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thomasribiere
Jan 19, 2008, 12:16 PM
Post #76 of 127
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obe wrote: sandstone climber just put up a forum with the discussion of chipping an already climbed and climbable problem. but what about an unclimbable problem? A few of my friends and i found this boulder with a few really cool problems on it. but on one side of the boulder is the mosr beautiful line there: 3 feet of vertical wall leading to a perfect about 12 foot rounded overhand, probably 45 degrees, with a perfect top out. the problem: there is not a SINGLE feature on it. so, i know this isnt a problem i think that the "future generation" can send. i really want to chip or glue holds on it and make it a rad line, but it somehow feels wrong. Opinions?
if there's nothing : two possibilities. Either leave it blank. Do we have to climb every boulder on earth? Or chip holds if you conscience iS OK with it and if other climbers area agrre with that - if not, don't chip holds.
I don't see the point to make a whole discussion about a simple problem.
NB : we can suppose that if thers's nothing, there's nothing. To presume that one day ppl willl be able to climb everything is megalomaniac. We are not geckos or insects.
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camhead
Jan 19, 2008, 4:32 PM
Post #78 of 127
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rockclimbergabor wrote: Most hard classic routes including Kryptonite, La Rambla, and even Realization are chipped
I always thought that Kryptonite was natural for the FA, and only got "comfortized" by subsequent unnamed attempts. Caldwell has been pretty vocal about his disdain for routes with manufacturing, specifically at the VRG, and has publicly declared the Fortress, where Kryptonite and Flex Luthor are, to be a "no chip area."
Furthermore, your whole argument is irrelevant. The O.P was asking about manufacturing a route on a totally blank face; you were talking about SOME manufacturing in order to connect natural features into a cohesive line. Pretty different situations.
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stabla
Jan 19, 2008, 11:41 PM
Post #79 of 127
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corson wrote: Every time I drive down route 3 towards I 95, I swear, speed , get stressed out and pissed off ,and swear and pass on double yellow lines and swear, and wonder where all these slow ass, dumb fucks came from and why the hell they cant get out of the passing lanes and let me by legally. I am going a blistering 60 MPH in a 55 MPH zone mind you. Alexia looks at me and says EVERY time(i drive this route 4 times a week twice a day),why do you do this to yourself,why do you get so upset.its not worth it etc,etc. The sane voice of a women who hasn't yet endured a 2 year struggle with a proj. Anyhow, I feel like that every time I read a dumbass post like this one. It makes me HATE THIS SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yet I read 80% of the posts in response to OBE's asinine post.It is like a downward spiral of complete fucking dumbass comments, and some funny and clever ones too.(few and far between) .Sorry for the rant I'm just sick of stupid shit. Like its OK to chip if you climb v13 or harder. Thats the stupidest shit i've heard all day. in a nut shell chip if you want dont chip if you dont want to if you chip you are a weak minded poser who lacks the integrity and disipline to train or are to much of an ego maniac to realize that the line is just to hard. with that being said ,I have climbed and enjoyed many manufactured routes across the US and europe.And have seen some real bags of shit too. I have got to take this site off my favorites list  There are good guys and assholes on every street,on every block, in every town, everywhere.
I want to chime in here even though this is extremely off topic...
Its my own little theory of driving relativity... Getting upset and angry at others over something as simple as driving is kind of strange I believe...
First and foremost to understand what I am about to suggest you must try to grasp the concept that the world does not revolve around yourself.
If you begin to think about this in a broader sense you might be able to come to the next conclusion...
That the people you are sharing the road with might be in a different situation than your own. For example the car in front of you might be driving slow or carefully because of any number of situations you can imagine (baby on board, can't get another speeding ticket, etc)
I think this logic can be applied to a few other situations in life. Don't get angry or stressed because someone doesn't share the same views as yourself. They come from different backgrounds/environments which have molded there worldviews and thoughts accordingly.
I truley hope those that read this post don't see it as sarcastic or condescending in any way.
Peace
Blake
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rockclimbergabor
Jan 21, 2008, 1:12 PM
Post #80 of 127
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OK, some responses to my original post:
Petsfed -
First off, in my experience chipping is not motivated by laziness at all. You need to realize the amount of time and effort that people have put into creating routes. True, sometimes routes got chipped in order to bring it down to a certain grade so the first ascentionist could do it. This is not acceptable. But like I said, in some cases routes just wouldnt have gone without chipping. For example, anyone that says The Crew or Zulu in Rifle could have gone natural has no idea what they are talking about. Or most 5.14s in Mount Charleston.
Also, its not true that the natural routes arent being bolted. I know plently of people that bolt natural routes only that they think is possible, regardles of how hard. In Spain, for example, tons and tons of natural routes are being bolted everyday, a lot more hen chipped routes.
