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zealotnoob
Jun 15, 2007, 6:24 PM
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My girlfriend has expressed a little interest in climbing, which, of course, has me really excited. If she would only bite as hard as I, she could be a keeper... But there is the possibility that she's only expressing interest to placate me. Regardless, I intend to find out this weekend on a day trip to the Gunks. My intent is to take her up one of the easy classics--5.3 or 5.4--all the way to the top. She shouldn't be too challenged physically, but, mentally, she'll either have to embrace it (at which point she'll become hooked) or she'll freeze and swear it off (and I'll know where she stands). What I seek from the RC community:
What are other good ways to plant the climbing seed?
Special considerations so as to not scare her off?
What would be an ideal route? (I'm thinking Yum Yum presently)
(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Jun 18, 2007, 9:33 PM)
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jedasmith
Jun 15, 2007, 6:27 PM
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Betty!!
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bobruef
Jun 15, 2007, 6:39 PM
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I've had much experience in this regard, but little luck. My advice is to eeeeaaaase her into it. Be a facilitator rather than a pusher.
In reply to: But there is the possibility that she's only expressing interest to placate me.
This was definately the case w/ my wife. It took a looooong time for me to figure that one out. I mean, why would anyone in their right mind not like climbing?!
As far as routes at the Gunks, my experience is pretty limited, but Horseman (5.5) comes to mind. Depending on her experience, splitting it into two pitches may be a good idea. Short approach, pretty vertical, clean climbing for the grade, and just the right ammount of exposure for her. I'm not really qualified to comment on any of this though, as I've been unsuccesful with getting my wife into climbing. So, take my advice for what it's worth.
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taino
Jun 15, 2007, 6:40 PM
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Seconded.
Yum Yum Yab Yum has a traverse on the last pitch that isn't entirely comfortable to a new climber; I've heard (second hand) of a new climber that couldn't make the traverse moves, and the pendulum she took was a thing of wonder.
On Betty, you can communicate easily with your second at every stage, you can walk off instead of rappel, there are comfortable belay ledges, etc. I would break it up into three pitches - to the first pitch belay ledge, up the chimney to the next large ledge, then up the rest of the way.
T
(This post was edited by taino on Jun 15, 2007, 6:43 PM)
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zealotnoob
Jun 15, 2007, 6:46 PM
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That sounds perfect.
Does that mean you've given up Bobreuf?
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reg
Jun 15, 2007, 6:47 PM
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"Special considerations so as to not scare her off? "
is the key - i wouldn't hang her on the side of a couple hundred foot wall on her first trip. better to take her to the 40 footer and ease her higher as she gains composure and confidence with being at height.
edit: remember she has to learn to trust the gear, you and get used to the height - it's all going to scare the crap outta her. but then again my wife stood up tall on a narrow ledge with 100's of feet drop off on either side her first time out - i was crawlin for gods sake.
(This post was edited by reg on Jun 15, 2007, 6:51 PM)
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granite_grrl
Jun 15, 2007, 6:49 PM
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taino wrote: Seconded. Yum Yum Yab Yum has a traverse on the last pitch that isn't entirely comfortable to a new climber; I've heard (second hand) of a new climber that couldn't make the traverse moves, and the pendulum she took was a thing of wonder. T
Betty would be an excellent climb, but it would be nice to get her on a nice short pitch so you can watch her and give her support as she climbs. Maybe even set up a sling shot so you have a better view of her as she heads up. Sling shot might also be better if she might be scared of rappeling.
If she does well on the short climb, then get her on something longer, then maybe an easy multipitch.
On the first climb don't get on sometime with a lot of exposure, long rappels, tricky moves or crack climbing, overhung or having roofs. Make her feel as comfortable as you can. The last thing you want is to spook her 'cause she might not ever come back after that.
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olderic
Jun 15, 2007, 6:57 PM
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Has she climbed before or not? What is her (if any) experience level? If she has never climbed before - that's the way it sounds - and you start her with a multi pitch climb at the Gunks (or anywhere) I can perdict the outcome.
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taino
Jun 15, 2007, 7:11 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: taino wrote: Seconded. Yum Yum Yab Yum has a traverse on the last pitch that isn't entirely comfortable to a new climber; I've heard (second hand) of a new climber that couldn't make the traverse moves, and the pendulum she took was a thing of wonder. T Betty would be an excellent climb, but it would be nice to get her on a nice short pitch so you can watch her and give her support as she climbs. Maybe even set up a sling shot so you have a better view of her as she heads up. Sling shot might also be better if she might be scared of rappeling. If she does well on the short climb, then get her on something longer, then maybe an easy multipitch. On the first climb don't get on sometime with a lot of exposure, long rappels, tricky moves or crack climbing, overhung or having roofs. Make her feel as comfortable as you can. The last thing you want is to spook her 'cause she might not ever come back after that.
Good suggestion. In that light, the first pitch of Hawk (5.3) or the first pitch of Twin Oaks (5.3) might be a good bet.
Or, take her to Peterskill - nothing but singlepitch stuff, there.
T
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rgold
Jun 15, 2007, 7:30 PM
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If you're looking for a gym partner, put her on a 40 foot wall with a top-rope where you can bombard her with non-stop beta, inundate her with extravagant praise out of all proportion to anything she's actually doing, and teach her the joy of hang-dogging from the very first step.
Seems to me that people are recommending you do everything possible to hide what climbing is about in the hope that she'll like it.
The Gunks is the perfect place to introduce people to climbing outdoors. You have some height and exposure at marvelously low difficulty levels. If you don't get a first-time thrill from an easy Gunks climb, then climbin' ain't fer you hon, pure and simple.
I think that you and many of your respondants are already thinking about too high a grade too. It's the experience, not the difficulty level, that counts.
Betty is OK. I'd put it pretty far down the list. I think Three Pines and Northern Pillar are much better if the guided hordes are not plastered on them. Probably require a weekday. Minty is good if she has the physical ability to get past the first ten feet. Of course you belay right there on top of the block. Casa Emilio is an excellent option for a crowded weekend; you might end up with the whole wall to yourselves. Beginner's Delight is the best, but not perhaps for the very time out unless she's really gung-ho and you know exactly where the route goes and how to arrange the protection for her.
A few additional things to consider:
1. If you wouldn't be pretty comfortable soloing a climb, you probably shouldn't be taking a rank beginner up it. She shouldn't think for even a second that she might have to catch you falling.
2. No rappelling the first time out.
3. Short pitches. Make sure it is always easy to communicate, and make sure you can always see her.
4. Any gear you place has to be super easy to remove. Even so, have a good strategy for going back for it yourself. Don't pressure her to get out something she's struggling with.
5. Consider making a climb to the top and the walk back the whole day (as far as climbing goes). Let her process the experience.
