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caughtinside
Aug 8, 2007, 10:52 PM
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secretninja wrote: caughtinside wrote: Is the fact that the rock is junky and insignificant sufficient rationale to install TR bolts? The op didn't mention the availability of natural anchors. And maybe the fact that it is used for groups and classes is reason enough to chop it right there?  This is one of the more retarded posts i've seen on rc.com lately. Would you rather have random n00blets running amok without supervision? I think you can compare them quite nicely to driver education. Lame? Absolutely. I HATE getting stuck behind one of those drivers ed cars doing 80 in the 100 zone almost as much as it drives me nuts having 30 munchkins underfoot at the crag. However, i would much rather have that same driver NOT T-bone me by running a light 5 years from now, just like i would rather not have some wanker kick uncalled choss on me because no one taught him differently. Use you head for more than a hatrack, CIS, and look at the big picture.
That was awesome mr secretninja. Thanks for the laffs.
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kyote321
Aug 9, 2007, 9:41 PM
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agreed, good post.
i ahve as much respect for bolt choppers as i do for abortion activists that kill doctors.
if you love the pure rock so much, go get fit, find a pure line and climb it instead of spending your time chopping someone's bolts that they were probably thinking that someone weaker than them would benefit from. think sonnie trotter stays awake at night thinking of a 5.10 to go chop that he soled years ago?
why is there all this chopping going on in the east? it is like a time-warp to 30 years ago.
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moose_droppings
Aug 9, 2007, 10:12 PM
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kyote321 wrote: agreed, good post. i ahve as much respect for bolt choppers as i do for abortion activists that kill doctors. if you love the pure rock so much, go get fit, find a pure line and climb it instead of spending your time chopping someone's bolts that they were probably thinking that someone weaker than them would benefit from. think sonnie trotter stays awake at night thinking of a 5.10 to go chop that he soled years ago? why is there all this chopping going on in the east? it is like a time-warp to 30 years ago.
Well that should put us one step away from solving the whole mess.
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dudemanbu
Aug 9, 2007, 10:25 PM
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One of these days i'm going to just go and grid bolt Orenaug park. Ken Nichols will be so outraged that he will scour the country, chopping every single bolt at every single crag in every single state.
When he crosses the wrong dude, they'll kill him, and this whole oddessy will be over.
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moose_droppings
Aug 9, 2007, 10:43 PM
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dudemanbu wrote: One of these days i'm going to just go and grid bolt Orenaug park. Ken Nichols will be so outraged that he will scour the country, chopping every single bolt at every single crag in every single state. When he crosses the wrong dude, they'll kill him, and this whole oddessy will be over.
Killing people always solves things.
The short bus is coming for ya.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Aug 9, 2007, 10:44 PM)
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dudemanbu
Aug 9, 2007, 11:05 PM
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you guys sure don't know facetious when you see it.
by the way, "short bus" jokes are very offensive to people with mentally or physically handicapped family members.
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moose_droppings
Aug 9, 2007, 11:40 PM
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And you think my answer was real????
Some people object to being called mentally handicapped
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dudemanbu
Aug 10, 2007, 1:53 AM
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i'm still grid bolting orenaug. i got a wicked project there. it's like 30 sick feet of slightly less than vertical yo.
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jogglp
Aug 10, 2007, 3:48 AM
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man oh man,
i just don't know what to say (i guess i should su then ;-) ).....i don't get it.
nomatter from which angle you look at it it seems that everybody is hiding behind some wired brain construct of something to justify and say ok or not ok....no matter how it's packaged, the issue got nothing to do with climbing at the very bottom.....why can't people just enjoy to climb & leave all that ethic crap or whatsoever behind?....the bolt discussion is not about ethic or something else, it's about human egos that want to be satisfied one way or the other.......i would suggest that both sides put their ego at side & go on living......who really cares if there is a bolt or not.....if you don't want it don't use it you have a choice....if you want it use.....who's to say that a climber that uses the bolt is not worthy enough the do the climb.....problem seems that the choppers are more violent & tunnel visioned than the other part (which makes sense, the weaker want the bolts, the tough guys don't need 'em).....again both is fine, my symphaties to the tough guy that actually needs the feedback from the community that oh my god is he good doing it without bolts, BS, climbing is for everybody so are the rocks & what is really wrong if there are bolts (on the same token, well, why would you like to drill one if there is enough for trad protection, again besides the point, both opinions are equally vaild, so why can;t we accept both as equal)....be truly independent & decide upon yourself - whom else would you need for this......sad how far it had come, either way....co-existance & acceptance are required more than ever in a constantly mind narrowing society....keep climbing clean of that crap....
sorry I had to.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 10, 2007, 4:31 PM
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I have talked to a few people including the bolter. The person who put the bolts in used to teach a lot of classes at this crag and realized two things. 1)the tiny trees at the top were getting destroyed and 2) most (if not all) of the people that go there are beginners who don't have a lot of knowledge to set up topropes. He/she thought that by putting bolts in it would save the trees and make it easier to use said crag. This person talked to a couple active climbers in the area and they agreed that it would be a good idea.
