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blueeyedclimber
Aug 3, 2007, 12:15 AM
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trebork2 wrote: This is a never ending battle
That's the whole problem, it doesn't end. I think if you chop bolts than you should pay for them. Someone put time, effort, and money into putting these bolts in that have absolutely no impact on the climbing community and someone just decides that he/she has the right to decide whether they should be there or not. These people never sack up and admit it either. They are spineless and pathetic and do more damage to climbing than any old bolt ever could.
Josh
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jmeizis
Aug 3, 2007, 12:30 AM
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See now what is the point of chopping bolts anywhere. One can say that they damage the rock but when the bolt war gets started the rock loses even worse and that's just bad for everyone. It's especially ridiculous in a place like Black and White rocks because of the obscurity of the crag. In some places placing bolts is a GOOD thing. Example, Barn Bluff, a local sport crag in Minnesota. It's a former limestone quarry with many layers. The bottom 50 feet is limestone, the next 10 feet are loose sandstone, then 5 feet of loess. Before bolts were installed people avoided this place. There are a low number of protectable climbs and setting up a toprope rained down crap on the people below and the hike around to the other side is ridiculous. In this instance the purpose was conservation. Having climbed at Black and White I can imagine it might be the same there, maybe not. Extrapolate this to say the previously mentioned climb on, what was it, Cerro Torre in Patagonia and yeah it may have been poor ethics for bolts to be installed in the first place, but how stupid would it be to carry a wrecking bar to pull them out, only to have them be re-installed and them ripped out again. Then all you have is ugly rock full of a bunch of new pinky pockets and it then becomes a conservation issue with climbers being the bad guys. It's hard to imagine I'm sure but in some instances conflicts are worked out by getting together and talking it out to a complete conclusion, not mindless bickering back and forth. People can be stupid, that doesn't mean one should continue the idiocy by chopping. Just ignore them. Let them rot out of their hole in a couple decades and then don't replace them!
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wanderlustmd
Aug 3, 2007, 2:15 PM
Post #28 of 117
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I agree. We build ski lifts for crissake! Chopping bolts only leads to re-bolting and further damage. Once it's placed, it's done.
The only excpetion I can think of is a line of bolts next to a 5.7 hand crack. That would be tempting, but even then. I realize it's not a black and white issue, but blueeyed is right in this case.
Edited to add: Everyone can find a loophole in someone else's theories. I always thought it was interesting that Mark Twight was anti-bolt....as he was riding around on the lifts to routes in Chamonix...
(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Aug 7, 2007, 2:58 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 3:15 PM
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There are certainly times hwn bolts should be removed. Top anchors are certainly NOT cannidates for removal INMOP Retro bolt a classic climb thats a diferent story.
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moose_droppings
Aug 3, 2007, 3:31 PM
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Yep, this pretty much is the problem;
In reply to: someone just decides that he/she has the right to decide whether they should be there or not.
One or a few decided that they should be there, but its wrong if one or a few decides they shouldn't be there? WTF
In reply to: Let them rot out of their hole in a couple decades and then don't replace them!
This is a concern most people don't contemplate. Does the person that put them in plan on maintenance for the future of that bolt. Who takes care of that hole forever and ever. Putting a little rock colored grout in the hole or epoxy is a quick fix. Neither of these will erode and weather the same as the real rock will, but who gives a dam about the future right. After all we wont be here to look at all these sores.
When bolting occurs on private property, all arguments are off. The owner is dictator. Public property ought to be the same rules for drilling as it is for chopping....one person decides it goes in, one person decides it gets chopped. Majority should prevail on public land. So far the government is cooperating with climbers, the single users of these bolts and arguements, without the views of the rest of the public s consideration. It is public land after all. So why don't we all just climb and let climb before a third party decides this issue needs puts to rest.
Their position could be;
I paint a mural on a climbing wall, me and some others think its nice. If you don't like it, don't look at it.
or,
One person shouldn't destroy all my work and money I put into my mural.
or
Some dude was to chicken sh*t to destroy my mural in front of a bunch of us that liked it and would of killed him if we would of seen him do it.
or
If you try to remove my mural, you'll just leave a bigger mess, better to just leave it.
Two sides to every coin, seems that the only useful side is the one each individual finds more useful to their own needs
Sorry for trying to point out the other side of the coin. I realize it is futile.
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healyje
Aug 3, 2007, 5:17 PM
Post #31 of 117
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The recent wave of 'logic' that any bolt that someone manages to weasel into a rock is somehow sacrosanct defies all reason. It's simple - don't place them inappropriately and they won't get chopped. But some folks with new drills do occasionally (and delusionally) have serious impulse control issues. When bolts are inappropriate, they should be removed. That doesn't excuse bad or sloppy chopping jobs, or deliberately destructive chopping such as Nichols. Properly done with available colored epoxy sticks and careful work a good chopping job is totally invisible.