6. If she likes it, consider hiring a guide for the next session. Teaching an SO to climb can be a bit like teaching them to drive. The experience may be somewhat different than the fantasy.
7. Speaking of the fantasy, it isn't at all unlikely that one of you will end up being much better than the other. Is either outcome OK?
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paulraphael
Jun 15, 2007, 7:48 PM
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I've been through this a few times, and I think it's best to ease people into the gunks experience. I've seen beginners freak out on easy classics because of the exposure. Also, some of the easier routes can feel pretty awkward in places if you don't find the right sequence ... and beginners often don't.
I start people out on toprope, just to get them used to it. Then i'll them follow a single pitch and get used to dealing with the gear. How much time before a multipitch depends on their comfort level, but I'd never start someone out on a gunks multipitch.
Just my experience (and I've had to bail from a couple of 5.3s because of girlfriend panic attacks ... not fun).
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shakylegs
Jun 15, 2007, 8:08 PM
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I'd suggest Gelsa. It's a great climb, with nothing strenous, and good holds everywhere.
A few years ago, I can't recall what climb I'm on, but it's a few routes to the right of Shockley's Ceiling. Start hearing some arguing, but not thinking too much about it. I figured someone was having a bit of trouble getting over the roof, and was simply arguing and yelling out of frustration and to psyche herself up.
Unfortunately, no.
Turns out some dude decided he was going to show his little hothouse flower how cool climbing could be, and proceeded to introduce said sport by starting her out on Shockley's. So, she's bitching and complaining, he's going down the route of "honey, it's easy, all you have to do is reach up a bit, bring your right foot high up and to the right, etc." The situation is quickly degrading until, finally, this ear-piercing scream of
"I'M TRYING, YOU MOTHERFUCKER!!!" rang out.
It was such a classic moment. I doubt the relationship lasted much longer.
So, um, don't put her on Shockley's.
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wormly81
Jun 15, 2007, 8:10 PM
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I decided upon Jackie. Great climb with the gunks 5.5 roof experience. You can watch the second on the entire pitch and theres a bolted anchor for ease of cleaning. Then you can top off the cliff in the dihedral and walk off the uberfall (which was important to me I didnt want to deal with rapelling on her first climb).
Second climb... Yum Yum Yab Yum. Although the communication can be a little difficult on the traversing last pitch, its well worth it. No problem plugging tons of gear on the traverse.
Exposure is the gift that keeps on giving.
(This post was edited by wormly81 on Jun 15, 2007, 8:13 PM)
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rgold
Jun 15, 2007, 8:21 PM
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Paul, you may be right; perhaps I'm just too oldskool.
I can say, in defense of my apparently crusty attitude, that, while in grad school and a bit beyond, I guided for several years. I always took people up a Gunks multipitch for their first experience. (And I never set up a toprope, not even once.) Perhaps over that time I took a fifty total beginners up climbs. Only one, a very out-of-shape gentleman, insisted on going down. Everyone else made it to the top, and almost everyone came back for some more.
Certainly, there were times when some TLC was needed; you have to be resourceful, flexible, willing to think a bit outside the box, and genuinely patient. And I really had no vested interest in my clients becoming climbers; I wanted to show them what it was about and if they liked it, I would help them get a start.
Quite a few went on to active independent climbing careers, in some cases at impressive levels of achievement.
Of course, all this might prove is that I had a good selection method, and that if people need to be coaxed into the sport, other approaches are needed.
Carry on...
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bobruef
Jun 15, 2007, 8:22 PM
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shakylegs wrote: ... The situation is quickly degrading until, finally, this ear-piercing scream of "I'M TRYING, YOU MOTHERFUCKER!!!" rang out. It was such a classic moment. I doubt the relationship lasted much longer. So, um, don't put her on Shockley's.
 ROTFLMAO
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tigerlilly
Jun 15, 2007, 9:00 PM
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bobruef wrote: I've had much experience in this regard, but little luck. My advice is to eeeeaaaase her into it. Be a facilitator rather than a pusher. This was definately the case w/ my wife. It took a looooong time for me to figure that one out. I mean, why would anyone in their right mind not like climbing?! As far as routes at the Gunks, my experience is pretty limited, but Horseman (5.5) comes to mind. Depending on her experience, splitting it into two pitches may be a good idea. Short approach, pretty vertical, clean climbing for the grade, and just the right ammount of exposure for her. I'm not really qualified to comment on any of this though, as I've been unsuccesful with getting my wife into climbing. So, take my advice for what it's worth.
If you suggest Horseman, or any 5.5 with exposure, as a start, this could explain your lack of luck. Take it from a woman - start easier than that if she has never climbed.
Women think differently from men! I swear we are born in possession of a caution gene which men don't have!
Personally, I'd start on a single pitch TR, unless she explicitly says she has no fear of heights. Multipitch can be intimidating. Start on something hard and you could turn her off forever. If you must do multipitch, maybe Three Pines. The OP may want to test her real desire to climb, but since when did you take a test without taking class first? Start easy and fun, and work your way up from there. She needs to learn how to move in the vertical world and get used to it before tackling the more intimidating aspects. Walk first, then run.
Kathy
(This post was edited by tigerlilly on Jun 15, 2007, 9:31 PM)
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eastvillage
Jun 15, 2007, 9:01 PM
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Jackie, interesting choice. That roof could be hard for someone with no experience, but you could easily lay on the tension. Of course you never mentioned how athletic your GF is.
I like Gelsa in the Nears for this. The exposure on the last pitch is fantatsic, coupled with the huge buckets. Communication could be an issue. I'm with rgold, skip the top roping, welcome to the Gunks!
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jsh
Jun 15, 2007, 9:27 PM
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I can't tell you exactly what route will be best for her. I can't tell you whether one pitch, or topping out, is best. I can't tell you how to make her bite as hard as you.
Only one person can: your girlfriend.
Regardless of what you do: LISTEN TO HER. Let her tell you when she's had enough, or if she wants more. Let her tell you whether it's too hard right now (and figure out how you're going to deal with that, wherever it happens). Don't insist that she experience or embrace things the same way you do.
And don't look at it as a test. Or if you insist, remember that you're being tested as well.
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gunkjunkie
Jun 15, 2007, 9:42 PM
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Jackie seems like a good idea. You might think of climbing in a group of three. This way she can concentrate on the climbing and clipping her trailing rope and not having to clean gear. Also this makes rapping safer if you have to or chose to do this. One can go down and put her on a fireman's belay and the other can make sure her rap set up is done properly and coach her through the rap. You may want to try one of the easier one pitch routes at the uber fall first just to get her used to climbing and clipping the rope or cleaning gear.
Deirdre
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jman
Jun 15, 2007, 10:35 PM
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A good one I think would be Bunny. If she feels good on that one then move over to Horseman (would recommend doing it in two pitches that way you can keep an eye on her and she can see you).