Another person I talked to agreed with me that it looked like the work of an amateur. The bolts were just banged off leaving the stems in place. The rock is much worse off than it was.
So....THESE bolt choppers are pathetic!
Josh
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jogglp
Aug 10, 2007, 11:06 PM
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josh,
i am sorry if i made myself not clear, i am 100% behind the initial statement, if there is a bolt for whatever reason, don't chop it......i guess what i mean is that i don't need a reason why it's there or why not, i just would hope that a rock as such should be not be misused to reflect a single climbers opinion, i still think it is a cumunity thing & therefore should allow to reflect different opinions in coexistance, regardless of who was the first to climb etc...., personally should i ever do a clean/trad first i could care less if somebody puts bolts into it, because i still have a choice to use or not to use them, which is taken away if chopped...guess i have a problem with opinion driven actions....hope this makes it more clear
cheers
jo
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dingus
Aug 11, 2007, 12:35 AM
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Hey Josh, check this out...
Me and some mates climbed all over this rock
when we were teenagers back in the late 70s. Top roped it a bunch of times,
dozens in fact. Led one of them, basically a free solo. Finally both Jr and I 3rd classed it, once each.
We did at least 5 independent lines on it, from the corner out to "Potato Chip" up the friable overhangs. I learned an awful lot about rock climbing on that little crag, I truly did. I literally experienced break throughs that resonate to this day. I recall vividly the first tiem I managed to climb it clean, wearing Converse All stars cause I didn't know any fucking better hahah! It went from test piece to play thing and now its slowly swinging back to test piece again, such is the sine wave of life.
That's something we're all gonna taste.
ANYWAY, I went up the path there a few weeks ago on a sojourn to Tennessee. What was once a top rope and a high ball boulder problem are now 4-bolt clip ups. The treee we used to TR from at the top is long gone.
My only point is this... those bolts don't bother me in the least brah. Not one bit. I admired the handiwork
Sure I think tradition is WORTH DEFENDING. I do. But I also think bolts have their place on existing and on new. I'm not a prolific bolter or new router but I have spent my time doing this
and this
so don't get me wrong. Both sport routes like this
and trad routes a million miles in space, hanging from the very bolt you just hand drilled yourself
Our sport has a rich history and its worth defending the traditions formed by the broad shoulders we all stand upon. I just wanted to part with a friendly wave dude, not some smart assed comment.
Eye to the future but keep the faith, eh?
Its all tribal in the end. A great mad irresponsible pack of mad men and women
who pretty much don't like to be told what to do, by anyone.
Cept the Rule Followers, and shit dude, you and I both know they aren't climbers.
Oh shit, I said no smart assed finishes.
Oh well...
CHEERS FROM THE LEFT COAST!
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Aug 11, 2007, 12:49 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 14, 2007, 1:49 AM
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I enjoyed that, Dingus, even though I still can't tell if you are on my side or not. You are such a waffler. But, anyways, thanks for the greetings, and back at you from the "RIGHT" coast.....HA, HA!
Josh
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dingus
Aug 14, 2007, 1:58 PM
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For the 2 bolts in question? Squarely in your camp dude.
Cheers
DMT
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binrat
Aug 14, 2007, 2:25 PM
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Josh:
Totally agree with you.
Binrat
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gobias
Aug 14, 2007, 2:40 PM
Post #91 of 117
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quick question.
Why is this only a problem on the east coast? And what does the west coast do?
I am ignorant. If I wanted to bolt at one of the classic climbing areas of the west coast, what would I have to do? Why is it any different on the east coast?
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dingus
Aug 14, 2007, 3:04 PM
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gobias wrote: quick question. Why is this only a problem on the east coast? And what does the west coast do? I am ignorant. If I wanted to bolt at one of the classic climbing areas of the west coast, what would I have to do?
I'm not sure what you mean bu 'bolt at one of the classic climbing areas.' However, a good start would be to become a local fixture on that particular climbing scene. Climb a lot of the existing routes. Cultivate local friendships that span more than one generation so you know who's doing and who did what.
These classic areas you speak of have been prowled by some of the best, for decades in fact, in places like Yosemite.
But there is also a LOT of new terrain that can be developed for those who don't mind exploring, bush whacking and the allure of 'the New.'
That's a completely different gig than say, coming to the Valley and bolting a sport route that crosses a route first climbed in logging boots before some of our fathers were born.
I think if you look closely you'll see that many bolting conflicts arise from a near-complete lack of respect for the past traditions and accomplishments.
In reply to: Why is it any different on the east coast?
Because you have 2/3 (or more) of the population and 1/100 of the climbing resources. That is IT in a nutshell.
Cheers
DMT
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 14, 2007, 8:39 PM
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dingus wrote: Because you have 2/3 (or more) of the population and 1/100 of the climbing resources. That is IT in a nutshell. Cheers DMT
Way to rub it in.
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wonderwoman
Aug 14, 2007, 8:53 PM
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Hey! aren't you suposed to be on your way to pick me up from work right now? Stop yackin' and start drivin'! 
