|
cracklover
Jun 18, 2007, 8:03 PM
Post #51 of 75
(2694 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Nice work, and thanks for the TR. I wish you many years of happy climbing together. Or, failing that, I hope I'm nowhere near the two of you when the big Shockley's type fight happens! Yuch, I hate hearing relationships explode at the Gunks.
Seriously, best of luck.
Cheers!
GO
|
|
|
|
|
bobruef
Jun 18, 2007, 8:07 PM
Post #52 of 75
(2689 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 884
|
Man-o-man, it's good to read a trip report like that one. Gave me a good smile at my desk this afternoon. Glad things worked out taking the gf to the Gunks. Sounds like they couldn't have gone better.
Congrats... sounds like you've got a keeper 
|
|
|
|
|
mheyman
Jun 18, 2007, 8:42 PM
Post #53 of 75
(2647 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 607
|
bobruef wrote: Gave me a good smile at my desk this afternoon. Glad things worked out taking the gf to the Gunks.
My feelings exactly and glad to hear that things went so well.
You may or may not have done this, but if you take responsibility for a beginner, and you rappel first, then it is often a good idea to set up their rappel device / rope path in such a way that they can comfortably wait and do not have too change anything critical before they rappel.
|
|
|
|
|
zealotnoob
Jun 18, 2007, 9:32 PM
Post #54 of 75
(2618 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 525
|
Might you have a link for the Goddesses event? She's a huge fan of the New, albeit, for the Gauley, but the scope of her interest may now spread.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Jun 19, 2007, 2:04 AM
Post #55 of 75
(2556 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
The dates for the Goddesses on the Rocks New River Gorge event are September 29 - 30. So far, I don't see any links with information specifically about this weekend, other than the simple listing at
http://www.sterlingrope.com/.../climbing_events.asp, which says to watch for details.
I volunteered with the last one, at Joshua Tree, and hope to do so again at the New. I can vouche for the fact it's a high quality weekend and don't doubt your girlfriend would gain a lot from it.
If she searches for "Streling Ropes + Goddesses on the Rocks," she will find links to some of the past events, with lots of information on what to expect. And she could definitely contact Sonya at Sterling Ropes(http://www.sterlingrope.com) and ask to have her name added to the emailing list to insure she gets the info in a timely manner.
Nice to read what a great day it seems you both had. I remember being totally sketched on that section of Fingerlocks. My excuses are that it was wet, and it was a mock lead under the eagle-eye watchful gaze of Taino.....hahaha. But it took me soooooooo long to commit to that move.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 19, 2007, 2:36 AM
Post #56 of 75
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
zealotnoob wrote: ...After bringing her up to the GT ledge I asked her how she felt about walking unroped across the ledge to the beginning of the next pitch. The ledge is a good ten feet wide and is perfectly flat. Nonetheless, I still get a little freaked walking it, naked of the systems of protection I'm used to having in exposed placed. She shrugged, "yeah, that's fine," and untied her knot...
Nice TR, but don't ever, ever, ever do this again with a n00b. It isn't really any problem to keep your partner on belay while they walk across the GT ledge.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
zealotnoob
Jun 19, 2007, 1:13 PM
Post #57 of 75
(2463 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 525
|
Your sentiment is appreciated. However, for that particular circumstance, I stand by my decision.
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Jun 19, 2007, 8:18 PM
Post #58 of 75
(2395 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
Zealot's girfriend is one tough cookie. Sounds like he could have done just about anything and it would have turned out ok. It's just my opinion, but I think he stepped way out of line. This post isn't for him, but for others who might view his TR as a model for their own experiences with beginners.
First, I would note that, for most beginners, the second pitch of Easy V is one of the worst possible first climbs among the easy ones. It is arguably undergraded and involves peculiar moves through a chimney-notch that do not come naturally to many. It is odd that after soliciting and receiving so much advice, Zealot decided to pick something no one recommended.
Having a beginner do their first rappel with the instructor at the other end of the rope is also a bad idea. The hardest thing about rapelling for most beginners is getting started. Leaving them alone for that experience is hardly what I'd call a good beginning. And if Zealot didn't do what mheyman recommended and let his girlfriend set up the rappel herself, that would be criminal negligence in my book.