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builttospill
Jun 16, 2007, 12:07 AM
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this may be just me, but I've had some limited success taking girlfriends and friends that are girls climbing.
Most of the time, it doesn't work out that well.
If I were to do it again, I'd consider doing it rgold style, something multipitch, something fun, something straightforward, etc.
Most important: something EASY.
Hey, 5.4 may be easy for you. You may remember it as being easy even when you started. But for a girl who is shorter, or less athletic, or more scared, or whatever, it can be damn hard.
I lowered my girlfriend off a 5.4 before the crux moves on her first time out. It was the easiest climb in the area, so there wasn't much choice.
But if I had access to stuff like 5.1 to 5.3 that aren't grovels in the dirt and chimneys, I'd have taken her there. I suggest you do the same.
Who likes failing on a climb? Well, I don't, not much at least. Who likes picking up a new activity and sucking at it immediately? A bit of failure is fine, but complete abject failure is a recipe for making her hate climbing. Give her a taste of success and she'll be more likely to enjoy it. A top-out, in this regard, is gold.
And like someone else said, listen to her. If she says she's done, let her down. She may not show it, but she'll probably be a little upset with herself (as in the case of the 4 girls I have introduced to climbing). Try to take her someplace way easier, but if she declines, don't push it. Ask casually another time.
Good luck. If she doesn't like it, it's really not the end of the world, either.
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climbsomething
Jun 16, 2007, 12:34 AM
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This thread tickles me.
Now, I admitted to learning how to climb so I could impress a boy. It's not proud but I can't lie, and I know it's common.
But if said boy went to the internet before he took me out (on a 2-pitch, chimney to slab with a hanging belay and a rappel, BTW) and used a phrase like "gf test" I think I would have kicked him in the jimmy.
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flowin
Jun 16, 2007, 12:59 AM
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i say keep it to a single pitch for her first time, ease her into it. I will be there bouldering so i will look for the frozen girl on the rock!
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climbsomething
Jun 16, 2007, 2:24 AM
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Do it! DO IT BUTTHEAD!!!
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curt
Jun 16, 2007, 4:49 AM
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rgold wrote: ...Betty is OK. I'd put it pretty far down the list. I think Three Pines and Northern Pillar are much better if the guided hordes are not plastered on them. Probably require a weekday. Minty is good if she has the physical ability to get past the first ten feet. Of course you belay right there on top of the block. Casa Emilio is an excellent option for a crowded weekend; you might end up with the whole wall to yourselves. Beginner's Delight is the best, but not perhaps for the very time out unless she's really gung-ho and you know exactly where the route goes and how to arrange the protection for her...
I'd also add Andrew to that list.
Curt
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rgold
Jun 16, 2007, 5:58 AM
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I guess I'm still feeling argumentative. Most of the people who are promoting shorter climbs on the grounds of "easing" the beginner into climbing are also proposing routes two to four grades harder than what I'm suggesting.
I think this involves a misunderstanding of the issues that face a beginner. It isn't about challenging them; there's plenty of time, a lifetime really, for that. The goal of the first experience should be the opposite of challenging, at least in the physical sense. The goal should be to open doors and change perspectives, to show people that what they can do far surpasses what they think they can do, that the vertical world can be accessible.
The challenge is coping with the height and exposure while learning that you really can climb a 250 foot vertical face using just your hands and feet. The climbing should be so easy, it really is doable for almost anyone. You shouldn't be falling or hanging on your first climb, and you shouldn't be marginal either.
This type of experience cannot always be arranged. We are fortunate to be able to provide it in the Gunks.
Shaky's story about Shockley's is an all too commonplace phenomenom. If you've been around much, you've seen it over and over. (Jackie is a common location too, by the way.) What could the leader of that disaster possibly have been thinking? Dark motives suggest themselves. Was he trying to demonstrate his superiority to his soon to be ex-girlfriend? Did this choice of routes flow from some buried (but not buried enough) wellspring of hostility? Was he so selfish in his desire for intersting climbing for himself that he just hauled his girlfriend along with no real regard for her experience? Or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, was he just stupider than the day is long?
Sorry to raise this issue, but these conflicts do seem to have a nasty sexist component to them. A lot of guys really do suck.
Some other thoughts: Gelsa is a disaster in the making; communication on the long second pitch will provide a potential nightmare for a beginning follower. You must be able to see and speak to your follower at all times.
No climb with significant traversing is appropriate, unless the ropes can be arranged to provide overhead protection at all points for the second. Never expose a new climber to what is, after all, a leader fall on a traversing pitch. Sheesh!
If you can get away from the hurly-burly, I think it is a good idea. Don't even think about the Uberfall climbs. There's something very private about one's first encounter with a steep cliff. Going through this first paradigm shift with a mob all around you chattering away and possibly bombarding you with helpful advice you can't make the least sense of is not a relaxing experience, nor one many people will be anxious to repeat.
I say go long and easy, walk off, call it a day after one, and spend some quality time off the rocks for the rest of the day.
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jt512
Jun 16, 2007, 6:18 AM
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rgold wrote: I guess I'm still feeling argumentative. Most of the people who are promoting shorter climbs on the grounds of "easing" the beginner into climbing are also proposing routes two to four grades harder than what I'm suggesting. I think this involves a misunderstanding of the issues that face a beginner. It isn't about challenging them; there's plenty of time, a lifetime really, for that. The goal of the first experience should be the opposite of challenging, at least in the physical sense. The goal should be to open doors and change perspectives, to show people that what they can do far surpasses what they think they can do, that the vertical world can be accessible. The challenge is coping with the height and exposure while learning that you really can climb a 250 foot vertical face using just your hands and feet. The climbing should be so easy, it really is doable for almost anyone. You shouldn't be falling or hanging on your first climb, and you shouldn't be marginal either. This type of experience cannot always be arranged. We are fortunate to be able to provide it in the Gunks. Shaky's story about Shockley's is an all too commonplace phenomenom. If you've been around much, you've seen it over and over. (Jackie is a common location too, by the way.) What could the leader of that disaster possibly have been thinking? Dark motives suggest themselves. Was he trying to demonstrate his superiority to his soon to be ex-girlfriend? Did this choice of routes flow from some buried (but not buried enough) wellspring of hostility? Was he so selfish in his desire for intersting climbing for himself that he just hauled his girlfriend along with no real regard for her experience? Or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, was he just stupider than the day is long? Sorry to raise this issue, but these conflicts do seem to have a nasty sexist component to them. A lot of guys really do suck. Some other thoughts: Gelsa is a disaster in the making; communication on the long second pitch will provide a potential nightmare for a beginning follower. You must be able to see and speak to your follower at all times. No climb with significant traversing is appropriate, unless the ropes can be arranged to provide overhead protection at all points for the second. Never expose a new climber to what is, after all, a leader fall on a traversing pitch. Sheesh! If you can get away from the hurly-burly, I think it is a good idea. Don't even think about the Uberfall climbs. There's something very private about one's first encounter with a steep cliff. Going through this first paradigm shift with a mob all around you chattering away and possibly bombarding you with helpful advice you can't make the least sense of is not a relaxing experience, nor one many people will be anxious to repeat. I say go long and easy, walk off, call it a day after one, and spend some quality time off the rocks for the rest of the day.