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drb1215
Aug 16, 2007, 6:03 PM
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Thought I would chime in on this discussion, since I'm the one who did it. Place the original anchors, that is, not the chopping.
My reasoning for placing the whopping 2 sets of anchors was a) The existing trees are small and getting trashed b) the rock is very hard and brittle, so gear not properly places would shear c) the area is used by beginners who many times I caught anchoring to things that was begging for trouble.
The bolts were 3/8 x 3-3/4" stainless, drilled by hand (the rock in the fells is very hard...granite would have been a dream to drill thru compared to this crap) and placed where they could not be seen from the ground below.
Since having placed the bolts (3 years ago), they have been used by climbing schools, beginners, and people wanting to get a quick climb in near home...no one complained about them.
I'm slightly miffed by the actions of a chopper. I feel strongly that if you don't like bolts, don't use them. If you are into chopping, please stand up and tell people who you are and why you feel that you need to destroy something that is meant to help others.
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healyje
Sep 5, 2007, 8:40 PM
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Sounds like a good rationale for placing the anchors though the possibility always exists that even getting a rough consensus to bolt may not be enough to persuade some parties who disagree or were not consulted.
Regardless, if someone is going to chop something - bolts, fixed lines, pins, whatever - it's on them to do the job right and haul the mank out. Just breaking or smashing bolts or cutting lines and leaving them is lame beyond words. If you can't chop and return the stone to pretty much the state it was in before they offending item appeared you have no business whatsoever messing with it. Period.
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builttospill
Sep 6, 2007, 6:26 PM
Post #97 of 117
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drb1215 wrote: I'm slightly miffed by the actions of a chopper. I feel strongly that if you don't like bolts, don't use them. If you are into chopping, please stand up and tell people who you are and why you feel that you need to destroy something that is meant to help others.
Drb, having revisited this thread I think that the reasoning for placing the bolts was sound, and concur with Healyje that the chopping was done poorly. I don't think they should have been chopped and should probably be re-installed, given the circumstances under which they were placed, chopped and used.
However, I take issue with the argument (as I have in other threads) that if you don't like the bolts, you just shouldn't use them.
Just magically clap your hands and pretend that they're not there. I usually keep my mouth shut about this, but since you are someone who obviously owns a drill and uses it instead of some wanker posting on a message board after coming home from their day of top-roping, I feel an obligation to indicate why your argument seems silly to someone like me. The point you're making has real-world consequences, not like the opinions of some people who post here just to stir the pot.
I'm no hardman, by any means. I don't climb hard sport and I don't climb hard trad. I dont' even go cragging that often, but I like when a local crag has some convenient top-rope anchors because it makes my climbing experience quicker, safer and more convenient. I'm a bona-fide product of modern society in that.
But I don't like when that mentality gets taken to the mountains or to the real routes, and someone tells me to just "pretend like the bolt isn't there." I recognize that some people climb for the gymnastic quality of the moves and that's fine. More power to them. But the bulk of the reason that I climb is for the adrenaline, for the feeling of being "out there," for the (dare I say it!!) fear that I might feel. A big part of that fear is shaking while trying to place a nut in a thin crack, and not being able to simply clip a bolt. Sometimes that experience will make me wish that I had gone sport climbing instead, but sometimes it liberates me. In the long run, it's what I seek from climbing. Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand.
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olderic
Sep 6, 2007, 6:59 PM
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builttospill wrote: But I don't like when that mentality gets taken to the mountains or to the real routes, and someone tells me to just "pretend like the bolt isn't there." I recognize that some people climb for the gymnastic quality of the moves and that's fine. More power to them. But the bulk of the reason that I climb is for the adrenaline, for the feeling of being "out there," for the (dare I say it!!) fear that I might feel. A big part of that fear is shaking while trying to place a nut in a thin crack, and not being able to simply clip a bolt. Sometimes that experience will make me wish that I had gone sport climbing instead, but sometimes it liberates me. In the long run, it's what I seek from climbing. Don't tell me to just ignore the bolt, because it's not that simple, and anyone who climbs for the same reasons that I do (or even some of the same reasons) will understand.
Trophy. Very eloquent way of saying that despite one's best intentions (of ignoring and not clipping) the bolt, the committment will never be there as long as the option exists. Of course TR convenience anchors don't really fall into that category.
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bent_gate
Sep 6, 2007, 7:18 PM
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It's a bit like building a road alongside the Appalachian Trail, and saying, "If you don't like it, then you don't have to walk on it, just stay on your trail"
Do you like hiking trails with a road next to it, even if it doesn't get that much traffic?
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dingus
Sep 6, 2007, 7:24 PM
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I like to focus on the steps when walking. All that other stuff, watching out where i'm going, dodging low hanging branches, selecting hiking boots... all that shit gets in the way of walking man!
I want purity in my walking. So I stick to roads and sidewalks. That way I can maximize my enjoyment of the steps without being distracted by all the accoutrements.
Its a performance issue you see. If you don't want to use the sidewalk, step off George!
DMT
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