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wanderlustmd
Jun 26, 2007, 6:21 PM
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This happened about 2 weeks ago, and I wanted to really think about it before posting a little report to make sure I address whatever details seem necessary.
Since moving to DC, I've been naturally looking for new partners. I've been lucky enough to find some great people and a few people who are new to climbing. One of the latter essentially dropped me a little over 20 feet on a TR in the gym a few weeks ago; I say “essentially” because it was actually a case of out-of-control lowering, believe it or not.
I met "Amy" through a friend who is a competent and safe climber. Amy had TR’ed before outside, but according to herself had never really learned how to belay. Essentially, her BF took her TRing a few times and basically she climbed and he belayed. My friend invited her to a gym session one afternoon and she asked if I would teach her. I'm not a grizzled, 40 year veteran of hobnails and manila ropes, but I've been climbing long enough to know what not to do and have learned my lessons well. I've taught people how to belay, etc. in the past, but wouldn't call myself a guide. I've never been overly comfortable in a teaching role, though I’ve had people tell me that I explain things well, and while I'm happy to help where I can, I've always told people who question me to find a qualified guide if they really want to learn. But since we were just TRing in the gym that day, what better time to teach a little belaying?
The nice thing about my friend is that she learned things a bit differently from me, so while she was no less safe, she was able to provide a second point of view for Amy to compare and deduce what might work best for her. I stressed that belaying is personal thing and while there are several methods, the most important thing is that the brake hand never leaves the rope, and should always be in braking position unless you are taking in rope. It was a little awkward for her at first, but she picked up the motions pretty quickly.
More sessions followed, with Amy mostly climbing, practicing her belay technique with no climber involved, and just generally getting the feel for it all. She seemed to be doing just fine. A few sessions later, she took her belay test and while she did it correctly in terms of not taking her hand off the brake line, she did neglect to return to the brake position once after taking in some rope and was failed. So we spent more time going over it with her until she had it wired as far as we could see.
Not long after this last session, I strained a shoulder and didn’t climb for about a month. Amy didn’t climb either, but told me that she would practice her technique in the downtime. The first time back, we met at a different gym and she passed the test with flying colors. I wasn’t present for it, but she said she’d practiced and felt she had it down.
I had previously been tested by the gym owner, and while he was quite thorough, he wasn’t there at that time and wasn’t the one who tested her. It was a young girl, who was giving another. Since it had been a while since I had climbed with her, after I tied in I asked Amy to show me her belay, which was fine, so I hung off the rope. She held me, no prob. So then I climbed up a little ways and took a short “fall” onto the TR close to the ground to confirm that she was all set. She caught, held and lowered just fine. I, like most, never really like breaking the ice with a new belayer no matter how solid they seem, but we’d worked together for a while, Amy had passed the test and was holding me fine, and, after all, there comes a point where you have to actually climb something. It doesn’t get much safer than a 30 foot TR in the gym, so I got on an easy route I had climbed several times and knew I wouldn’t fall off of, confirmed I was on belay and started climbing.
I stole a couple glances down as I was headed up and Amy seemed to be doing fine. I reached the top, and looked down.
“Got me?”
“Yep!” She locked off the device.
“Are you sure?” I asked.
Yes, you’re all set.”
“Ok, I’m on you,” I said, and leaned back. And she held me.
“Ok, go ahead and lower me,” I called down, and started to relax.
She started to slowly lower me and I started thinking about my next route when things started to speed up. Then they got faster. At about the 10 foot mark, just I was passing a slight overhand in the wall, looked down to see Amy start to struggle with controlling the descent. Feeling it start to really slip, I managed to say “Easy!!” before hearing the line zing through her device and falling the last 20 feet to the (heavily padded) floor; The friction caused by the TR and her device, as well has her attempt at recovery, rendered it into an extremely rapid descent, and not quite a free fall, but she had pretty much lost all control of the belay (and me).
Amy was clutching her brake hand and repeating “I’m so sorry!” over and over. Her hand was significantly burned by the rope.
