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cracklover
Jul 17, 2007, 3:30 AM
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climbsomething wrote: So, waita second- these were just hangers glued to the wall? Meaning, if you looked up close you'd see no bolt heads, just rock peeking through the hangers? Not that that condones their behavior any. I'm just curious. Anybody have any pix?
According to the original post in that other thread, there were bolt-heads glued on the hangers as well. As to the true facts, I don't pretend to have the knowledge to confirm or deny anything that has been written here.
GO
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rockguide
Jul 17, 2007, 3:37 AM
Post #27 of 87
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cracklover wrote: climbsomething wrote: So, waita second- these were just hangers glued to the wall? Meaning, if you looked up close you'd see no bolt heads, just rock peeking through the hangers? Not that that condones their behavior any. I'm just curious. Anybody have any pix? According to the original post in that other thread, there were bolt-heads glued on the hangers as well. As to the true facts, I don't pretend to have the knowledge to confirm or deny anything that has been written here. GO
Wow. Attention to detail.
Someone has a lot of explaining to do.
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camhead
Jul 17, 2007, 6:42 AM
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damn. I had the idea to do that same joke on Supercrack years ago. It would be funny, too, if the perpetrator were to hide in the bushes and film pissed off traddies a la "punked."
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overlord
Jul 17, 2007, 10:15 AM
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this should serve as a reminder to those that think that their actions wont have any consequences. im glad the actions of the rangers werent mor restrictive.
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marcuder
Jul 17, 2007, 11:47 AM
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camhead wrote: damn. I had the idea to do that same joke on Supercrack years ago. It would be funny, too, if the perpetrator were to hide in the bushes and film pissed off traddies a la "punked."
Oh man, you still don't get it... what's funny to you can cause a lot of trouble if it got out of hand... and as we can see this sort of thing can easily get out of hand. After reading all the previous posts it should be pretty clear I think. Otherwise... yes, it's a funny joke...
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j_ung
Jul 17, 2007, 12:29 PM
Post #31 of 87
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cracklover wrote: climbsomething wrote: So, waita second- these were just hangers glued to the wall? Meaning, if you looked up close you'd see no bolt heads, just rock peeking through the hangers? Not that that condones their behavior any. I'm just curious. Anybody have any pix? According to the original post in that other thread, there were bolt-heads glued on the hangers as well. As to the true facts, I don't pretend to have the knowledge to confirm or deny anything that has been written here. GO
That's the word, but I never saw them first hand, so I also can't speak definitively.
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stonefoxgirl
Jul 17, 2007, 12:50 PM
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I hope EVERYONE takes the time to absorb this thread and use this information to make sound judgements and decisions at the New.
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curator
Jul 18, 2007, 12:01 AM
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I held one in my hand. It would have looked exactly real from the outside had you climbed up on it. If you could have climbed up to it. One thing that folks aren't understanding is the actual location of the bolts. They were not on the actual route. For folks unfamiliar with EF, the route does a 20 foot traverse to the right at half height and then trends up and left to the anchor. Two bolts were placed directly between the spot where you would traverse and the anchor. On relatively blank rock. The other three were placed on the blank wall to the right of the route. In the vicinity of the previously chopped Eric Horst rig "Gymtonic". I am in no way defending the actions of the individuals but.....It seems unlikely that anyone would be able to clip the bolts at all. A lot of bullshit goes on in the seedy underworld of Fayetteville, WV. There are a lot of petty arguments, grudges, and personal vendettas. It's easy to sit in California so far detached from our little community and criticize what happens here. If you don't understand the subtleties it's best to just read the forum and stay silent. Like I said. A lot of petty highschool bullshit. The more people stay quiet the less these petty things get blown up and the less likely the park service is to catch wind of it. If we all did our own thing quietly, (rebolt routes, hang fixed draws, remove fixed draws, etc) the park would be perfectly happy never having to deal with our BS. Lets police ourselves and maintain happy relations with the park service. I am guilty because I mentioned the glued on bolts in a previous post. I won't blow things up on the internet again for my own personal enjoyment. Which is what rc.com is for me. Make a statement, sit back and watch the masses go apeshit on me. So have at it with this one.
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climbsomething
Jul 18, 2007, 12:32 AM
Post #34 of 87
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marcuder wrote: camhead wrote: damn. I had the idea to do that same joke on Supercrack years ago. It would be funny, too, if the perpetrator were to hide in the bushes and film pissed off traddies a la "punked." Oh man, you still don't get it... what's funny to you can cause a lot of trouble if it got out of hand... and as we can see this sort of thing can easily get out of hand. After reading all the previous posts it should be pretty clear I think. Otherwise... yes, it's a funny joke...
If he could harmlessly photoshop them onto a pic I'd have a laugh.
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CinnamonJohnson
Jul 18, 2007, 7:16 PM
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So, somebody just glued them to the wall?