Walking across the GT ledge unroped with someone on their first day out is also, in my opinion, an abdication of the role of protector that the experienced person should embrace. The idea that a beginner, who has absolutely no judgement regarding their own solidity, can be reliably consulted on the question of their own security is absurd. Anyone with a lot of experience with beginners will tell you that, no matter how talented they seem, they can also fall completely unexpectedly in the simplest of situations. Belaying across the ledge is absolutely trivial and couldn't add more than a minute or[ two to the climb. I don't think there is any excuse for unroping a beginner in spot with fatal exposure.
One of the interesting things about climbing is that you can make a lot of mistakes and not even notice the potential consequences. And when nothing bad happens, it is easy to take the outcome as justifying the bad choices that were made. This TR is one of the better advertisements I've seen for hiring a guide.
|
|
|
|
|
zealotnoob
Jun 19, 2007, 9:18 PM
Post #59 of 75
(2356 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 525
|
Thanks rgold. It is apparent that you have much experience in these matters.
I definately over-stepped the guide/client boundary.
To my detriment, I am not a guide, but, in my defense, my gf is not a simple client. I know and trust her capabilities and, in the moment, did what I thought would make her feel most comfortable.
Looking back, given the supposed clarity of retrospection, I might have done things differently.
|
|
|
|
|
flowin
Jun 19, 2007, 11:23 PM
Post #60 of 75
(2319 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 120
|
glad she enjoyed and thanks for the TR.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 20, 2007, 1:53 AM
Post #61 of 75
(2295 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
zealotnoob wrote: Your sentiment is appreciated. However, for that particular circumstance, I stand by my decision.
Yes, for about 8 hours I see.
Curt
(This post was edited by curt on Jun 20, 2007, 1:54 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 20, 2007, 3:24 AM
Post #62 of 75
(2253 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Heck I have been climbing for over 25yrs and i wouldn't bother unropeing on the traverse ledge even with my ropegun partners. it takes more time to untie and coil the ropes than it does to belay accrose the ledge. With A beginner no way. On the rap, it sucks teaching raps on multi pitch and it sucks even worse if there is only one guide. The only safe way to have a beginner rap multi pitch is to have one guide at the top with the student and annother guide at the next station. There are other things that you can do in an emergancy such as putting the student in the rap and then the guide raps to the next station to provide firemans and get the student into the next station. That would only be in an emergancy. Walk off and teach the rappeling on a short less than half pitch crag. Heck its not even safe to lower the student to the next rap station as you can't trust the student to get clipped into the station correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
percious
Jun 20, 2007, 12:10 PM
Post #63 of 75
(2225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2005
Posts: 140
|
If you know how to rig it, you can connect her to you and rappel together on a single device (very cozy). Another alternative is to belay her from the top on one line while she raps the other one. At the very least, I would have her rappel set up before heading down with an auto-block for both of your setups.
Untying at the GT? Crikey! Maybe she thinks she will be fine, but what would you say to her parents if she fell!? At least short rope her over to take away the risk of fatality.
Sounds like you had a good day out though. Pictures speak 1000 words.
-percious
|
|
|
|
|
zealotnoob
Jun 20, 2007, 12:41 PM
Post #64 of 75
(2212 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 525
|
I was referring more to the rap setup. mheyman had some good ideas in a PM:
Method 1) Extend the seconds belay device as if they were going to use an auto-block below their belay device. It’s a good technique to know anyhow, Using a fireman’s belay as you did is great for a second though.
Place their belay device on the rope at a spot where they will be comfortable. They will be able to move a bit and won’t be tied directly to the tensioned rope while you are rappelling.
Method 2) Place their belay device on the rope as if the second were going to rappel. Tie a small loop in the rope below the belay device. Use an overhand. You could put a biner through the knot to keep it from getting tight so that it can be more easily untied after it has been weighted. Don’t use a figure eight at least not without a biner through it. It probably will be difficult to untie.
Clip the loop back to the anchor. Double check everything and rappel off the loop. The second unclips and unties the knot. They do not change anything from their belay device to the anchor.
|
|
|
|
|
piton
Jun 20, 2007, 12:48 PM
Post #65 of 75
(2208 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1034
|
rgold wrote: If you're looking for a gym partner, put her on a 40 foot wall with a top-rope where you can bombard her with non-stop beta, inundate her with extravagant praise out of all proportion to anything she's actually doing, and teach her the joy of hang-dogging from the very first step. Seems to me that people are recommending you do everything possible to hide what climbing is about in the hope that she'll like it.
 love it!