So, how often did this approach get you laid?
Jay
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livinonasandbar
Jun 16, 2007, 11:59 AM
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Shakylegs nailed it... Shockley's Ceiling is definitely the one to start your girlfriend out on. Anchor yourself well back from the top edge to make sure you can't hear each other yelling. Then take up the slack and give her a few tugs to start her on her way up. Settle in and enjoy the rope action... feel her ease across the traverse and up toward the crux move over the roof. The rope will then be still for a bit while she ponders the move. After that, the fun begins... up, down, up, weight, down, up, down, up, weight, down, etc. After about 20 minutes, you'll have a decision to make: tie her off, and rap down the other end to see what's going on; wait for an opportune move and commit to physically hauling her up and over the roof; or tie her off and run for your life...
I understand that Shockley's has been the cause of numerous break-ups, cancelled engagements, and even divorces... been there, done that!
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devkrev
Jun 16, 2007, 1:37 PM
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jt512 wrote: So, how often did this approach get you laid? Jay
I don't think this is the approach to try to GET laid, I think this is the approach to KEEP getting laid.
dev
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mheyman
Jun 17, 2007, 3:10 AM
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I think there are two extreme cases. Rgold has one of them nailed. That case is that she wants to climb so badly that she will hire a guide to take her, and don’t mean this in any derogatory way. But the other extreme case is that you are dragging her out to climb with you. Then easing into the sport by top roping might be better advice. The reality is probably somewhere between these cases.
Rgold made a comment about being able to comfortably solo the route, which I feel is very wise advice for two reasons. She should not have to catch you, and you should not be dependent on her to do it unless she has practiced a good bit, and, it will probably keep you closer to the grade she should be starting at. This single Idea has previously kept me from “guiding“ my own children in the past. It is just this year that I feel confident enough to take them up a multi-pitch route with me - if they want to come.
A few years back I was part of a group hosting climbing from various parts of the country. The locals split up to lead the visitors on nearby routes. I was pretty green, and was volunteered to lead a California couple up route. Jackie was nearby, nobody else had chosen it – they had all picked harder routes, and to be honest it was the hardest thing I felt I could lead visitors on. So I get up the first pitch in (only) fair style, only to have the visiting climbers with what I thought was far more experience than me hang quite a bit before getting past the crux. Turned out I could have picked something easier and they probably would have had a better time!
In reply to: Heheheeh ... you said: In reply to:kicked him in the jimmy you just passed the test
Yeah, granite grrl passes the test over and over!
(This post was edited by mheyman on Jun 17, 2007, 3:40 AM)
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limeydave
Jun 17, 2007, 12:30 PM
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zealotnoob wrote: My girlfriend has expressed a little interest in climbing, which, of course, has me really excited. If she would only bite as hard as I, I'm sure she'd be a keeper... But there is the possibility that she's only expressing interest to placate me. Regardless, I intend to find out this weekend on a day trip to the Gunks. My intent is to take her up one of the easy classics--5.3 or 5.4--all the way to the top. She shouldn't be too challenged physically, but, mentally, she'll either have to embrace it (at which point she'll become hooked) or she'll freeze and swear it off (and I'll know where she stands). What I seek from the RC community: What are other good ways to plant the climbing seed? Special considerations so as to not scare her off? What would be an ideal route? (I'm thinking Yum Yum presently)
There'd better be a trip report when you get back.
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clee03m
Jun 17, 2007, 3:08 PM
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Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
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percious
Jun 17, 2007, 4:01 PM
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clee03m wrote: Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
I kind of agree with this. Take her on High E. :-P[/:P] ok maybe not. Why not just set a TR somewhere down on the Uberfall for the first time? The place has a great vibe and you can always stroll down the carriage road later in the day and check out a 1-pitch wonder or something.
I remember my first time out, and I was able to second a 5.8(1 pitch), but rappelling made me really nervous.
If multi pitch it must be, I think hiring a guide to take you up will take a ton of pressure off you and will be worth the $300. That way if she has a bad time she can't really blame it on you. With a guide you will probably be able to climb together, since it is common for a guide to use two ropes with his seconds climbing at the same time. Plus, guides have good action plans should you need to bail, and they have great ways of getting lost pieces back without leaving your GF on the ledge alone, belaying you from the top. If she likes it, day 2 you can be her guide.
How many beginners have you taken up thus far?
-percious
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uzibear
Jun 17, 2007, 5:29 PM
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here's my opinion on taking a complete beginner: toprope; you don't know if she'll freak out or be able to clean your gear, or you'll have something serious
i tried to take my dad up munginella in yosemite and it was a bad idea, he was pulling on the rope to get up at points, terrified, and i didn't give him near enough practice with cleaning gear and belaying; i still regret that, glad it didn't go wrong
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uzibear
Jun 17, 2007, 5:34 PM
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try to remember what it was like the very first time you ever climbed; if you're like me, you were freaked out, and that was a little toprope; remember "it's just a 5.5" makes no sense to a beginner; they think they're going to die; you have to convince them they're not, that they can trust the gear; so go topropping, that way you can lower her if she can't hack it
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gunkiemike
Jun 17, 2007, 6:30 PM
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clee03m wrote: Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
Wait a minute - I thought women were attracted to a man's bank account. Now you tell me it's all about looks?
What's a rich, polite, gentle, kind, considerate, romantic butt-ugly guy to do?
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tradrenn
Jun 18, 2007, 2:58 AM
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My sugestion would be to listen to Rgold guy, he knows a thing or two about climbing at the Gunks.
My suggestion would be to do Bunny 5.4 on toprope with no gear for her to clean (the hardest part is the first 20-25 feet)
If it was me I would try to have a serious discussion with my girl and I would tell her that it doesn't matter if she climbs or not, but I would appreciate if she could understand my love for it.
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granite_grrl
Jun 18, 2007, 1:09 PM
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mheyman wrote: In reply to: Heheheeh ... you said: In reply to:kicked him in the jimmy you just passed the test Yeah, granite grrl passes the test over and over!
What? I didn't say that...I think it was Climbsomething, and she totally passes the test.
It first I was going to flame rgold for wanting to get her on something exposed, maybe kinda scarey, but I think he clairified himself in the last post.