Isnt that unsafe...? It seems like if somebody thought they were real and fell on them they could really get hurt...
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fracture
Jul 18, 2007, 7:53 PM
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curator wrote: I am in no way defending the actions of the individuals but.....It seems unlikely that anyone would be able to clip the bolts at all. A lot of bullshit goes on in the seedy underworld of Fayetteville, WV. There are a lot of petty arguments, grudges, and personal vendettas. It's easy to sit in California so far detached from our little community and criticize what happens here. If you don't understand the subtleties it's best to just read the forum and stay silent.
Silent reading is basically what I was going to do with this thread, but particularly after your post, I feel like asking about one thing:
In reply to: The more people stay quiet the less these petty things get blown up and the less likely the park service is to catch wind of it.
I don't want to be mistaken as defending these guys, either: but I am wondering what the rest of this story is. Jay says that the NPS was on the verge of shutting down the park before these guys turned themselves in. But how did the NPS learn about these fake bolts? Is this what you are talking about with a "rumor mill", Jay? Or did park officials notice them on their own? (I have never been to NRG and don't know how much ranger-presence there is, etc.)
Apparently no one (aside from perhaps curator?) who is posting in this thread really knows all of what happened. I'd personally love to hear the whole story, if anyone feels like telling it, and iff entertaining me won't be harmful to NRG access. (But also keep in mind that giving us more information could be helpful for preserving access at other areas, where people engaged in similar petty conflicts may be able to learn from the mistakes here.)
[ And btw: did I miss something, or did you link the wrong thread in the OP, Jay? I could only find comments about this in this thread. ]
(This post was edited by fracture on Jul 18, 2007, 8:14 PM)
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j_ung
Jul 18, 2007, 8:20 PM
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Nobody -- literally NOBODY -- knows the full story. Not the park personnel, not me, not curator and not even the guys who did it. Anybody who claims otherwise is lying. I limited my first post to details I learned directly from people in authority in the NPS. Now I'm hearing that the bolts were glued in places that are impossible to actually reach. I consider that a rumor (and beside the point) until and unless I can corroborate it, which will likely never happen. And again, it is beside the point of my post, which is to encourage constructive dialog rather than bonehead showboating.
And when I referred to a rumor mill, I spoke in general. Fayetteville's is quite active and I wouldn't be surprised if that's how the Park learned of these bolts. (I recently heard a rumor that I bolted routes and sold the FAs for profit, which is patently false. But people, some of them my friends, believed it. That's how Fayetteville works sometimes and, frankly, I think it sucks.) However, the route in question is also the single most prominent moderate route in the entire region. It sits within 50 meters of parking in a climbing area frequented by climbers and tourists alike. Rangers walk under it multiple times per day. Almost everybody who enters the gorge proper passes within sight of it.
Thank you for pointing out the link error, BTW. I edited the OP.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jul 18, 2007, 8:27 PM)
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caughtinside
Jul 18, 2007, 8:23 PM
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Jay, I will gladly pay you tomorrow, for an FA today.
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j_ung
Jul 18, 2007, 8:31 PM
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Crap, I'm all out, Dave. But I have a big shipment of climbing wall holds coming in tomorrow. I'll bolt some up the nearest blank wall and make you a nice 5.9 for, say, $100, plus materials. Pretty inexpensive for immortality, wouldn't you say? What kind of holds do you prefer? Slopers? Jugs? Crimps?
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fracture
Jul 18, 2007, 8:37 PM
Post #40 of 87
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j_ung wrote: Nobody -- literally NOBODY -- knows the full story.
Good point.
Perhaps if other people with information will also post it, the full story could eventually be told.
In reply to: And again, it is beside the point of my post, which is to encourage constructive dialog rather than bonehead showboating.
Very commendable, and thank you for limiting what you state as a fact to what you know to be a fact---very few people do this on these topics. I also would like to see some constructive dialog (that was also the point of my post), instead of a bunch of uninformed opinions from people "sitting in California".
In reply to: However, the route in question is also the single most prominent moderate route in the entire region. It sits within 50 meters of parking in a climbing area frequented by climbers and tourists alike. Rangers walk under it multiple times per day. Almost everybody who enters the gorge proper passes within sight of it.
Thanks. (Many other readers of this thread probably also will not know this.)
Edit (since I think I missed some on first reading of your post): I think curator's comments about whether the bolts were reachable very much are not beside the point. I (probably along with others) am pretty curious about what actually happened. The more data there is about this situation, whether it is a first-hand report, second-hand report, or a wild unsourced rumor, the more likely a reader who understands how to look at this critically will be able to piece together a coherent idea of what happened. In the absence of more data, there is a limit to what people can learn from this, and I think that was also part of the point of your initial post.