Rich why bother with this site rc.com it's the melting pot for gumby aholes that hang dog up routes perfect ex. is JT5.2 post
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Jun 20, 2007, 2:51 PM
Post #66 of 75
(2165 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
Wellll....Everyone lived to climb another day.
But, as RGold said, and as I have heard from many other oldtimers - we often make mistakes and for unknowst reasons, luck of the draw or whatever, get handed the Get Outa Jail Free card.
OP mentioned some other people had a little celebration atop the pitch they had done. Maybe an idea for our new GunksGirl would be a gift of the Freedom of the Hills.
I am of the belief that climbing is all about self-responsibility. Personally, I wouldn't take out a newbie who is looking at me to make sure they don't die. And - death is an option, each and every time we rope up.
That is why, when I started, I hired guides to teach me technique, skills and ethics.
Though of course I went out with people early on who were not guides, I had already built my foundation(shaky as it was) to a degree that I was able to take full responsibility for myself. Of course I knew diddly, but even so - I understood that the onus was on me to survive. I considered it a perk, and still do, that my partners watch out for me.
I learned early how to vet my partners carefully, and understood it was better to be grounded for a day(and developing orienteering skills, hiking the cliffs, photographing, and practicing gear at ground level)than to climb with someone who I wasn't confident in their ability to be fully self-responsible. I turned down many, many, many an offer to get out there. When I did rope up with a new person, it was(and is) with the understanding that I MUST be prepared to walk away if need be, or to insist at climbing levels that I feel confident in my ability to not fall. As some people know, I always do a "getting to know you" pitch first time out. More than once, a "5.9 leader" has shown true colors on a 5.3 line.....
Better safe than sorry. I think that whenever a person finds another who wants to climb, humility dictates that we allow them the ability to develop there sense of self-responsibility, as opposed to "teaching them." And when we do pass along that which we have learned, it is with that same humility - "this is what someone showed me, and I'd like to pass it along to you." To me, that's the spirit of the climbing community.
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Jun 20, 2007, 4:46 PM
Post #67 of 75
(2129 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
Happiegrrrl makes many good points, but her situation is a bit different, because she came upon an independent interest in climbing. In the situation in this thread, and in many cases, there is a boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic, in which the novice is encouraged (and often pressured) to embrace the passion of the significant other. Zealot says his use of the term "test" was tongue-in-cheek, but in many such cases, there is an implicit if not explicit demand, "share my interest in climbing or else I'll be looking for someone else."
In these cases, the novice is propelled, not only by an interest in climbing, but also by a desire to stay connected to a climber. This can set up a dominant-submissive climbing relationship that can last for many years, well after the erstwhile beginner has achieved a high level of climbing competence. The hallmarks of such a relationship are the submissive's ongoing dependence on the dominant, which results, among other things, in a failure to learn many of the corollary climbing skills that make one genuinely independent.
Of course, at the beginning of a climber's education (if you are not one of those who is, essentially, teaching yourself), reliance on an experienced instructor is intrinsic to the learning process. This unavoidable dependence places a heavy burden on the instructor, who is totally responsible for the student's life and health, and who must answer to loved ones and possibly legal authorities if anything goes wrong.
Guides nowadays get a lot of training in how to deal with the situations that arise in the teaching of beginners. But, a few super-special techniques that almost never get used notwithstanding, almost all of this is common sense combined with that special mental attitude required for safe climbing: the ability to anticipate all the bad things that could happen without being either paralyzed or demoralized by the prospects. Blissful ignorance is not a prescription for a happy ending.
So, if you are going to take out beginners, I think you need to prepare yourself for a role that involves more skills and different attitudes than you may have as a climber persuing your own recreation. Though I am fond, in other contexts, of heaping scorn on some of the illusions I think are promoted by the self-rescue "industry," this does not mean that one should not know these techniques. There are at least two good books on the subject, both with "self-rescue" in the title, one by David J. Fasulo and one by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis.
Less well-known is a book called The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques by Nigel Shephard. This has a Euro flavor that conflicts, in some cases, with American sensibilities and practices, but it devotes a lot of attention to guiding and instruction concerns, addressing many of the issues that come up in the exams for various instructor certificates awarded in Britain. I imagine the AMGA's guide's manual would be very useful, but it is prohibitively priced for non-members (if indeed it is available at all).
