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marvinz
Dec 17, 2007, 3:51 AM
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curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: First of all, it's surprising to me how many of you are acting like you know what you're talking about, but you don't even know that it IS possible to rap with that device (same as with a grigri, as another mentioned). I'd love to see you shit yourself when you're rapping off a piece of webbing (say, a trad anchor, cheap bail gear, or single pitch trad w/no chains), and you realize you can't DOUBLE rope rappel and you don't know a munter because thought you'd never need it. Yea, or just a sport crag with ethics prohibiting wear (top roping through, lowering through) on the fixed anchors. Have fun. Post pictures of your soiled unmentionables. Don't be so dramatic. It's done quite frequently, see the attached picture courtesy of Trango (hopefully this will clear up any confusion): Have fun adding a full minute to you cleaning time plus having to carry the extra locker...which would probably weigh more than the added weight of the full ATC. Holy shit a minute! I don't have time to climb a route AND take a minute to clean the thing! But seriously, do you microwave your pop-tarts or do you take the time to toast them? Do you take the long way home from work every day? Why spend the same amount of money on something that complicates your setup, adds weight of the extra locker AND adds time to your procedure? It's entirely illogical if you ever plan on leaving the gym.
That's what they said about the automobile.
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Jbitz
Dec 17, 2007, 4:06 AM
Post #152 of 184
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The ATC-Noob (60g) or ATC-Sport as BD is currently calling it is heavier then a standard ATC (50g) according to the BD website.
BD Euro Press Release
http://www.bdel.com/...D_ATC%20Sport_EN.pdf
Only a noob would fall for such a line of BS. I will put a vote in for it to be renamed ATC-Noob.
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curtis_g
Dec 17, 2007, 4:24 AM
Post #154 of 184
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marvinz wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: First of all, it's surprising to me how many of you are acting like you know what you're talking about, but you don't even know that it IS possible to rap with that device (same as with a grigri, as another mentioned). I'd love to see you shit yourself when you're rapping off a piece of webbing (say, a trad anchor, cheap bail gear, or single pitch trad w/no chains), and you realize you can't DOUBLE rope rappel and you don't know a munter because thought you'd never need it. Yea, or just a sport crag with ethics prohibiting wear (top roping through, lowering through) on the fixed anchors. Have fun. Post pictures of your soiled unmentionables. Don't be so dramatic. It's done quite frequently, see the attached picture courtesy of Trango (hopefully this will clear up any confusion): Have fun adding a full minute to you cleaning time plus having to carry the extra locker...which would probably weigh more than the added weight of the full ATC. Holy shit a minute! I don't have time to climb a route AND take a minute to clean the thing! But seriously, do you microwave your pop-tarts or do you take the time to toast them? Do you take the long way home from work every day? Why spend the same amount of money on something that complicates your setup, adds weight of the extra locker AND adds time to your procedure? It's entirely illogical if you ever plan on leaving the gym.That's what they said about the automobile.
Yea, except no one would purchase a model T if an X-Terra was the same price and BETTER miles per gallon.
That's a horrible metaphor, the ATC-sport belay device is hardly a revolutionizing innovation...just a heavier, less versatile (read: not viable) alternative for the same price.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2007, 4:58 AM
Post #155 of 184
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I feel confident that we will come to a conclusion that everyone agrees with by page 10.
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rogue10186
Dec 17, 2007, 6:46 AM
Post #156 of 184
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I concur... and use an ATC-guide.
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marvinz
Dec 17, 2007, 7:32 AM
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curtis_g wrote: marvinz wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: First of all, it's surprising to me how many of you are acting like you know what you're talking about, but you don't even know that it IS possible to rap with that device (same as with a grigri, as another mentioned). I'd love to see you shit yourself when you're rapping off a piece of webbing (say, a trad anchor, cheap bail gear, or single pitch trad w/no chains), and you realize you can't DOUBLE rope rappel and you don't know a munter because thought you'd never need it. Yea, or just a sport crag with ethics prohibiting wear (top roping through, lowering through) on the fixed anchors. Have fun. Post pictures of your soiled unmentionables. Don't be so dramatic. It's done quite frequently, see the attached picture courtesy of Trango (hopefully this will clear up any confusion): Have fun adding a full minute to you cleaning time plus having to carry the extra locker...which would probably weigh more than the added weight of the full ATC. Holy shit a minute! I don't have time to climb a route AND take a minute to clean the thing! But seriously, do you microwave your pop-tarts or do you take the time to toast them? Do you take the long way home from work every day? Why spend the same amount of money on something that complicates your setup, adds weight of the extra locker AND adds time to your procedure? It's entirely illogical if you ever plan on leaving the gym.That's what they said about the automobile. Yea, except no one would purchase a model T if an X-Terra was the same price and BETTER miles per gallon. That's a horrible metaphor, the ATC-sport belay device is hardly a revolutionizing innovation...just a heavier, less versatile (read: not viable) alternative for the same price.