Something with a bit of exposure, multipitch, that she finishes will give her a great feeling of accomplishment. But get on something as easy as climbing a ladder, she'll be challanged enough by her head.
Or you could challange her physically, and keep the fear portion to a minimum. I think the key is not to give her too many things that she has to deal with and let the fear and pressure overwhelm her. Whether you challange her physically or mentally and how much is something the OP needs to decide knowing the personality of his gf.
I think you should ease her into it a little bit, don't overwhelm her. I say this from my experiance of getting back into climbing after my accident. My husband did some stupid things the first bunch of times that we get back out climbing. I begged him to let the first step to my recovery be to enjoy the day of climbing. I think he wanted me to start facing my fears too early. If something had happened early when I was getting back into climbing (like him falling when soloing a short 20-30ft waterfall that he insisted to solo the first time we went out ice climbing this last year) I think it would have been too much for me and I would have sworn off climbing. Thank god that didn't happen.
Watch your girl, be sensitive to her. I still stand that the first step to climbing is having fun and enjoying yourself.
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mheyman
Jun 18, 2007, 1:51 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: mheyman wrote: In reply to: Heheheeh ... you said: In reply to:kicked him in the jimmy you just passed the test Yeah, granite grrl passes the test over and over! What? I didn't say that...I think it was Climbsomething, and she totally passes the test. You're right of course. Darn!
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microbarn
Jun 18, 2007, 2:21 PM
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rgold's second post clarified things a lot. I could see you choosing that option.
Something that is being left out that is worth considering. There are a TON of things to learn when you go multipitching. As a guide, you deal with this daily and you have methods of teaching people things without the ambush of everything at once.
IF you can arrange for several repetitions of the important information AND you take things very slow for them... then I can see the multipitch being a good option.
My default recommendation is for top roping something easy. This is partly because you don't have to be as good of a teacher. Top roping allows you to teach things as they arise, and it keeps you closer for communication if needed.
Based on the fact that you are introducing your gf to climbing for the first time, I assume you are not an experienced teacher. So, I would recommend top roping.
PS, I enjoy climbing tremendously, but the exposure is something I am still working myself up to. Most people don't want to be overwhelmed with exposure on their first trip out. Be prepared to work slowly up to the exposure.
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burrito
Jun 18, 2007, 2:25 PM
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clee03m wrote: Long, short, multiple pitch, single pitch, it doesn't matter. She will either love it or not. It's kind of like asking a girl out. It's not how you ask her out, really. It's you. If I think you are cute, I'll respond. If you look like an ass, no matter how smooth, you are turned down.
That's crazy talk. It's all about giving things a chance (climbing, dating, whatever). My boyfriend took me to the Gunks for the first time in January of 2006, put me on what we now both agree were ridiculous climbs for a complete beginner (Baby, Arch), and I thought it was awful. Like, wanted to kill him, wondered why I'd ever hooked up with him, decided I wasn't destined to climb outside ever again kind of awful. But after we talked about it and figured out what scared me (exposure, mainly) and what I liked (fun climbing), he started finding routes that were better suited for me at that stage in my climbing life, and voila! I just led my first 5.6 there last weekend, just over a year after a near-meltdown over the same grade on TR. Proof that a little patience and thoughtfulness goes a long way.
She will get more out of the experience if you consider what SHE might like. Nothing too steep, nothing to exposed, and you should be good to go. And probably guaranteed another trip there with her in the future...
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on_belay_hombre
Jun 18, 2007, 3:17 PM
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HAHA....I love it!
My first climb at the Gunks was beginner's delight and it was awesome. The second was Shockley's ceiling...and I was hooked. Now there's a gf test! I hear that route actually has a reputation....
just kidding. I agree with the whole "ease into it" approach as well. Since I know you like this girl zealot, take it easy and let it be her idea to get addicted =P. Plus she seems really cool anyways, so even if she doesnt end up addicted to climbing you might have somthing there anyways...
Climb On!
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cellardoor
Jun 18, 2007, 3:41 PM
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for research purposes, if you haven't climbed all of the 5.3s at the gunks, there are youtube videos of some beginners climbing each one. just search 'gunks' on youtube.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 18, 2007, 4:42 PM
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If you really want a climbing GF and not someone who just climbs for you then do everything RGold suggests. If she likes the full experience then she will be back for more. if not, good riddance If you are not totally confident, competent, relaxed and patient don't bother trying to teach her yourself unless you just want to get rid of her. You have to be a good teacher and know how to give the student a confidence inspireing day. plan for success not failure. a few weeks ago I watched a so called guide (annother tool with the dredded AMGA TOP ROPE certification) send a student up on a 5.10+ their first time climbing outdoors. What a tool. The student got spanked, scared and humiliated and most likly will not climb outside again.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 18, 2007, 5:15 PM
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Wellllll?
Rc.com reconn records show that our OP has in fact logged on to the site this fine Monday morning....
We're waiting!
At least give us a sentence or two, and if you feel the need to elaborate, you can do that later.
Both days were stellar for climbing, although a little muggy...unless of course you got stuck in the rainshower late Saturday..... No one to blame but yourslef if that happened, though...
Anyway - I really hope the narcistic tone in the original post is just one of those flukes of internet speak, and you really don't have such an attitude of superiority. Cause if that's the case, I have the feeling you took a bit of a whipper yourself in this outing.....
And, if that's the case, and she said she DID like climbing, but not the way things went this time..... may I suggest having her check out the Sterling Ropes Goddesses on the Rocks workshop that will be coming up at the New River Gorge this autumn.
That is near enough to you, and will be a great place for her to get to gain some climbing skills and meet other women who climb and have a great weekend to boot.
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cracklover
Jun 18, 2007, 5:25 PM
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Yup. Very curious to hear how it went.
GO
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zealotnoob
Jun 18, 2007, 7:36 PM
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First off, I regret the superficial implication that this was a "test." It was meant to be cheeky. That being said, isn't pretty much everything in dating a test? :)
Second, to fill in a little background: she had been toproping once and to a rock gym a couple times, spread over the past year, so there was a very base level of familiarity.
TR:
With a long drive from Philly to the Gunks, I had hoped to get an early start. 600am was the plan. We left at 630.
"30 mins late," my mind nagged, "time...effeciency is essencential!" This was the part of my brain that wants to go alpine--the part that wants every minutia of a trip to make an elegant contribution the whole. "This is a different kind of trip," I resolved, "I HAVE to go with the flow."
A quick stop to pay homage at Rock and Snow, then the Bistro Mountain Store and we were parked and headed up the Stairmaster.
My intent was to climb Betty (5.3) as the highlight of our day, following a TR tutorial on P1 of Finger Locks (5.5). Of course, the guide wall was thronged. I consulted the guide book and spotted Easy V (5.3) over by Arrow.