I couldn’t believe it. We had spent several full afternoons on belaying, I had explained things to here over and over, had a second qualified source show her another method for comparison, etc. How many people get dropped while being lowered on TR?
I immediately tried to ask her what exactly happened, but she couldn’t really give me a complete answer. I still don’t really know; all she said was “my hand slipped.” I’m guessing that while adjusting the angle of the break line in relation to the device so to ease up friction in order to lower me, her brake hand slipped on the rope and couldn’t recover fast enough, causing the rope to burn her hand, which in turn caused her to loose control of the rope.
Things I Did Wrong:
I should have probably used a fireman’s belay, and would have if my friend had been present, but she wasn’t there that day and there was one other couple in the gym. To be honest, I’ve never really had the need to use those in the first place, one because, like most, I climb in pairs, and two, if I feel someone needs it I usually just don’t have them belay me. It’s a nice backup and was probably a mistake on my part, but by all accounts Amy seemed to be doing fine and TRing a climb that I knew wouldn’t fall is the next logical step. In the event that I was leading with someone who has never belayed a leader, I would definitely always use one, but haven’t run into this circumstance yet. And again, I probably would choose not to climb instead. And, even in a strictly backup environment, I didn’t really like the idea of asking some random dude to hold the rope in case my belayer fucks up.
Even though I stressed all along that she should really take a lesson if she wanted to learn, like I and many people I know have done, I still feel partially responsible for what happened. I’ve climbed with many people, caught more falls than I can count and have never dropped anyone. Especially not while lowering,
Some people may shout “Gri Gri!”, but I think it’s best for people to learn how to belay properly.
Things She Did Wrong:
Well, she dropped me for one.
Afterward, she said she wasn’t “super comfortable” belaying, despite having passed the test. Thanks for letting me know ahead of time :roll:
This is probably a stretch, but the girl who she said passed her didn’t really strike me as all there, if you know what I mean. That doesn’t alleviate responsibility, but it definitely doesn’t help.
I just received a call from her a few days ago, she took a class with the gym on basic climb techniques and wants to go climbing. She feels “all set.” When all is said and done, I know it was an accident and feel like I should give her another chance…after all, no matter how long we have been climbing, we are all capable of mistakes. If this weren’t true, we wouldn’t hear about guides rapping off the end of their ropes, etc. I I, for one, am nowhere near perfect, and don’t feel I should immediately blacklist her as “unsafe” She made a mistake on the learning curve; how is it fair to say “sorry, game over”?
On the other hand, I know that no matter if she eventually is capable of catching a 100 foot whipper with her pinky toes, a large part of me will al
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mushroomsamba
Jun 26, 2007, 6:42 PM
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that sucks dude.
I agree with you, the top rope climb was the next logical step, and I can understand why you didn't do a fireman belay. Still, accidents happen, a good partner of mine had his hand slip while lowering me, it just happened, he caught me but really, it can happen to anyone.
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Julka7
Jun 26, 2007, 7:17 PM
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It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. At some point you do have to take that chance and trust a newbie belayer.
Perhaps, some people are just not meant to be belayers? I would say most people, when learning, tend to grip the rope too tightly and lower you REALLY slowly, which, I always tell them, is way better than REALLY fast.
In regard to climbing with this person again -- whether they deserve another shot or not is a separate question, but I, personally, would never feel comfortable climbing with a person who dropped me once. And what kind of climbing would it be if you're terrified of falling in the gym on a toprope? --a fear that would be totally justified -- if someone can't get the lowering part right after so much practice, how are you going to feel about them catching a fall..
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cracklover
Jun 26, 2007, 7:24 PM
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Interesting story. I don't think I'd have done anything differently than you. At least, nothing that you put into print. There are a couple of things you didn't say, though. The first thing that comes to mind is this: what method did you use? Reason why I ask is this - the previous poster said: accidents happen, your hand can slip while lowering.
Well if the belayer uses two hands to lower the climber (which is what I always teach) - then no - accidents don't just happen. If for whatever reason (a kink in the rope) one hand gets knocked off the rope, you have another hand involved.