Read the thread ... or not.
(This post was edited by marvinz on Dec 17, 2007, 7:34 AM)
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curtis_g
Dec 17, 2007, 1:35 PM
Post #158 of 184
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diebetes wrote: You're judging me based on the fact that I don't agree with stalling progress and innovation?
No, we're judging you for thinking everything with a new patent is innovation. How the hell is this device innovative? How is it progress? It's a niche product in a niche sport that fills no niche and with no advantages. Geez, I guess we're just a bunch of nay-sayers standing in the way of innovation, huh? I bet that these words have NEVER been uttered: "I wish my ATC had just one slot for the rope."
Progress and innovation involves a great new idea, not cutting a good one in half. I think BD will realize this when the next quarterly reports come in.
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jt512
Dec 17, 2007, 2:32 PM
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curtis_g wrote: Progress and innovation involves a great new idea, not cutting a good one in half. I think BD will realize this when the next quarterly reports come in.
Actually, I think it'll sell. It's not called the ATC-n00b for nothing.
Jay
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diebetes
Dec 17, 2007, 4:43 PM
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curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: You're judging me based on the fact that I don't agree with stalling progress and innovation? No, we're judging you for thinking everything with a new patent is innovation. How the hell is this device innovative? How is it progress? It's a niche product in a niche sport that fills no niche and with no advantages. Geez, I guess we're just a bunch of nay-sayers standing in the way of innovation, huh? I bet that these words have NEVER been uttered: "I wish my ATC had just one slot for the rope." Progress and innovation involves a great new idea, not cutting a good one in half. I think BD will realize this when the next quarterly reports come in.
i guess you've never seen somebody (usually new to climbing) thread an ATC incorrectly. I think this is a great device for climbing gyms to have on hand. Sure, they will learn on a specific piece of equipment, but it's a lot better than people belaying unsafely. I know people will say this is not the first single slotted belay device, which it isn't, so it's not totally innovative, but I bet it handles a lot better than those older ones. Like I said, for me this device is useless. This is not the same as not having a use
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Jbitz
Dec 17, 2007, 4:54 PM
Post #161 of 184
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Even if a regular ATC is threaded wrong it will still work just not as smoothly.
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jt512
Dec 17, 2007, 4:59 PM
Post #162 of 184
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diebetes wrote: curtis_g wrote: diebetes wrote: You're judging me based on the fact that I don't agree with stalling progress and innovation? No, we're judging you for thinking everything with a new patent is innovation. How the hell is this device innovative? How is it progress? It's a niche product in a niche sport that fills no niche and with no advantages. Geez, I guess we're just a bunch of nay-sayers standing in the way of innovation, huh? I bet that these words have NEVER been uttered: "I wish my ATC had just one slot for the rope." Progress and innovation involves a great new idea, not cutting a good one in half. I think BD will realize this when the next quarterly reports come in. i guess you've never seen somebody (usually new to climbing) thread an ATC incorrectly.
I guess I never have. Could you please explain how it is done?
Jay
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marvinz
Dec 17, 2007, 5:10 PM
Post #163 of 184
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diebetes wrote: Like I said, for me this device is useless. This is not the same as not having a use
useless adjective
of no use; not working or not achieving what is needed
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markc
Dec 17, 2007, 5:21 PM
Post #164 of 184
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diebetes wrote: i guess you've never seen somebody (usually new to climbing) thread an ATC incorrectly.
So the solution to someone threading an ATC improperly is trying to dumb down the ATC? Sorry, I think that's more than a little misguided.
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theguy
Dec 17, 2007, 5:23 PM
Post #165 of 184
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marvinz wrote: diebetes wrote: Like I said, for me this device is useless. This is not the same as not having a use adjective of no use; not working or not achieving what is needed
Clearly what we have here is a failure in the bolding department, perhaps due to inadequate familiarity with rc.com's handy buttons. The rc.com adept would have applied the buttons in this way:
diebetes wrote: Like I said, for me this device is useless. This is not the same as not having a use
Yet another reason that us older folks shouldn't be allowed near computers.
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angry
Dec 17, 2007, 5:58 PM
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Threading the ATC improperly is done almost entirely by beginners and is almost impossible outside of the gym.
They take the end of the rope through one hole and out the other. The belay biner is only clipped to the cable of the belay device. You see this a lot with 14 year olds.
Many gyms have a knot at the end and covered in tape so you have to set up the belay via a bite. This pretty much fixes the problem.