These discussions often sound like a convention of cigar smokers aghast at that anyone might find their smoke objectionable. Want to prevent chopping? Then engage your brain before pulling the trigger and consider whether a bolt is absolutely required and whether you are retroing (even anchors).
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jmeizis
Aug 4, 2007, 12:13 AM
Post #32 of 117
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I can see that there is another side to the coin but my problem is simply this. If we take the rock as our most precious resource then:
A) It should not be bolted unless to prevent erosion or further damage of that resource.
B) It's placement is a source of such insignificant damage as to be negligible in it's harm to said resource.
Now modern day bolts last for a very long time. I've never bolted anything nor do I claim to know anything about bolts. I do believe that they last several decades when installed properly and not in harsh environments such as sea cliffs. So it seems that as long as they are used correctly and sparingly they would fit into category (B) for probably several centuries before any significant damage would be occuring. Furthermore, I can't believe their isn't technology to protect old bolt holes. Plenty of pro fits in old pins scars, why not bolt holes?
The problem seems to arise when people start doing ridiculous things like bolting cracks or overprotecting climbs. A good example is some of the climbs at Rumney like Smokestack, a very moderate chimney/crack or Underdog, a now bolted traditional climb. Rumney is primarily a sport crag and some might make the argument that putting bolts in isn't a big deal because of the ethics of the area, but it's like saying, "when in Rome...", there is no actual reason except that people want an excuse to bolt something they were too lazy or scared to lead traditionally. Another example is Cathedral and Whitehorse ledges where some of the climbs are so runout that having a bolt is rediculously psychological as to be laughable yet a large amount of people climb them and call them classics having not made the comment that the line should have additional bolts to make it safer. So it seems there is at least one distinct dichotomy we can split climbers into:
A) Those who climb for physical exertion and movement.
B) Those who climb for the adrenaline rush and adventure.
This is not to say that there isn't a mixture of the two or that there aren't different dichotomies but this one seems relatively seperate and distinct from others we could make. Now obviously we can see the distinction in the crags that these people will go to. The (A) people will go to sport crags like Rumney, the setting is beautiful, there are many climbs in a close area, the moves are unique, and there is usually no danger in taking a fall. The (B) people will go to places that require more work like the Adirondacks where they can enjoy a delightful bushwack to an obscure piece of rock in the middle of the mountains with nary a chalk mark or bolt to guide their way.
Now their seems to be a problem in that some (A) people are going to check out the 'dacks. They'll most likely hate it but they'll check it out. They might even think, "this would be such an awesome line if it were bolted/safer/cleaner". Then they go home and get their little drill and install a couple of bolts. The locals, probably a lot of (B) type people are going to see it and be pissed that, not only was the rock damaged for, what seems to them, to be no reason, but the adventurous nature of the climb was reduced. Then they rip the bolts out, further destroying the rock. Later when the person who originally installed the bolt brings their friends back to show them their new, cool line, they see it's been chopped and they get pissed, even though they probably never asked anyone except maybe their belayer if it was a good idea to bolt in that location. Then they put in more bolts, they get ripped, more bolts, rip, bolts, rip. On and on till someone gives in, someone gets their ass kicked, or the people come to a reasonable agreement on how to manage the area.
It seems to me that in all the instances of people installing bolts controversially, or ripping them out nobody tried to talk to anyone else. They simply thought they'd bolt the line without asking what other people in the area thought of the idea or people ripped out bolts because they have such high and mighty ethics....although they wouldn't bother to do so when others might question why they are doing such a thing, which seems to be the case here.
I read something written by Yvon Chouinard that was written a long time ago in a catalog called "Clean Climbing". The problem was that all the pins being pulled out of the wall resulted in those aformentioned pin scars. And so the introduction of passive protection was revolutionary in it's ease of use and I can see the same problem occuring with bolts, albeit over a longer period of time.
Most of us are reasonable people. If we want to bolt a line, we'll take into consideration the local ethic, whether the climb is adequately protectable otherwise, and probably ask around for first ascencionists or some local opinions before coming to an informed decision. If we thought a bolt was where it didn't belong we would probably try to find who placed it (or at least I would) and explain why we don't think it should be there. If there were further disagreement we would probably try to come to a point where agreement was reached to either bolt, not bolt, bolt moderately, or whatever. Unfortunately, there are always extremists. People who will not listen to what other people have to say because their judgement is so clouded or they are simply so righteous in their belief that they will do what they want with complete disregard to the rest of us in this community. This is unfortunate but completely unavoidable. I do think there are things we can do to mitigate the damage caused by such people.