So - what did you teach?
As for whether to allow her to belay you or not, I'd say there are two things I'd be concerned with if I were you:
1 - Are you overly anxious about the belay? If this is impacting your climbing, then you need to look after yourself first. Maybe after you get your head together, you can go back to helping her.
2 - Unless and until you are both clear on what went wrong and why, I can't see how there's any guarantee that what went wrong before won't go wrong again. You don't just drop a climber when you're lowering them. Several things have to have gone wrong for that to have happened.
I've seen belayers dodge 10 ton blocks and catch a climber. I've personally gotten yanked upside down and dragged ten feet down a slab and never let any rope slide through the belay device. I'm not saying that a belayer using an ATC competently could never drop a climber, but I'm just saying that it should be a truly exceptional event, caused by many factors going wrong at once. To have it "just happen" is simply not acceptable. Rather, a combination of poor technique, poor application of that technique, and/or poor attention must have been involved.
GO
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jt512
Jun 26, 2007, 7:56 PM
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cracklover wrote: Interesting story. I don't think I'd have done anything differently than you. At least, nothing that you put into print. There are a couple of things you didn't say, though. The first thing that comes to mind is this: what method did you use? Reason why I ask is this - the previous poster said: accidents happen, your hand can slip while lowering. Well if the belayer uses two hands to lower the climber (which is what I always teach) - then no - accidents don't just happen. If for whatever reason (a kink in the rope) one hand gets knocked off the rope, you have another hand involved.
Yeah, this was almost certainly a case of the belayer having had only one hand on the brake side of the rope, and the accident almost certainly would not have occurred if she had had both hands on the brake side of the rope, as one always should have while lowering.
Jay
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dlintz
Jun 26, 2007, 8:24 PM
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: Interesting story. I don't think I'd have done anything differently than you. At least, nothing that you put into print. There are a couple of things you didn't say, though. The first thing that comes to mind is this: what method did you use? Reason why I ask is this - the previous poster said: accidents happen, your hand can slip while lowering. Well if the belayer uses two hands to lower the climber (which is what I always teach) - then no - accidents don't just happen. If for whatever reason (a kink in the rope) one hand gets knocked off the rope, you have another hand involved. Yeah, this was almost certainly a case of the belayer having had only one hand on the brake side of the rope, and the accident almost certainly would not have occurred if she had had both hands on the brake side of the rope, as one always should have while lowering. Jay
Amen! Problem solved.
d.
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diophantus
Jun 26, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Give her another chance, it's not like she could do any worse. 
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boymeetsrock
Jun 26, 2007, 8:57 PM
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Above comments are good so I'm only going to address climbing with Amy again in the future.
Perhaps it would be best for you to focus on going to the gym in a group of atleast three, when Amy is coming. That way she can have that fireman's backup, for a number of belays.
It sounds like Amy needs someone looking over her shoulder and coaching her along. Also acting as a back up at the same time.
She'll get it, but you don't have to risk your neck in the mean time.
-Boy
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jman
Jun 26, 2007, 9:48 PM
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Have seen and heard about too many accidents and close calls that I am pretty particular about who I trade belays with, especially in the gym. What I do with a newish belayer until I get comfortable w them is TR something I know I am not going to fall off of and when lowering keeIn reply to: p a hold on the belayer end of the rope to control my decent if anything goes wrong.
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silascl
Jun 26, 2007, 10:35 PM
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Sounds from your post that you never taught her specifically how to lower a climber. In any low friction setup (may not be relevant in a gym TR depending on setup) both hands should be palm down and around the rope. You should start locked off, and while maintaining your hands around the rope, release the grip on the rope and slowly raise the hands to decrease the friction. If at any point things are moving too fast, drop your hands to the original lock-off position.
If you don't feel like you can control the rate of descent at any angle, use a device like an XP to increase friction, or if that's not available run the rope across your thigh.
