They are deteriorating, but nothing serious. I guess you can expect a life more or less 3/4 of a camalot.
3. DO NOT TRUST THEM AT RANGES SMALLER THAN 80%. BUT THEY ARE BOMBER AT 80% PLUS RANGES. They are suppose to work 50% up, but at less than 75% they are only psychological pieces to me. Since their range is rather limited, and sizes do not overlap much, they are simply not as versatile as C4s.
4. Stability: The small ones behave better. The big ones need stronger springs (they feel too soft and this could translate into "walking"). Simply use long draws to keep from disloging them...
5. I also own C4 camalots and they are better in every aspect except for: price and weight.
6. I you have no cams, go for RE. They will allow you to start trad climbing. Once get more into hard trads, and you start falling more on the pieces... maybe you will also like to save for some C4s...
Botton line:
CHEAP, RELIABLE BUT WITH A LIMITED RANGE, DECENT QUALITY, GREAT TO START YOUR SLCD RACK!
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austinnokc
Jul 14, 2009, 7:43 AM
Post #42 of 42
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Registered: May 15, 2009
Posts: 23
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This thread has really helped me a lot. I am about to purchase a cam set for my first active protection pieces. So Far I have only purchased Black Diamond Equipment except for a few other pieces of necessary gear. Gri Gri, Metolious PAS, & Slings. Shops for Climbing equipment are limited in Oklahoma City I think that there is only 4 or so. They are all very brand specific too.
Through my research I have found that BD is very good and time tested equipment, however it is very pricey. It is company that has very loyal climber following. Many other companies sell and manufacture good quality life saving gear.
Many climbers I have talked to in Oklahoma USA have stated, "don't buy the cheap crap and etc..." siting all sorts of reasons. I find it is kinda like buying a car (Used to sell cars for a living) People form opinions based on price and brand recognition. When there is always a cheaper and "similar" quality item available.
That being said I am going to purchase RE Durangos or Robots to start my lead rack.
Citing problems of walking, quality, workmanship and etc.. aside. Walking can be cured by adding length to the sling. Quality (They hold UIAA and CE certifications) They will save your life as long as you place them properly. Poor workmanship all things break down with use and abuse so for a beginner buying BD Camalots to break them down with poor use/placements and etc would be stupid. Also it doesn't matter how expensive or reputable the gear is if it is placed wrong or in a less than perfect placement it could or will fail.
Rock Climbing is a dangerous sport we all accept that when we are 100 foot up on a crag. Especially when we rap/climb onto our built anchors for the first time
Heck for the price on rockempire.com you can buy 2 sets of 8 cams = 16 cam units for the same price as 10 BD C4 Cams.
So here is my plan to start my cams with RE Durangos or Robots, (Can't Decide Ustem or Single) then slowly gain some BD C4s for extras and backups.
Since nubies seem to loose gear on the crags I don't think I would feel to bad loosing some RE for 35 bucks to replace the unit vs. 65ish for BD.
All in all value to quality grade is at least a A- for the RE cams so new to old climbers should purchase RE gear.
EDIT: 07/17/2009 - After going to the UIAA website I found that rock empire was not an approved manufacture of frictional anchors. http://www.theuiaa.org/...ls_manufacturers.php
I still think that they will make good cams to start a rack with.
(This post was edited by austinnokc on Jul 17, 2009, 10:26 AM)
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