Curt-
I dont think thats always the case. For example, theres a crag in the south of France called Les Gorges du Loup which is known for its chipped routes. The problem there is that the wall has a bunch of natural tufas on them, but between these tufas are blank 20-30 foor sectios of rock with no holds on them. The way the rock is featured it is usually completely blank, not the smallest edge or anything that could potentially be used as a hold. And I dont think anyone in the future, regardless of how strong climbers might get, will be doing 30 foot dynos on a 45 degree overhanging wall. Im not trying to be pessimistic and say that we have reached the absolute limit of hard climbing, but after a while it comes down to possible and physically impossible. Of course I agree with you that in certain cases, routes have been chipped that could have gone naturally.
Sammmy -
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but the point that I was trying to make was that instead of automatically bashing every form of chipping ever done, people need to realize that although it may have been a bad thing, chipping did help progress our sport and create hard, notorious testpieces that are well known and respected. And I think that most people would disagree with you that Realization is not a classic route.
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timl
Jan 21, 2008, 1:55 PM
Post #81 of 127
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rockclimbergabor wrote: OK, some responses to my original post: Also, its not true that the natural routes aren't being bolted. I know plently of people that bolt natural routes only that they think is possible, regardles of how hard. In Spain, for example, tons and tons of natural routes are being bolted everyday, a lot more hen chipped routes.
I've been thinking about this drilling/chipping question for a while.
To start out with I started climbing in the States and I prefer natural lines. In my opinion they are better and its better not to dumb down a route.
And then I moved to Spain.......
So my first year here climbing in my local sport area, Cuenca near Madrid, I made the statement to my friends that I wouldn't climb any chipped routes and that I thought it was bullshit to chip or drill out pockets. They just kinda laughed. Well it ends up that about anything above 7a has a chip or a drilled pocket. The majority of the routes in Cuenca are above 7a and the majority of the routes have a drilled pocket or a chipped crimper. It's just the way it is here and people here really don't seem to care. It seems the harder the route, especially in the 8a area, the more manufactured the route is.
Yesterday, I climbed a route, 25 meter overhaning/roofish thing that only had one natural hold. Read it again, ONE NATURAL HOLD IN 25 METERS. The route was manufactured purely from a blank wall to be 7c with drilled out pocketes with cement inside them to make them more comfortable. As I was looking at the route while climbing it and the wall around the route I noticed that there was no way anybody could climb a route there. It's easy to say impossible. There's just nothing. Trust me, I'm all for leaving projects for the future, but this wall was impossible. So what do I think about this route. I'm not sure yet. The route was fun but I wouldn't say quality. The climbing was good, but I'd never advocate manufacturing a route, but in this instance I'm not complaining about it neither condemning it.
The rock in Cuenca is medium to good quality limestone with black sections between crimpers and pockets. If you look at the statistics, the majority of the routes are 7a/5.12 and up. We're talking 7a/5.12 with a drilled out pocket to make the route not be 8c or 5.14. I was firmly against this, but now I'm not to sure. Your talking about 100's of routes that actually just wouldn't go and now they are classics. I think each area and route should be judged accordingly and also depending on the rock. I myself would never chip, chisel or drill a pocket. But I am quietly giving my approval by climbing these routes and enjoying the climbing.
This way of thinking is not for every area, but I think you would be surprised about how much it actually goes on especially with some of the harder famous routes. For instance I doubt this would ever happen in the local granite area where I climbing close to Seattle, and I hope it never does. But there they have a different set of ethics and the rock is different. It's really hard to compare. I guess it's up to you to decide!
(This post was edited by timl on Jan 21, 2008, 1:59 PM)
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rockclimbergabor
Jan 22, 2008, 12:56 PM
Post #84 of 127
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No, Chris obviously didnt chip realization. In fact, I dont think the extension part has any of the chipped holds, its more the bottom 8c+ part. People dont really consider that a route anymore, however, so its not incorrect to say that realization is chipped. I tried it this summer and its pretty obvious that some of the pockets are either comfortized or chizeled out to be better then they were originally. But its not just realization.. many of the other routes on the biographie wall, including No Futur 8c+, La Chronique 8c, and Le Cadre 8c are chipped as well.
Heres another example. This summer a new 9a route was climbed in Les Gorges du Loup (France) by Alex Chabot. The route has a really cool sequence on natural crimps and pockets, but right in the middle there was one tiny section where there were no holds. All it needed was one extra hold to go all th way to the top of the cliff. So the locals decided that instead of randomly ending the route halfway up on an unobvious finish, they would chip one hold and have a super classic, long new route. (Even with the chippe dhold, the crux is a three move V11 involving a big move to and off of a mono.) In my opinion, it was better to chip it then to leave it in natural state because theres no way it could have been climbed to the top natural. It would have been a pretty lame route if not chipped, but now its truely an amazing line. Opinions?
(This post was edited by rockclimbergabor on Jan 22, 2008, 12:58 PM)
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chilli
Jan 22, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #85 of 127
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that photo was just horrid! i laughed at first because i thought it was a joke. i thought it was some kind of hillarious satire going over the top in imitation of chippers (and other rock-defacers), but that crap with all the holds is for real! that has got to be the most disgusting company i have seen. bastards!