A) Don't chop bolts just because you don't like them being there. Someone spent money putting them there and chopping will probably result in more damage to the rock. Instead try to figure out who did the bolting and reach a reasonable agreement on what to do.
B) Don't bolt a climb because it scares you, that's part of climbing, embrace it. Under no circumstances should you bolt a climb that has been led traditionally without first talking to the first ascencionist or at least the local climbing community and having had a diversity of climbing experience in many places. A concensus should be reached on how to do such things. Under no circumstances should a crack ever be bolted. That's just ridiculous. Just because one is incompetent in the use of traditional protection does not mean they should bolt the climb into submission. For craps sake you can sew up a crack with far more protection than any bolted climb. DO NOT LOWER THE CLIMB TO YOUR ABILITY.
C) As a community it is important that we be self regulating in not only this aspect but in many. Young climbers can be idiots, if they are helped and taught then they can be educated to be outsanding climbers as well as helpful members of the community. If you see something that you know that people will not like at that climbing area then try to stop the person in a reasonable way.
Honestly the only way we can actually regulate the installation of bolts and where and how is by forming some sort of group or institution to regulate and monitor it. Personally this seems stupid to me but perhaps I am naiive in thinking that people are reasonable and can solve their own problems. I can only hope for our communities sake and the sake of the rock that this is true. I would hate for it to be the developmental and recreational pressure of other groups that gets us to manage ourselves properly.
The aformentioned "Clean Climbing" can be found here: http://www.climbaz.net/...ard72/chouinard.html
Despite being written more than thirty years ago it is still quite relevant and something every climber should read.
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notch
Aug 4, 2007, 1:05 AM
Post #33 of 117
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I remember the first time I found those bolts there. I'd busted my ass to set up a top rope anchor and hadn't even seen them. When I was breaking down my anchor I saw them out of the corner of my eye and I used them ever after. I haven't been there in a few years now, but my wife and I always had a nice couple hours over there. I wouldn't call them necessary, but they did make life easier.
Just for the record, as I'd recently complained about anchor bolting a crag about 15 miles north of B&W, it wasn't me. While these anchor bolts, like the ones at DR, weren't a necessity, chopping them wasn't the answer.
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cdrisc
Aug 4, 2007, 1:09 AM
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was going to try, but I couldn't have said it better myself (jmeizis)
(This post was edited by cdrisc on Aug 4, 2007, 1:10 AM)
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moose_droppings
Aug 4, 2007, 1:13 AM
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In reply to: They simply thought they'd bolt the line without asking what other people in the area thought of the idea or people ripped out bolts because they have such high and mighty ethics.
You made it sound degrading to remove it. What about the "high and mighty ethics" of putting them in as opposed to "simply thought they'd bolt the line without asking".
This is what joe was talking about a few post up. We need to be equally vigilant about bolts going in as people are about them coming out. The damage starts with the drill, not with the chopping.
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jmeizis
Aug 4, 2007, 5:34 PM
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Yeah, sorry I was trying to get the sarcasm across their but you know the internet. I just didn't want to say that some idiot thought they'd bolt a line without even having the common courtesy to seek out others who might have an opinion on it because they selfishly don't think they need the opinions of others.
The problem does need equal vigilance and I'm sorry if that did not come across in my previous post but that's what I was trying to convey.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 6, 2007, 5:44 PM
Post #37 of 117
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Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. We are talking about a small little toprope crag. I do not know the process that was put into placing the bolts there. I don't know who did it, who was consulted, or what channels were gone through. It doesn't matter. Chopping these insignificant bolts (that would have saved wear and tear on nearby trees, btw) was not the answer. Period. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it.
Josh
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dingus
Aug 6, 2007, 6:15 PM
Post #38 of 117
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healyje wrote: The recent wave of 'logic' that any bolt that someone manages to weasel into a rock is somehow sacrosanct defies all reason. It's simple - don't place them inappropriately and they won't get chopped. But some folks with new drills do occasionally ( and delusionally) have serious impulse control issues. When bolts are inappropriate, they should be removed. That doesn't excuse bad or sloppy chopping jobs, or deliberately destructive chopping such as Nichols. Properly done with available colored epoxy sticks and careful work a good chopping job is totally invisible. These discussions often sound like a convention of cigar smokers aghast at that anyone might find their smoke objectionable. Want to prevent chopping? Then engage your brain before pulling the trigger and consider whether a bolt is absolutely required and whether you are retroing ( even anchors).
A voice of reason....
DMT
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dingus
Aug 6, 2007, 6:18 PM
Post #39 of 117
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jmeizis wrote: I've never bolted anything nor do I claim to know anything about bolts.
Excellent! I'll just stop reading here and save myself considerable time.
DMT
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wanderlustmd
Aug 6, 2007, 7:11 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it.