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diebetes
Dec 17, 2007, 6:21 PM
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Jbitz wrote: Even if a regular ATC is threaded wrong it will still work just not as smoothly.
Not always true.
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diebetes
Dec 17, 2007, 6:27 PM
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angry wrote: Threading the ATC improperly is done almost entirely by beginners and is almost impossible outside of the gym. They take the end of the rope through one hole and out the other. The belay biner is only clipped to the cable of the belay device. You see this a lot with 14 year olds. Many gyms have a knot at the end and covered in tape so you have to set up the belay via a bite. This pretty much fixes the problem.
Exactly. As does a single slotted belay device. So you see the benefit of said device, just don't want to go against the crowd (many of whom have joined the discussion only to appear informed, when in reality they aren't). Look, I've said it numerous times, to ME this device has no added value. I am not willing to project MY situation unto OTHERS. That's arrogant and narrow minded, imo.
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Jbitz
Dec 17, 2007, 6:42 PM
Post #169 of 184
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In reply to: In reply to: Even if a regular ATC is threaded wrong it will still work just not as smoothly. Not always true.
Explain?
If you go down through the ATC and then through a biner and back out any one of the slots it still functions just not as well in the incorrect configuration. Any other mistakes that I can think of off the top of my head can be made with either the ATC-nOOb or standard ATC.
(This post was edited by Jbitz on Dec 17, 2007, 6:46 PM)
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angry
Dec 17, 2007, 6:57 PM
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Reread my post, just a few above you.
It happens frequently and would be impossible to do with an ATC noob.
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markc
Dec 17, 2007, 6:58 PM
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diebetes wrote: (many of whom have joined the discussion only to appear informed, when in reality they aren't)
Now you've completely lost me. How hard is it to be 'informed' about a single-slot belay device? There's a long list of cons, and I have yet to be convinced of any real benefit. (As someone pointed out, this is actually heavier than a standard ATC.) You've admitted yourself that it's an extremely limited device. You've worked pretty hard to make up contexts where it's preferable to a double-slot device, but I remain unconvinced. Only a couple people have said they'd buy an ATC sport if they only climbed in the gym, etc.
Let me put it this way: If a new climber doesn't have the capacity to correctly thread a standard tube-style belay device after receiving proper instruction, that person has no business belaying. Do you disagree?
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curtis_g
Dec 17, 2007, 7:04 PM
Post #172 of 184
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Jbitz wrote: In reply to: In reply to: Even if a regular ATC is threaded wrong it will still work just not as smoothly. Not always true. Explain? If you go down through the ATC and then through a biner and back out any one of the slots it still functions just not as well in the incorrect configuration. Any other mistakes that I can think of off the top of my head can be made with either the ATC-nOOb or standard ATC.
Any other mistakes were already mentioned by Angry. That other mistake being clipping only the cable of the ATC and not the rope.
By the logic that we should dumb down equipment so that the uneducated make fewer mistakes...why not make the tether on the auto-belays out of full strength rope. This way even if you just clip the tether because you're an idiot, you won't be hanging your life on 4mm cord.
Anyone who can't learn to thread an ATC correctly should not be climbing alone without someone double checking everything they do save for tying their shoes.
(edited to credit Angry with the misuse explanation)
(This post was edited by curtis_g on Dec 17, 2007, 7:07 PM)
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reno
Dec 17, 2007, 7:05 PM
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markc wrote: diebetes wrote: i guess you've never seen somebody (usually new to climbing) thread an ATC incorrectly. So the solution to someone threading an ATC improperly is trying to dumb down the ATC? Sorry, I think that's more than a little misguided.
Exactly. "If you make something idiot-proof, someone will just come along with a better idiot."
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angry
Dec 17, 2007, 7:36 PM
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What's funny is the people in this thread vehemently argueing about the inferiority of this device. I know you're not going to buy one. I'm not going to buy one either.
Some beginner in the gym just might buy one and like it.
Has anyone been harmed? Is the world going to end?
My favorite part about this is the black and white arguement folks.
Poster A: I've seen a beginner thread an ATC wrong. This might help.
Poster B: If he isn't properly trained then he has no business being in the gym. My mentor taught me for 9 years before he let me belay on my own. IF I EVER SEE SOMEONE SET UP A BELAY WRONG I WILL KILL THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY!!!
Poster A: I don't want one, I'm just saying there might be a market
Poster B: FUCK OFF MOTHERFUCKER, I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU!!!! ::shitz pantz in rage::
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cintune
Dec 17, 2007, 7:52 PM
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"How hard is it to be 'informed' about a single-slot belay device?"
That's the funniest thing I've read in a while right there.
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