(This post was edited by fracture on Jul 18, 2007, 9:16 PM)
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curator
Jul 18, 2007, 11:33 PM
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Jay, I totally believed that you auctioned off an FA. Hook, line, and sinker. As far as for where the bolts were: go look at the cliff. The park service actually rapped in, chalked off a gridwork, and marked the locations with chalk. We'd have to go climb the route to find out if the bolts were reachable or not but from the ground I'd say.....probably not, or at a very difficult grade. Come to think of it, I don't know how the park service found out. Oh wait, I think I heard a rumor about that. Rumor has it that the folks were talking about it at Rogers and someone squealed. But it's all rumors. I gotta go fire back this curry dish.
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LaddRaine
Jul 19, 2007, 12:07 PM
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A guide from New River Mountain Guides noticed the bolts and raised the awareness of them to the Authroities, A very responsible thing to do.
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j_ung
Jul 19, 2007, 12:36 PM
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fracture wrote: I think curator's comments about whether the bolts were reachable very much are not beside the point.
We may be talking about two different points here. One is safety. There may or may not have been a safety issue depending on where the bolts were and how difficult they were to actually reach.
That, however, is, IMO, not the most important aspect of this. To me, it's that somebody actually thought this approach was better than sitting down and talking to the target of the joke about the point they wanted to make. I think that's indicative of the way some people have been acting around here lately and I think it's pretty nonconstructive. I need only glance at the effect this ridiculous incident is having on everybody to formulate that opinion.
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CinnamonJohnson
Jul 19, 2007, 2:11 PM
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How could a climbers personal safety be less important than the way people approach an ethical debate?
I think arguments about climbing ethics are completely frivolous compared to the value of one persons life. That is why I generally take the sport/safer/more bolts placed on rappel side of most ethical arguments.
I go out and climb on the cliffs to amuse myself and engage in a fun, fulfilling activity. I will never understand the "trad ego", boldness, ground-up, elitist mentality. I think it is born out of insecurity.
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CMTomasetti
Jul 19, 2007, 2:49 PM
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You're right and wrong at the same time.
A climbers personal safety is more important then anything while climbing. Safety should be everyones 1st concern.
But Sport/Bolted climbs don't nessisarily mean safe. I've seen dozens of climbs that have been poorly bolted and have potential ground falls at just about every clip. Bolts can also become weak and pull out of the rock after a few seasons. (The New has a good rebolting program so these concerns aren't that big of a deal there but at some crags they are.)
One of the main problems is that just about any A*s clown can grab a bolt gun and bolt a climb, with out knowing teh proper way to do so. (probably and over generalization but still true)
No one will ever agree on the ethics of climbing.
The way I see it is the person that puts up the FA should be the one to decide if it gets bolted or not. If you're to afraid to climb the route like the First Accentist did it, then climb something else, don't retrobolt it.
As for the "trad ego" I'm not going to comment other then saying I'm damn proud of my bold, ground up, elitist mentality....
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dingus
Jul 19, 2007, 2:56 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote: How could a climbers personal safety be less important than the way people approach an ethical debate?
Because for some getting along with the Man, and getting everyone on 'the Team' and resolving all things through counseling and mediation are the only viable solutions.
To the team builders, the appearence of a coalition is more important than just about anything. These self-appointed guardians will often cut deals with authorities and then 'go sell' the solutions to 'their' user community/peers.
You'll hear these folks lament how forest and park officials have it rough. You'll hear buzz words like Tragedy of the Commons. Sometimes these folks work wonders and save areas from closure; granted. Other times they are sellouts and actually have a problem with the free spirits that are climbers.
I avoid such busybodies whenever possible myself.
Cheers!
DMT
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johnathon78
Jul 19, 2007, 4:01 PM
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j-ung....you were seriously rumored to have sold off first ascents?! Who came up with that rumor?
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mikitta
Jul 19, 2007, 4:29 PM
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Ground up, bolting on lead - totally agree with this ethic. Some of the most amazing climbs were done this way. Just go climb in the Silvan Lake area of the Black Hills - REMARKABLE climbing!
As for the jokesters - it would have been funnier if they would have glued these fake holds to some boulder problems ... and perhaps less costly in terms of consequences imbued upon the entire NRG climbing community.
Any way you look at it, it was in poor taste. I definitely hope the sanctions against rebolting and new rout bolting will be lifted by the park service soon and that everyone has learned a good lesson from this to be careful how far they are willing to carry a joke.
God Bless,
mik
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bler
Jul 19, 2007, 4:36 PM
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federally prosecuted for what ? what type of federal crime did they commit..
(This post was edited by bler on Jul 19, 2007, 4:50 PM)
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markc
Jul 19, 2007, 7:09 PM
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bler wrote: federally prosecuted for what ? what type of federal crime did they commit..
A few of us theorized that this could be considered reckless endangerment if the job was sufficient to fool the average climber.
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