Finally, I think it is the job of any teacher to render themselves irrelevant. (As I mentioned above, the opposite often happens in climbing relationships.) Recognizing that total safety is not achievable, one still has to do one's best to help students to become independently competent, which means to be able to completely take over in case the situation requires it. This is most definitely not what one even thinks about on the first day out, but neither should it be postponed indefinitely.
Teaching someone to climb should not be a casual, carefree decision. At least for a while, your student will have to rely on your skills and judgement to keep them amused, motivated, and alive. You better not be found wanting.
There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell; and with these in mind I say, Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.
Edward Whymper
Scrambles Amongst the Alps
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Jun 21, 2007, 3:00 AM
Post #68 of 75
(2053 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
tradmanclimbs wrote: Heck I have been climbing for over 25yrs and i wouldn't bother unropeing on the traverse ledge even with my ropegun partners. it takes more time to untie and coil the ropes than it does to belay accrose the ledge.
My first couple of years at the gunks my partners and I used to walk unroped on those ledges with impunity. Then I wised up a bit and realized the potential for climbers, hikers, tourists, or forces of nature to knock rocks off from the top. There's a ton of traffic on those cliffs, and you often have no way of knowing what's going on up there. It would only take a small stone to ruin your day.
Now I only wander unroped if the ledge is protected by a serious roof. And I wouldn't let an inexperienced person do it, if only just to keep myself from having a heart attack.
Now we stay roped up most of the time, and get from anchor to anchor using mostly hip belays, taking advantage of natural features (blocks, trees, etc.) to minimize fall potential. Only downside is the possibility of knocking rocks onto other people by dragging the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 21, 2007, 3:22 AM
Post #69 of 75
(2041 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
I don't climb much at the gunks anymore but at cathedral we have lots of wooded traverse ledges. we stay roped up and boogi useing trees as pro. just walk on the uphill side of the tree. Often just sling a tree and run the rope through a biner as a belay. you have enough friction that way to hold a slip and you can pull in the rope fast enough to keep up with a fast hiker. other times we simo hike with the ropes on coils and keep trees between us.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Jun 21, 2007, 3:44 AM
Post #70 of 75
(2031 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
I agree wtih everything Rgold is saying.
I am shocked that you would let someone you care about make a 40' traverse on the GT ledge. Since most people would not do this, I have to ask myself if this is a complete and total troll.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 21, 2007, 3:58 AM
Post #71 of 75
(2022 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
gblauer wrote: Since most people would not do this, I have to ask myself if this is a complete and total troll.
If most people wouldn't do it, then more likely, it is one of the minority who would, no?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Jun 21, 2007, 12:46 PM
Post #72 of 75
(1980 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
I've seen people walk around on ledges unroped. The first trip to the Gunks this year the rap station was congested, so my partner and a guide un-anchored and hung out on the ledge.
I didn't like it, but their choice I guess, I won't do it. Remember, complacency kills.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Jun 21, 2007, 3:15 PM
Post #73 of 75
(1952 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
I offered a belay to my partner, who had 20+ years climbing and had just led Son of Easy O(5.8), a belay last week, on the ledge over to the Baby rap anchors at P1. He declined; it was his educated choice.
I have done some GT ledge walking with no belay, as have many of us. But I would think most of us consciously heighten our senses when doing so. It would be a time when a sudden appearance of wasps, a snake, skittering rocks or a higher party's rap lines raining down upon us would have to be relegated to a "will not react" status, since doing so could easily send us over the edge(literally). I don't think a newish(meaning not competant to be fully self-responsible) person should be encouraged to do so.
I have to wonder why OP actually had his friend untie, as now she'd have to retie, with the chance for error at the rap. Perhaps he was employing poetic license in his TR, and his words got away from him in the moment(who was it that said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story?"), and didn't actually do so...?
At any rate, this is all good discussion for anyone who is taking out new people or climbing with people that may be newish.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 21, 2007, 8:16 PM
Post #74 of 75
(1894 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
There are pleanty of scenarios where a skilled, experienced climber may be unroped on the GT ledge (keg partys on HE, etc) but guideing a new student is simply Not one of those unroped situations.
|
|
|
|
|
PIT0N
Jul 8, 2007, 5:37 AM
Post #75 of 75
(1800 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2007
Posts: 7
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