We took our time getting the gear ready and went over the concepts.
Teachers make bad students.
By invoking this generalization I don't mean to say my that gf, a teacher of inner-city kids with behavioral problems, didn't listen to me. It was just hard to tell.
I climbed the first pitch, which was long and slightly slabby, with soloing in mind, set up a TR achor and rapped down, leaving the gear for her to clean.
She climbed it without pause, leaving a tricky cam for me to clean.
Seeing that she was completely unphased upon returning her to terra firma, I went over the plan for completing the second pitch. She would belay me to the top of P1, this time on TR, I'd bring her up, then we'd have to traverse the GT ledge about 40', then complete the last short section, which contained the crux.
After bringing her up to the GT ledge I asked her how she felt about walking unroped across the ledge to the beginning of the next pitch. The ledge is a good ten feet wide and is perfectly flat. Nonetheless, I still get a little freaked walking it, naked of the systems of protection I'm used to having in exposed placed. She shrugged, "yeah, that's fine," and untied her knot.
Following me across the ledge, coming out of the corner of the first pitch, we attained full-view of the landscape. Gorgeous.
"Woah, I didn't realize how high we are," she said. I smiled internally. "We're not really going up there?" she asked, pointing at a V-notch in a typical Gunks roof, which comprises the crux of the route.
"You're going to rock it," I told her, trying her off to a large tree. She put me on belay and I set off.
"Okay, but don't fall."
I climbed the pitch, taking note of the key moves I used, in case I'd need to offer beta. I put her on belay and she proceeded up.
I heard my name drift in the breeze as she approached the crux. "You got it hon!" I offerred.
I saw her head appear through the notch. "I don't like you right now," she said, showing her uncertainty of the situation.
"I know you can do this."
"I know I can do it too, but I don't want to," she stated.
"Had I pushed too far?" I wondered for a split second, as she pulled through the crux with hardly an issue.
I brought her up and we relaxed, both of us happy.
To this point I hadn't made up my mind whether it would be best to walk-off or I should lower her, or just teach her to rappel. Everything having gone so smoothly and having noted a nest of webbing on a tree set back from the ledge about chest-height--an ideal placement--I decided to go with the rappel.
I showed her the setup and showed her how she could weight test everything while still being attached to the anchor.
I then rapped down to be in place to give her a fire-man's belay. On the way down I noted a short free hanging section that made me wonder how she would handle it.
She set herself up and slowly proceeded down. Coming to the free hanging section, "what do I do now?!"
"Continue on babe."
And she did.
We traversed to some chains near the top of the first pitch and repeated the process.
"That was way better than the first one," she commented, having enjoyed that she could keep her feet on the wall.
To cap off the day we headed back over to the guide wall to find Finger Locks open for business. I quickly racked up, climbed and setup a TR.
My gf enjoyed watching a husband and wife couple climbing a thin slabby section to our left. "She was so happy to have made it through the hard part...and they had a little celebration on top," she told me once I got down.
Then she started up the slabby hand to finger crack that is Finger Locks or Cedar Box (5.5)
I've seen the crux, a short vertical section with a thank-god tree on top, shut several of my newbie friends down. But not my gf. She pulled right through it, comitting to the moves right off the bat.
"That was a fun one! Not scary at all," she said.
I climbed it once more to clean our anchor. At the tope I met the couple who had been on the route to our left. I mentioned how I was bringing my gf out for the first time.
"Well, did you see that thread on RC.com?" the gentleman asked me.
"Yup, that was me," I chuckled.
We chatted about some of your replies, the Shockley's incident, in particular, which I hadn't yet read.
The couple let me rap down on their rope, ending an excellent day at the Gunks.
I just got a text from my gf that she's been bragging to her friends at work about our Sunday, and has been receiving some props! She also said that the "craving is set."
In retrospect, I may have pushed her a little hard. Her work makes her exceptionally good at handling stressful situations without showing signs. Not seeing signs of stress, I kept on pushing.
On the other hand, she owned it.
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cracklover
Jun 18, 2007, 8:03 PM
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Nice work, and thanks for the TR. I wish you many years of happy climbing together. Or, failing that, I hope I'm nowhere near the two of you when the big Shockley's type fight happens! Yuch, I hate hearing relationships explode at the Gunks.
Seriously, best of luck.
Cheers!
GO
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bobruef
Jun 18, 2007, 8:07 PM
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Man-o-man, it's good to read a trip report like that one. Gave me a good smile at my desk this afternoon. Glad things worked out taking the gf to the Gunks. Sounds like they couldn't have gone better.
Congrats... sounds like you've got a keeper
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mheyman
Jun 18, 2007, 8:42 PM
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bobruef wrote: Gave me a good smile at my desk this afternoon. Glad things worked out taking the gf to the Gunks.
My feelings exactly and glad to hear that things went so well.
You may or may not have done this, but if you take responsibility for a beginner, and you rappel first, then it is often a good idea to set up their rappel device / rope path in such a way that they can comfortably wait and do not have too change anything critical before they rappel.
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zealotnoob
Jun 18, 2007, 9:32 PM
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Might you have a link for the Goddesses event? She's a huge fan of the New, albeit, for the Gauley, but the scope of her interest may now spread.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 19, 2007, 2:04 AM
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The dates for the Goddesses on the Rocks New River Gorge event are September 29 - 30. So far, I don't see any links with information specifically about this weekend, other than the simple listing at
http://www.sterlingrope.com/.../climbing_events.asp, which says to watch for details.
I volunteered with the last one, at Joshua Tree, and hope to do so again at the New. I can vouche for the fact it's a high quality weekend and don't doubt your girlfriend would gain a lot from it.
If she searches for "Streling Ropes + Goddesses on the Rocks," she will find links to some of the past events, with lots of information on what to expect. And she could definitely contact Sonya at Sterling Ropes(http://www.sterlingrope.com) and ask to have her name added to the emailing list to insure she gets the info in a timely manner.
Nice to read what a great day it seems you both had. I remember being totally sketched on that section of Fingerlocks. My excuses are that it was wet, and it was a mock lead under the eagle-eye watchful gaze of Taino.....hahaha. But it took me soooooooo long to commit to that move.
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curt
Jun 19, 2007, 2:36 AM
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zealotnoob wrote: ...After bringing her up to the GT ledge I asked her how she felt about walking unroped across the ledge to the beginning of the next pitch. The ledge is a good ten feet wide and is perfectly flat. Nonetheless, I still get a little freaked walking it, naked of the systems of protection I'm used to having in exposed placed. She shrugged, "yeah, that's fine," and untied her knot...
Nice TR, but don't ever, ever, ever do this again with a n00b. It isn't really any problem to keep your partner on belay while they walk across the GT ledge.
