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phile
Oct 10, 2007, 3:04 AM
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I just spent a few days futzing around on gold wall (ribbon falls wall), trying to get the hang of all the aid systems for an upcoming zodiac climb.
One thing in particular that threw me was how to get the haulbag back down when rapping the route. I ended up rapping off a single strand, with the other end tied to the pig and using myself as a counterweight. Is there a better way?
Thanks for any tips.
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salamanizer
Oct 10, 2007, 3:27 AM
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Yeah, hang the bag from your rap device.
I could explain it, but I don't really care to as it would take me 45 min to write. I'm sure someone will dig up a link for you, or you could just search "rapping with a haul bag" yourself.
Oh wait, here I did it for you.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...8&forum=44&3
(This post was edited by salamanizer on Oct 10, 2007, 3:37 AM)
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gunksgoer
Oct 10, 2007, 3:36 AM
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If the bag is relatively light carrying it on your back is the way to go. For heavier loads or tons of raps hang it from your belay device biner or belay loop. Im pretty sure theres a diagram and small section on it in the falcon big walls book.
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phile
Oct 10, 2007, 4:56 AM
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Thanks salamanizer and gunksgoer!
PTPP's technique sounds like a good way to go. I bet it took him more than 45 minutes to write it with all that bold-face type and superfluous verbiage ;)
The bag wasn't that heavy, but I don't think I would've wanted it on my back while rapping.
As far as I can tell, the Long/Middendorf book's section on rapping with a bag is one sentence, near the top of page 92: "Descending with gear is best facilitated by hanging the haulbag from the harness, though massive bags must be lowered independently." Page 91 has an illustration of someone rapping with a haulbag hanging off their harness.
Overall, I'm disappointed with the book. Long's How to Climb and Climbing Anchors have more depth. Between Long/Middendorf and FOTH, there are still a lot of gaps. Are there other good books/websites?
p.
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rocknice2
Oct 10, 2007, 5:06 AM
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Riding the Pig..........Yeeeehaaaaa!!!!!!
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dingus
Oct 10, 2007, 5:33 AM
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Rode the pig for many raps OJT style coming down from El Cap ledges due to route congestion.
Rig your rap as norma. On the pig you put a standard over the shoulder sling on the tie in point and clip the other end of that sling to your rap biner.
Now start rapping. You will notice ALL of the pig weight is on the rap device and not you. So you will want to wear gloves and use at least 2 biners and possibly 3, instead of the standard 1 biner for you rapping. More biners = more friction, which you will really want as you get toward the end of each rap.
The sling allows you to maneuver the pig as you rap, using your legs or knees to move it from one side to the other. On slabby raps this is essential, If you cli'p it in short your crotch will have a haul bag jammed up under it and its hard to maneuver after slamming your nads with the bag a few times.
I've rapped some 40 pitches with pigs, it really isn't that big a deal once you get it down. Its best to send your partner down first, if you have one, to find the next station and deal with the rope ends, possibly giving you a fireman's belay if necessary.
That's all there is to it. Practice with a day pack.
Don't rap with a haulbag on your back, that's Gumb Work.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Oct 10, 2007, 5:33 AM)
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moof
Oct 11, 2007, 11:50 PM
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Personally I like PTPP's approach of having you and the pig hang off the rap device, as opposed to clipping the pig into you. Being able to "escape the pig" is a nice option.
On really slabby raps send the guy with the lighter pig down first to more easily unsnarl the rope, and then (and ONLY for SLABBY stuff) wear it as a pack.
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glahhg
Oct 12, 2007, 12:54 AM
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For slabby stuff if you clip in long enough, you can grab the bottom of the bag and hold it away from the wall. Works pretty well.
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kimgraves
Oct 12, 2007, 1:49 AM
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You can also get more friction by "daisy chaining" 2 or more rap devices. There was a good discussion of this by Holdplease2 a while back. Maybe we can get Kate to comment.
Here: I found Kate's comments on Andy Kirkpatrick's website.
Best, Kim
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moof
Oct 12, 2007, 5:39 PM
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Up to a ~100 lbs haulbag I was just fine using a single Trango jaws, but rigging it was an autoblock was a must. Trying to anchor in with only one hand sucks, and doing the leg wrap really can cutoff circulation in the leg. Unlike where I've done the leg wrap in trad, you will be spending at least several minutes futzing with crap to get an anchor rigged and the haulbag setup with a load release, etc.