Did you honestly expect anything different?
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 7, 2007, 1:21 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Did you honestly expect anything different?
Expect? No. Hope for? Yes. Honestly, there is only truly about five topics on rc.com, because every thread drifts to one of them.
Josh
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Gmburns2000
Aug 7, 2007, 1:41 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Did you honestly expect anything different? Expect? No. Hope for? Yes. Honestly, there is only truly about five topics on rc.com, because every thread drifts to one of them. Josh
I wish I knew how to create new threads from old ones because that would be a great thread: Name all five regurgitated topics on RR.com.
I'll start us off -
Noob Mistakes
Bolt Wars
Which Shoes to Buy
How Do I...
Whose Fault Was It When That Guy Fell
Close or too narrow?
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dingus
Aug 7, 2007, 1:43 AM
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You forgot 'let's pile on Majid" gand banging, an rc.com trademark.
DMT
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Gmburns2000
Aug 7, 2007, 1:44 AM
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dingus wrote: You forgot 'let's pile on Majid" gand banging, an rc.com trademark. DMT
I totally wanted to add that, but figured it fit into all categories. We might have to have a poll once we get a few suggestions up.
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clymbrchk
Aug 7, 2007, 3:06 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Did you honestly expect anything different? Expect? No. Hope for? Yes. Honestly, there is only truly about five topics on rc.com, because every thread drifts to one of them.
You know, Josh, to me, it feels like your topic name kinda calls for a less-than-compassionate response. Maybe I'm missing something, but it kinda looked like you set the tone for this conversation by calling people pathetic? And yet, you were hoping for "this thread" to be different? Really? 
Personally, I used to have really strong opinions on the matter until this grumpy old fart called BobD sat me down and bought me coffee. (It was Boulder, what do you expect?) By the time I finished my mocha latte, I didnt know which end was up. All that I remember is that he basically told me that I should consider keeping my mouth shut until I understood a bit more about bolting and chopping.
So, I tried placing a bolt with a hand drill because that is my stance (bolts should be placed by hand), and then I tried chopping one. And then I shut the hell up and disappeared from the debate.
So, that leaves me curious - who, in this thread, has actually chopped a bolt and/or placed one? In what type of rock and under what kind of conditions?
Do you know the FA's where you climb? Have you personally talked/asked/debated with them about why they chose to place a bolt or not? (It's been my experience that you can pretty much buy a climber a beer and debate any topic under the sun.) Do you know the bolt choppers where you live? Agree or disagree, why would they chop it?
In my experience, when you can start answering these questions, everything else starts to make sense, and the need to debate it on the internet kinda goes away. Not that I'm an expert. Because I'm not. But I did learn a LOT from that conversation that I felt compelled to share.
Just my humble .02. n00b style.
(This post was edited by clymbrchk on Aug 7, 2007, 3:40 AM)
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wanderlustmd
Aug 7, 2007, 2:56 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: wanderlustmd wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Did you honestly expect anything different? Expect? No. Hope for? Yes. Honestly, there is only truly about five topics on rc.com, because every thread drifts to one of them. Josh
Such is the net. This thread struck me as similar to the "I wont fall one" you did a while back (I think it was you...). Unlike that, this is too hot a topic to theorize without taking a stance. Not to say that that one wasn't significant, but...
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cuchulainn1856
Aug 7, 2007, 9:52 PM
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will all the hippies please STFU!!!!!!!! if its good rock, bolt that shit, climb it, and when ur done, other ppl can climb it safeley, without the hassle of climbing up to set a toprope. if ur so concerned about the "natural condition" and "conservation" of rock in the first place, u wouldnt climb it, b/c the acidic secretions in ur sweaty hands would corrode the rock, and then u would be responsible for the early destrucion of it. Its a fukking ROCK!!! how many times have u heard the expression, hard like a rock, or strong as a rock? its gonna be there after you, so dont go ripping that shit out for ur hiipie-ass ideals. climb, dont whine.
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billcoe_
Aug 8, 2007, 2:34 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Once again, this has turned into a bolt war thread. We are talking about a small little toprope crag. I do not know the process that was put into placing the bolts there. I don't know who did it, who was consulted, or what channels were gone through. It doesn't matter. Chopping these insignificant bolts (that would have saved wear and tear on nearby trees, btw) was not the answer. Period. If you want to blow this into bolting ethics than go at it. Josh
So you admit you don't know anything about it ? Come on. You start with a flame war, then gather facts. Should be the reverse. You need to gathersome facts unless you want to hear " Dude, you're giving asswipes a bad name."
What Healyje said above is equally or even perhaps more true.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Sep 6, 2007, 4:54 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2007, 3:24 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: Dude, you're giving asswipes a bad name.
Hello....Kettle....You're Black!
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