Curt
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zealotnoob
Jun 19, 2007, 1:13 PM
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Your sentiment is appreciated. However, for that particular circumstance, I stand by my decision.
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rgold
Jun 19, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Zealot's girfriend is one tough cookie. Sounds like he could have done just about anything and it would have turned out ok. It's just my opinion, but I think he stepped way out of line. This post isn't for him, but for others who might view his TR as a model for their own experiences with beginners.
First, I would note that, for most beginners, the second pitch of Easy V is one of the worst possible first climbs among the easy ones. It is arguably undergraded and involves peculiar moves through a chimney-notch that do not come naturally to many. It is odd that after soliciting and receiving so much advice, Zealot decided to pick something no one recommended.
Having a beginner do their first rappel with the instructor at the other end of the rope is also a bad idea. The hardest thing about rapelling for most beginners is getting started. Leaving them alone for that experience is hardly what I'd call a good beginning. And if Zealot didn't do what mheyman recommended and let his girlfriend set up the rappel herself, that would be criminal negligence in my book.
Walking across the GT ledge unroped with someone on their first day out is also, in my opinion, an abdication of the role of protector that the experienced person should embrace. The idea that a beginner, who has absolutely no judgement regarding their own solidity, can be reliably consulted on the question of their own security is absurd. Anyone with a lot of experience with beginners will tell you that, no matter how talented they seem, they can also fall completely unexpectedly in the simplest of situations. Belaying across the ledge is absolutely trivial and couldn't add more than a minute or[ two to the climb. I don't think there is any excuse for unroping a beginner in spot with fatal exposure.
One of the interesting things about climbing is that you can make a lot of mistakes and not even notice the potential consequences. And when nothing bad happens, it is easy to take the outcome as justifying the bad choices that were made. This TR is one of the better advertisements I've seen for hiring a guide.
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zealotnoob
Jun 19, 2007, 9:18 PM
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Thanks rgold. It is apparent that you have much experience in these matters.
I definately over-stepped the guide/client boundary.
To my detriment, I am not a guide, but, in my defense, my gf is not a simple client. I know and trust her capabilities and, in the moment, did what I thought would make her feel most comfortable.
Looking back, given the supposed clarity of retrospection, I might have done things differently.
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flowin
Jun 19, 2007, 11:23 PM
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glad she enjoyed and thanks for the TR.
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curt
Jun 20, 2007, 1:53 AM
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zealotnoob wrote: Your sentiment is appreciated. However, for that particular circumstance, I stand by my decision.
Yes, for about 8 hours I see.
Curt
(This post was edited by curt on Jun 20, 2007, 1:54 AM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 20, 2007, 3:24 AM
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Heck I have been climbing for over 25yrs and i wouldn't bother unropeing on the traverse ledge even with my ropegun partners. it takes more time to untie and coil the ropes than it does to belay accrose the ledge. With A beginner no way. On the rap, it sucks teaching raps on multi pitch and it sucks even worse if there is only one guide. The only safe way to have a beginner rap multi pitch is to have one guide at the top with the student and annother guide at the next station. There are other things that you can do in an emergancy such as putting the student in the rap and then the guide raps to the next station to provide firemans and get the student into the next station. That would only be in an emergancy. Walk off and teach the rappeling on a short less than half pitch crag. Heck its not even safe to lower the student to the next rap station as you can't trust the student to get clipped into the station correctly.
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percious
Jun 20, 2007, 12:10 PM
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If you know how to rig it, you can connect her to you and rappel together on a single device (very cozy). Another alternative is to belay her from the top on one line while she raps the other one. At the very least, I would have her rappel set up before heading down with an auto-block for both of your setups.
Untying at the GT? Crikey! Maybe she thinks she will be fine, but what would you say to her parents if she fell!? At least short rope her over to take away the risk of fatality.
Sounds like you had a good day out though. Pictures speak 1000 words.
-percious
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zealotnoob
Jun 20, 2007, 12:41 PM
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I was referring more to the rap setup. mheyman had some good ideas in a PM:
Method 1) Extend the seconds belay device as if they were going to use an auto-block below their belay device. It’s a good technique to know anyhow, Using a fireman’s belay as you did is great for a second though.
Place their belay device on the rope at a spot where they will be comfortable. They will be able to move a bit and won’t be tied directly to the tensioned rope while you are rappelling.
Method 2) Place their belay device on the rope as if the second were going to rappel. Tie a small loop in the rope below the belay device. Use an overhand. You could put a biner through the knot to keep it from getting tight so that it can be more easily untied after it has been weighted. Don’t use a figure eight at least not without a biner through it. It probably will be difficult to untie.
Clip the loop back to the anchor. Double check everything and rappel off the loop. The second unclips and unties the knot. They do not change anything from their belay device to the anchor.
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piton
Jun 20, 2007, 12:48 PM
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rgold wrote: If you're looking for a gym partner, put her on a 40 foot wall with a top-rope where you can bombard her with non-stop beta, inundate her with extravagant praise out of all proportion to anything she's actually doing, and teach her the joy of hang-dogging from the very first step. Seems to me that people are recommending you do everything possible to hide what climbing is about in the hope that she'll like it.
love it!
Rich why bother with this site rc.com it's the melting pot for gumby aholes that hang dog up routes perfect ex. is JT5.2 post
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happiegrrrl
Jun 20, 2007, 2:51 PM
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Wellll....Everyone lived to climb another day.
But, as RGold said, and as I have heard from many other oldtimers - we often make mistakes and for unknowst reasons, luck of the draw or whatever, get handed the Get Outa Jail Free card.
OP mentioned some other people had a little celebration atop the pitch they had done. Maybe an idea for our new GunksGirl would be a gift of the Freedom of the Hills.
I am of the belief that climbing is all about self-responsibility. Personally, I wouldn't take out a newbie who is looking at me to make sure they don't die. And - death is an option, each and every time we rope up.
That is why, when I started, I hired guides to teach me technique, skills and ethics.
Though of course I went out with people early on who were not guides, I had already built my foundation(shaky as it was) to a degree that I was able to take full responsibility for myself. Of course I knew diddly, but even so - I understood that the onus was on me to survive. I considered it a perk, and still do, that my partners watch out for me.
I learned early how to vet my partners carefully, and understood it was better to be grounded for a day(and developing orienteering skills, hiking the cliffs, photographing, and practicing gear at ground level)than to climb with someone who I wasn't confident in their ability to be fully self-responsible. I turned down many, many, many an offer to get out there. When I did rope up with a new person, it was(and is) with the understanding that I MUST be prepared to walk away if need be, or to insist at climbing levels that I feel confident in my ability to not fall. As some people know, I always do a "getting to know you" pitch first time out. More than once, a "5.9 leader" has shown true colors on a 5.3 line.....