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crotch
Oct 12, 2007, 6:38 PM
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ptlong
Oct 12, 2007, 6:51 PM
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I'll second what crotch said about extending. This also facilitates use of an autoblock.
Another point which may be obvious is that sometimes it's prudent to first rap down without the bag and fix the ropes to the lower anchor. This can be a good idea when the next station is off to one side. It's a lot easier to swing or place gear as directionals while on rappel without the extra baggage.
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stymingersfink
Oct 14, 2007, 12:28 AM
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ptlong wrote: I'll second what crotch said about extending. This also facilitates use of an autoblock. Another point which may be obvious is that sometimes it's prudent to first rap down without the bag and fix the ropes to the lower anchor. This can be a good idea when the next station is off to one side. It's a lot easier to swing or place gear as directionals while on rappel without the extra baggage.
Couple years ago bailed from the top of P4 on ZM, which meant reversing a climber's left traverse. Set up the belay device (ATC Guide in this case), clipping the pig to it directly, then clipped myself to the ATC with my extended daisy. On the rap I'd lower out for a ways, holding hard to the right. When it got to be nearly impossible to pull the bag any further over, I'd place a piece (or clip a piece of fixed gear, there were plenty of copperheads) then continue on my way. The pieces helped keep me from being pulled back left, almost like down-aiding but not quite. It would have been much more difficult on a real overhanging down-aid. My partner cleaned the pieces on his rap.
FYI, a belay device set up in autoblock mode would be pretty much worthless. The newer high-friction devices are pretty key though, especially when riding a pig.
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phile
Oct 17, 2007, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: FYI, a belay device set up in autoblock mode would be pretty much worthless. The newer high-friction devices are pretty key though, especially when riding a pig.
I took "facilitates use of an autoblock" to mean that it gives more room to rig a friction knot backup--is that incorrect?
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ptlong
Oct 17, 2007, 4:41 PM
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phile wrote: I took "facilitates use of an autoblock" to mean that it gives more room to rig a friction knot backup--is that incorrect?
That is correct.
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lambone
Oct 18, 2007, 9:59 PM
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phile, rapping with the pig is pretty straightforward, use a long runner and hang yourself and the bag off the device, bag on the short end.
For Zodiac, don't kill yourself by trying to do it in one carry. Take two pigs, one big and one small. Bivi gear in the big one and rack in the small one. Run two loads down to the top of the raps then rap with both. Then two loads from the bottom of the raps to manure pile. Sucks, but not as dangerous to your life and body.
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whiskeykid
Oct 25, 2007, 11:02 PM
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When I rap with a pig I use the method that PTPP explained so long ago, with one addition. I had a hell of a ride once in Squamish when I was bailing off a route in the pouring rain. I was using a BD belay device with the "high friction" side, and two biners, but with everything wet there was still a shortage of friction. The rap was quick, the stop at the end rough, and a hole rubbed in the hip of my pants (which I was using as extra friction). The next day I bought a small 4 bar brake rack. I leave it in my haul bag, and if I ever have to rap with my pig I still use a belay device , but I clip the brake to my rap biner with a short sling. It stays up out of the way, and the friction is completely adjustable. It prevents rope burns and scary rap/zip line rides.
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lambone
Oct 26, 2007, 3:43 AM
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one quick point about rapping with a pig....
don't rap to fast! reason is the heat your belay device can generate can/will melt the sheath on your rope.
I ruined a perfectly good Mammut Supersafe rapping down the Prow after doing Ten Days After. We were in a hurry, headed for beers, and when I got to the bottom I noticed the sheath was all glossy and plasticy feeling. Trashed the rope...
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ptpp
Nov 1, 2007, 5:21 AM
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Ah, so you've rapped The Prow too, eh? Mark and I rapped it after summiting, which seems a Better Way than North Dome Gully. Yeah, I noticed a bit of glazing on my rope - you need to take it easy when rapping with huge loads.