:rant over:
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yokese
Jan 22, 2008, 7:50 PM
Post #86 of 127
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rockclimbergabor wrote: [..] La Rambla [..] (is) chipped
Are you sure of that??
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freeledgeledgy
Jan 22, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #87 of 127
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dbrayack wrote: Is it limestone? If it is, you can drill pockets, then get some strong acid to make it look natural...works like a charm. Send me a PM and I'll give you the acid concentrations that I'm using...also, a Fossil Hammer works well for opening stuff up...
this is a joke right? you can't be serious?
Consider this a WARNING: Keep that shit out of NC
you should be ashamed of yourself
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freeledgeledgy
Jan 22, 2008, 10:10 PM
Post #88 of 127
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P.S. for all you chippers out there...
Take a lesson from a bouldering pioneer/legend:
Check out John Sherman's letter in Urban Climber Issue #21
if you want to "Make" routes...do it in the gym
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dbrayack
Jan 22, 2008, 10:16 PM
Post #89 of 127
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freeledgeledgy wrote: dbrayack wrote: Is it limestone? If it is, you can drill pockets, then get some strong acid to make it look natural...works like a charm. Send me a PM and I'll give you the acid concentrations that I'm using...also, a Fossil Hammer works well for opening stuff up... this is a joke right? you can't be serious? Consider this a WARNING: Keep that shit out of NC you should be ashamed of yourself
Get those panties unbunched....typical hard nosed traddy....
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j_ung
Jan 22, 2008, 11:55 PM
Post #90 of 127
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Your troll skills have improved, sir.
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mtnjohn
Jan 23, 2008, 1:01 AM
Post #92 of 127
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Registered: May 17, 2002
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Whenever you see a chipped or "modiifed" route, just improve upon thier efforts.
Drill out steps and holds and install safety rails. Then we can add ADA compliant systems as well.
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sammmy
Jan 23, 2008, 3:03 AM
Post #95 of 127
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rockclimbergabor wrote: OK, some responses to my original post: Sammmy - Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but the point that I was trying to make was that instead of automatically bashing every form of chipping ever done, people need to realize that although it may have been a bad thing, chipping did help progress our sport and create hard, notorious testpieces that are well known and respected. And I think that most people would disagree with you that Realization is not a classic route.
Well I didn't drop a big name route or anything, just saying if it's chipped, I don't really think it qualifies as a classic, but that's probably just my backward thinking. But it all boils down to...
Ok, but just keep that shit outta my backyard.
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tallndorky
Jan 23, 2008, 5:21 AM
Post #96 of 127
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Registered: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 22
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Speaking on bolts Fred Beckey said "if your gonna place one make sure its a good one" the same goes for chipped routes.
Make sure it is good, and around v4 or v5 so lots of people can have fun on it.
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curt
Jan 23, 2008, 6:08 AM
Post #97 of 127
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tallndorky wrote: Speaking on bolts Fred Beckey said "if your gonna place one make sure its a good one" the same goes for chipped routes. Make sure it is good, and around v4 or v5 so lots of people can have fun on it.
Hell no. Make it at least V8 so I can do it--and you can't.
Curt
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jt512
Jan 23, 2008, 6:21 AM
Post #98 of 127
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dondada wrote: sorry........i dont spell check my posts......i wrote that @ 4 in the morning at work.......i bet if we went back and looked at your ten thousand posts(loser) we'd find a mistake or two.......i understand that tuff is tough however this is not a term paper to be critiqued its the web..........any one anal E nuff 2 check grammer out there ??????
Just out of curiosity, how do you decide how many dots to randomly insert in place of a simple period?
Jay
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curt
Jan 23, 2008, 6:31 AM
Post #99 of 127
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jt512 wrote: dondada wrote: sorry........i dont spell check my posts......i wrote that @ 4 in the morning at work.......i bet if we went back and looked at your ten thousand posts(loser) we'd find a mistake or two.......i understand that tuff is tough however this is not a term paper to be critiqued its the web..........any one anal E nuff 2 check grammer out there ?????? Just out of curiosity, how do you decide how many dots to randomly insert in place of a simple period? Jay
J dude r u a grammar knotzie wif nothing betur 2 do....? I meen fuk...
Curt
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freeledgeledgy
Jan 25, 2008, 3:34 PM
Post #100 of 127
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dbrayack wrote: j_ung wrote: Your troll skills have improved, sir. funny enough, someone (I won't mention any names) serious told me this. I think its funny, how some people think that climbing is a pure sport...seriously, if only you knew what enviromental rape goes into climbing areas.....did you think that there was always that nice landing zone for that boulder? Or that'd great place to belay....
sure....everybody knows that climbers greatly impact the environment around climbing sites....
THAT DOSEN'T MEAN WE SHOULDN'T TRY TO MINIMIZE OUR IMPACT
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