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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2007, 11:06 PM
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I have never asked Rock and Ice or Climbing to publish any thing for me but if they are reading your post I hope they publish it.
Your story is so good.
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wanderlustmd
Jun 26, 2007, 11:15 PM
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cracklover wrote: Interesting story. I don't think I'd have done anything differently than you. At least, nothing that you put into print. There are a couple of things you didn't say, though. The first thing that comes to mind is this: what method did you use? Reason why I ask is this - the previous poster said: accidents happen, your hand can slip while lowering. Well if the belayer uses two hands to lower the climber (which is what I always teach) - then no - accidents don't just happen. If for whatever reason (a kink in the rope) one hand gets knocked off the rope, you have another hand involved. So - what did you teach? As for whether to allow her to belay you or not, I'd say there are two things I'd be concerned with if I were you: 1 - Are you overly anxious about the belay? If this is impacting your climbing, then you need to look after yourself first. Maybe after you get your head together, you can go back to helping her. 2 - Unless and until you are both clear on what went wrong and why, I can't see how there's any guarantee that what went wrong before won't go wrong again. You don't just drop a climber when you're lowering them. Several things have to have gone wrong for that to have happened. I've seen belayers dodge 10 ton blocks and catch a climber. I've personally gotten yanked upside down and dragged ten feet down a slab and never let any rope slide through the belay device. I'm not saying that a belayer using an ATC competently could never drop a climber, but I'm just saying that it should be a truly exceptional event, caused by many factors going wrong at once. To have it "just happen" is simply not acceptable. Rather, a combination of poor technique, poor application of that technique, and/or poor attention must have been involved. GO
I told her to use two hands, and hung on the rope to give her an idea of what it is like to hold/lower under tension, but since we weren't able to actually rope up, and she was a little shakey on the motions when first starting out, I spent most of the time on properly taking in rope and the braking position. But I specifically remember this coming up because my friend mentioned that her guide hand only comes off the line when she lowers, since it's best to have two hands on the line.
So that definately came up during our lessons, but it was also not as emphasized as belaying/braking since she wasn't able to actually lower a climber. Moreso after she failed the test the first time for not returning to the brake position. While I didn't stand around see her test, when I had mine I was asked to lower under the tension of the guide pulling on the rope. So she must have at least once in order to passs her test. She could have forgotten afterward; I learned, use and teach the "pinch and slide" method of belaying versus the hand over hand. For this reason, the guide hand doesn't leave the climber side of the rope as often as the latter, and unless you make a point to place the hand on the brake line when lowering, it's easy not to do it.
(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Jun 26, 2007, 11:17 PM)
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c-money
Jun 26, 2007, 11:23 PM
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As others have mentioned above, from your story it sounds like she only practiced her hand sequence for belaying and never actually lowered anyone. That she had issues lowering someone should not really be a surprise.
As her instructor, the responsibility of this is really yours. She was able to fool someone and pass a belay test, but clearly did not know all she needed to know. As a climber responsible for your own choice of belayer and knowing the level of experience your belayer had, the responsibility is yours in that respect as well.
It is often the case that a qualified instructor will provide a better lesson than an inexperienced one. Shelling out for a lesson at the gym rather than teaching a friend yourself may be worth it in the end...
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slablizard
Jun 26, 2007, 11:26 PM
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c-money
Jun 26, 2007, 11:29 PM
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If you were not able to rope up and teach lowering due to the restrictions of your gym, it would be best to either go outside with your own gear to teach a complete lesson, or sign up for a comprehensive lesson at the gym itself.
Do not expect a new belayer to be able to safely lower a climber without them actually having practiced this first! I would not have even suggested that they try to take a belay-test (let alone lower me without supervision) without this experience first.
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erisspirit
Jun 26, 2007, 11:30 PM
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Hmm I would probably let her come climbing with me, but no matter how forgiving, I just don't think I could let her belay me at least for a loooong time. My body would just remember the fall and I wouldn't be able to attempt anything difficult and would never want to sit in the rope to be lowered. At best in that situation I might be afraid to let her lower me and rap down every time.