A few tricks:
- the main thing is to put the rap device on the pig, and not on you. Then you clip into the pig. This gives you an extra degree of freedom, and doesn't crush your bollocks
- I haven't tried Dingus' trick of extending the pig with a sling, but I will
- A Grigri is a great device for rapping with really heavy pigs. I am quite comfortable rapping this way with a couple hundred pounds of piggage
- Lurking Fear is set up as a rap route. If it's not busy, this is the preferred descent from Thanksgiving Ledge. I've rapped it three times with pigs, most recently with Holly a couple weeks ago after Horse Chute. There are some diagonals, however, and there are a few tricks for handling those. If you plan to rap Lurking Fear, write me for beta
- only a BWT [or someone much stronger than me with a six-pack abs] would or could rap with a heavy pig on his back
- you need to set up your Docking Tether on your pig's Main Suspension Point Locker, so that you can dock at each station. Clip in independently with your daisies for redundancy
- you guys do know how to do a double rope rappel using a Grigri, right? Do you know you can also rappel this way with a regular thick rope that bears your weight, and a second thin rope that you use as a pulldown rope? [Disadvantage of thin rope is because you can't rappel it, you have to rethread the thick rope through each successive rap anchor after you pull it down, not as you pull it down which you can do with two rappel-able ropes
- this post was written entirely without bold text. I am trying to reform, although I do use italics from time to time.
Cheers,
Pete
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holdplease2
Nov 1, 2007, 5:45 AM
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Well, well, well! Welcome back, Pete!
-Kate.
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phile
Nov 3, 2007, 7:40 PM
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ptpp wrote: - you guys do know how to do a double rope rappel using a Grigri, right? Do you know you can also rappel this way with a regular thick rope that bears your weight, and a second thin rope that you use as a pulldown rope? [Disadvantage of thin rope is because you can't rappel it, you have to rethread the thick rope through each successive rap anchor after you pull it down, not as you pull it down which you can do with two rappel-able ropes - this post was written entirely without bold text. I am trying to reform, although I do use italics from time to time. Cheers, Pete
Fantastic! I love the absence of bold. So much easier on the eyes, and puts the emphasis on the great content rather than on distracting flourishes. I salute you.
Rapping double length with grigri: i think you're talking about using a stopper knot/biner at the top and rapping one strand? or is there some other trick?
just got denied by zodiac a few days ago; did the prow as consolation prize.
cheers!
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ptpp
Nov 3, 2007, 7:53 PM
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Oh, cheers.
The trick is to die a regular EDK knot [assuming the ropes are of almost identical diameter] as per usual. The EDK goes on the "pulldown" side of the anchor, obviously.
Pull the EDK right up to the rap anchor, and then immediately below it, tie a small butterfly. The use a locker to clip the butterfly into the "rappeling side" of the anchor.
Use your Grigri and rap down the one side, held by the butterfly + locker. [And yeah, the EDK also holds you] Remember to put a BFK [big frickin' knot] on the rap side.
When at the next station, UNTIE THE BFK! Then put a BFK in the other side. Once done, pull down on the "pulldown" side where you just tied the BFK, and the free end of the rope will slide up through the locker, as the EDK + butterfly come down towards you.
I have found this to be the Better Way for rapping with pigs, and I prefer it to using an ATC-type device with standard Klemheist backup. The Grigri seems to work really well on enormous loads, once you get the hang of it.
P.S. Good on you re. the Prow, which is really nice route. Half of somethin' is better than all of nothin'. But I don't get it - how could you fail on one wall, but succeed on another? Was it the length, or the difficulty of the climbing on Zodiac that caused you to bail?
(This post was edited by ptpp on Nov 3, 2007, 7:54 PM)
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phile
Nov 3, 2007, 8:35 PM
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ooh, nice trick with the butterfly knot--I'm sold.
1 of our team took a 60-footer on zodiac while linking p1/p2 because he didn't test a fixed nut--he broke the cables of a few fixed heads on the alternate p1 on his way down. between that, the thunderstorms on tues(?), and general slowness, we clearly weren't going to top out in time for 1 team member's international flight. we had 12 pitches left, vs. 12 pitches on the prow, but the prow looked a lot quicker/easier, especially since we had a legit 5.13 ropegun to handle the free climbing.
i started the climb with a lifetime total of 3 pitches of aid lead under my belt, so i was useful mostly as manual labor, given our tight window...
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stymingersfink
Nov 4, 2007, 2:00 AM
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ptpp wrote: When at the next station, UNTIE THE BFK! Then put a BFK in the other side. Once done, pull down on the "pulldown" side where you just tied the BFK, and the free end of the rope will slide up through the locker, as the EDK + butterfly come down towards you.
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al_piner
Nov 7, 2007, 5:31 PM
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phile wrote: we had a legit 5.13 ropegun to handle the free climbing....
A great addition to any rack but very hard to come by .
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