Better safe than sorry. I think that whenever a person finds another who wants to climb, humility dictates that we allow them the ability to develop there sense of self-responsibility, as opposed to "teaching them." And when we do pass along that which we have learned, it is with that same humility - "this is what someone showed me, and I'd like to pass it along to you." To me, that's the spirit of the climbing community.
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rgold
Jun 20, 2007, 4:46 PM
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Happiegrrrl makes many good points, but her situation is a bit different, because she came upon an independent interest in climbing. In the situation in this thread, and in many cases, there is a boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic, in which the novice is encouraged (and often pressured) to embrace the passion of the significant other. Zealot says his use of the term "test" was tongue-in-cheek, but in many such cases, there is an implicit if not explicit demand, "share my interest in climbing or else I'll be looking for someone else."
In these cases, the novice is propelled, not only by an interest in climbing, but also by a desire to stay connected to a climber. This can set up a dominant-submissive climbing relationship that can last for many years, well after the erstwhile beginner has achieved a high level of climbing competence. The hallmarks of such a relationship are the submissive's ongoing dependence on the dominant, which results, among other things, in a failure to learn many of the corollary climbing skills that make one genuinely independent.
Of course, at the beginning of a climber's education (if you are not one of those who is, essentially, teaching yourself), reliance on an experienced instructor is intrinsic to the learning process. This unavoidable dependence places a heavy burden on the instructor, who is totally responsible for the student's life and health, and who must answer to loved ones and possibly legal authorities if anything goes wrong.
Guides nowadays get a lot of training in how to deal with the situations that arise in the teaching of beginners. But, a few super-special techniques that almost never get used notwithstanding, almost all of this is common sense combined with that special mental attitude required for safe climbing: the ability to anticipate all the bad things that could happen without being either paralyzed or demoralized by the prospects. Blissful ignorance is not a prescription for a happy ending.
So, if you are going to take out beginners, I think you need to prepare yourself for a role that involves more skills and different attitudes than you may have as a climber persuing your own recreation. Though I am fond, in other contexts, of heaping scorn on some of the illusions I think are promoted by the self-rescue "industry," this does not mean that one should not know these techniques. There are at least two good books on the subject, both with "self-rescue" in the title, one by David J. Fasulo and one by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis.
Less well-known is a book called The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques by Nigel Shephard. This has a Euro flavor that conflicts, in some cases, with American sensibilities and practices, but it devotes a lot of attention to guiding and instruction concerns, addressing many of the issues that come up in the exams for various instructor certificates awarded in Britain. I imagine the AMGA's guide's manual would be very useful, but it is prohibitively priced for non-members (if indeed it is available at all).
Finally, I think it is the job of any teacher to render themselves irrelevant. (As I mentioned above, the opposite often happens in climbing relationships.) Recognizing that total safety is not achievable, one still has to do one's best to help students to become independently competent, which means to be able to completely take over in case the situation requires it. This is most definitely not what one even thinks about on the first day out, but neither should it be postponed indefinitely.
Teaching someone to climb should not be a casual, carefree decision. At least for a while, your student will have to rely on your skills and judgement to keep them amused, motivated, and alive. You better not be found wanting.
There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell; and with these in mind I say, Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.
Edward Whymper
Scrambles Amongst the Alps
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paulraphael
Jun 21, 2007, 3:00 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Heck I have been climbing for over 25yrs and i wouldn't bother unropeing on the traverse ledge even with my ropegun partners. it takes more time to untie and coil the ropes than it does to belay accrose the ledge.
My first couple of years at the gunks my partners and I used to walk unroped on those ledges with impunity. Then I wised up a bit and realized the potential for climbers, hikers, tourists, or forces of nature to knock rocks off from the top. There's a ton of traffic on those cliffs, and you often have no way of knowing what's going on up there. It would only take a small stone to ruin your day.
Now I only wander unroped if the ledge is protected by a serious roof. And I wouldn't let an inexperienced person do it, if only just to keep myself from having a heart attack.
Now we stay roped up most of the time, and get from anchor to anchor using mostly hip belays, taking advantage of natural features (blocks, trees, etc.) to minimize fall potential. Only downside is the possibility of knocking rocks onto other people by dragging the rope.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 21, 2007, 3:22 AM
Post #69 of 75
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I don't climb much at the gunks anymore but at cathedral we have lots of wooded traverse ledges. we stay roped up and boogi useing trees as pro. just walk on the uphill side of the tree. Often just sling a tree and run the rope through a biner as a belay. you have enough friction that way to hold a slip and you can pull in the rope fast enough to keep up with a fast hiker. other times we simo hike with the ropes on coils and keep trees between us.
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gblauer
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Jun 21, 2007, 3:44 AM
Post #70 of 75
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I agree wtih everything Rgold is saying.
I am shocked that you would let someone you care about make a 40' traverse on the GT ledge. Since most people would not do this, I have to ask myself if this is a complete and total troll.
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jt512
Jun 21, 2007, 3:58 AM
Post #71 of 75
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gblauer wrote: Since most people would not do this, I have to ask myself if this is a complete and total troll.
If most people wouldn't do it, then more likely, it is one of the minority who would, no?
Jay
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granite_grrl
Jun 21, 2007, 12:46 PM
Post #72 of 75
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I've seen people walk around on ledges unroped. The first trip to the Gunks this year the rap station was congested, so my partner and a guide un-anchored and hung out on the ledge.
I didn't like it, but their choice I guess, I won't do it. Remember, complacency kills.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 21, 2007, 3:15 PM
Post #73 of 75
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I offered a belay to my partner, who had 20+ years climbing and had just led Son of Easy O(5.8), a belay last week, on the ledge over to the Baby rap anchors at P1. He declined; it was his educated choice.
I have done some GT ledge walking with no belay, as have many of us. But I would think most of us consciously heighten our senses when doing so. It would be a time when a sudden appearance of wasps, a snake, skittering rocks or a higher party's rap lines raining down upon us would have to be relegated to a "will not react" status, since doing so could easily send us over the edge(literally). I don't think a newish(meaning not competant to be fully self-responsible) person should be encouraged to do so.
I have to wonder why OP actually had his friend untie, as now she'd have to retie, with the chance for error at the rap. Perhaps he was employing poetic license in his TR, and his words got away from him in the moment(who was it that said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story?"), and didn't actually do so...?
At any rate, this is all good discussion for anyone who is taking out new people or climbing with people that may be newish.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 21, 2007, 8:16 PM
Post #74 of 75
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There are pleanty of scenarios where a skilled, experienced climber may be unroped on the GT ledge (keg partys on HE, etc) but guideing a new student is simply Not one of those unroped situations.
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PIT0N
Jul 8, 2007, 5:37 AM
Post #75 of 75
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