I have a couple new belayers in my climbing group. When I climb with them, I will only do easy routes, get another belayer, or ask someone to spot them
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c-money
Jun 26, 2007, 11:34 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: I learned, use and teach the "pinch and slide" method of belaying versus the hand over hand.
This may also be a part of your problem.
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notapplicable
Jun 26, 2007, 11:41 PM
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I would give her another chance but gloves and supervision would be a good idea. I lay brick all day so I have raw hide for hands but the heat builds up pretty quickly and some peoples natural reaction is to loosen there grip and then its to late to recover.
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cracklover
Jun 26, 2007, 11:44 PM
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c-money wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: I learned, use and teach the "pinch and slide" method of belaying versus the hand over hand. This may also be a part of your problem.
Not necessarily. But if you use the pinch and slide method (which is what I have taught) there definitely is a transition to make between locked off and lowering, and a brand new belayer may need to be coached through this transition several times before it starts to come naturally.
This is all best done with three people, but can also be done with just you and the learner. If this is the case, you must coach the newbee through each transition. That means you don't tell them to start lowering you until you've determined that they've got both hands on the brake strand of the rope, in the correct position, and have a good solid stance for lowering you.
GO
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zuegma
Jun 27, 2007, 12:18 AM
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In reply to: The friction caused by the TR and her device, as well has her attempt at recovery, rendered it into an extremely rapid descent, and not quite a free fall
this part didnt make sense to me...friction helps control the descent. thats what belay devices do they add friction.
Another thing...based on your location--Maryland--i am going to assume the gym you were climbing at was ET. And of the two i have been to, they boh have TR's that have a lot of built in friction at the top, that sometimes result in me having to literally feed the rope through the belay device to overcome the friction. Out of couriosity i would be interested to know where you were climbing
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eellis
Jun 27, 2007, 12:45 AM
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Slablizard- Many Many people have been dropped due to improperly using a Gri Gri.... Dozens.
(This post was edited by eellis on Jun 27, 2007, 12:46 AM)
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patto
Jun 27, 2007, 1:28 AM
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Slablizard your an idiot and a troll for posting that gri-gri picture. Gri-Gri as MORE dangerouse for lowering because they only allow one brake hand.
Personally I believe that when lowering with a tube TWO hands should always be on the brake side. (If you have gloves the 1 should be acceptable) Whatsmore if you at all unsure about lowering you should do hand over hand. This also wears out your hands less.
By the sound of it your belayer only had one hand on the rope, there in lies the problem.
When abseiling I ALWAYS do hand over hand but that is probably because I have a low friction device.
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dreday3000
Jun 27, 2007, 1:45 AM
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i can't believe you people read that whole post...
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mikitta
Jun 27, 2007, 2:55 AM
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When I helped teach the climbing course at UW years ago, before we ever went out to Veedauwoo... before anyone ever got on a single rock, we stood around the grassy yard out by the football feild and practiced belay techniques - including lowering. We had the belayer stand on one side of a tree, the 'climber' on the other side, and the climber walked backward away from the tree. The belayer, having the rope run around the tree, was able to feel the friction and learned how to controll the descent. (think of a U with the belayer on one side, the climber on the other side and the tree at the bottom of the U)
We ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS had a back up for every belayer. Yes, we did teach hip belay, but the student was always backed up by an experienced climber who had a stitch plate, 8 or ATC (they were JUST starting to become popular then).
If you climb with Amy again, deffinitely have at least one more person along. Certainly give her some more experience with belay - but do it so she has a back up. And have her practice lowering with the back up as well. A class is all well and good, but it really takes some repetition to understand it all and put it together so it's just there when you need it. Give her the benefit of that practice with competent and experienced friends to back her up.
And don't climb anything too likely to result in a whipper till you are confident of her abilities :)
God Bless,
mik
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whoa
Jun 27, 2007, 3:13 AM
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having read the whole post my first thought was that she dropped him for vengeance.
i would NOT climb with her again under any circumstances unless she is cute.
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