I assume you are asking about the black *extender thingys*...I don't know anything about that. Do you?

If you look closely, the two main ropes are each attached to the power points by a cord tied around the rope in a prussik, looped thru the biner, then prussik'd onto the rope again.

I would say some sorta zip line or high line, non tensioning side of course. I'm leaning toward a zip line cause there are no tag lines or haul lines.

OK. Thanks. well it looks like if the prussiks failed, the load would be taken up by ? Can you tell what the coil of black rope is attached to? It doesn't look like its into all of the bolts

So then there's still slack in the lines behind the prussiks that have "started" to slip? What good does that do? As soon as someone weights it they slip some more? Then what?

Since you do not know how far to tension the main lines, you start with a few feet of slack and once you start loading the mainline, the pruisk may slip but unevenly among the both lines. At some point, the tension on both lines becomes even and that is where you leave everything.

Majid, diagrams please.

So what are you, the VP of RC or something ?

Shut up and take notes you wanabee n00ber

For ladies like you who can't tell different between fig 8 knot a butterfly knot, sure he is much better than me but do not forget,you always be my bitch.

Sure

How about these ?

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4515/p1010107jq5.jpg[/IMG]

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7456/p1010115yo0.jpg[/IMG]

This technique is also used in tech. rescue to determine if a guiding line is being over tensioned during a lowering operation.

Guiding lines utilize a 3:1 pully system at the bottom staffed with 2 to 3 people. This is the reason the system could potentialy be over tensioned. It's a barometer if you will, for the safety to determine if to much tension is being applied to the system.

This technique is also used in tech. rescue to determine if a guiding line is being over tensioned during a lowering operation.

There doesn't seem to be any pulley system involved at all.
So what's up with that?

http://www.climbing.com/news/press/saferblack/

"This May, Rangers at the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park upgraded the Tyrolean traverse that spans the Gunnison River between the North and the South Chasm View walls. This important Tyrolean allows access to the south side from the Cruise Gully and has been an integral part of many link-up ascents, and saved countless climbers from being stranded on the south side of the canyon -- a two - hour drive from the North Rim Campground, the traditional staging area for ascents in the Black."

Yes. Though prusiks might possibly be used as some kind of fail-safe indicator, it's clearly not the case here.
Sure glad we got that cleared up.

I read the article, but there are no technical details accompanying the pictures, so that was my impression. The OP's idea, which I think is wrong, is that the prusicks are there to avoid overtensioning.

No, The prusik are there as an overtensioning indicators. I also posted another impage with 4 lines going a cross a river with pullies and 8 prusik.That came from a recent training.

"Have it your way, man, but I think you're wrong, and I already explained why. "

Well that's all fine and dandy, but it's clear you do not understand the concept, especialy when it is in regads to rescue work.

Majid:

Maybe I was a bit too specific, but the system can well be used for raising as well. Am I missing something else, some other use for the guiding line?

No for raising this is a perfect system but when you said lowering, I was scratching my head trying to figure out the application.

gi gi
The prusik in these type of rig does only one thing and that is to indicate when you are redlining your system by over tensioning. If you do not have rigging background, this sort of things makes no sense to you.

While these anchors look elegant, the lack of MA at either end makes re-tensioning it a few weeks/months down the road a non-trivial matter.

No for raising this is a perfect system but when you said lowering, I was scratching my head trying to figure out the application.

gi gi
The prusik in these type of rig does only one thing and that is to indicate when you are redlining your system by over tensioning. If you do not have rigging background, this sort of things makes no sense to you.

With all due respect, you do not understand the concept. It has nothing to do with re-tensioning anything. IT'S AN INDICATOR IF THE SYSTEM IS BEING OVER TENSIONED OR NOT. JUST LIKE THE OIL LIGHT ON YOUR CAR. IF IT COMES ON, YOUR LOW ON OIL. IN THIS CASE IF THE SYSTEM IS BEING OVER TENSIONED, THEN THE LOOP IN THE ROPE WILL START TO SLIP, THEREFORE, THE SYSTEM IS BEING OVER TENSIONED.

IF ANYONE IS USING THIS TYPE OF SETUP TO RE-TENSION A SYSTEM, THEN THEIR IDIOTS! My god, I've stated this multiple times on this thread, Majid made the same statement.

What part are you not clear on?

socialclimber:
when you say lower and raise with a guiding line do you mean vertically ( vertical or overhung) or low angle stuff like moving a patient across a very uneven ground? I have used a guiding line for deflecting the path of a litter on a highline (english reeve), for moving a litter away from the wall on near vertical slopes, and moving alitter across a scree(sp?)field.

Binrat

Either or. Guiding lines can be used in a variety of fashions. And yes, you can even use them in a horizontal setup if need be, i.e. redirecting a vertical setup to move around a large boulder or what have you to get the patient to level ground.

As I understand it, and this is not fact, the term "High Line" .vs. "Guiding Line" are no longer interchangeable, they are now indeed different.

Hopefuly Majid will pipe in since he's more current than I am at this point. I stopped doing SAR stuff about 3 years ago, but it was made clear to us that these are both different concepts and systems.

Confused yet? Yup... know the feeling

Either or. Guiding lines can be used in a variety of fashions. And yes, you can even use them in a horizontal setup if need be, i.e. redirecting a vertical setup to move around a large boulder or what have you to get the patient to level ground.

As I understand it, and this is not fact, the term "High Line" .vs. "Guiding Line" are no longer interchangeable, they are now indeed different.

Hopefuly Majid will pipe in since he's more current than I am at this point. I stopped doing SAR stuff about 3 years ago, but it was made clear to us that these are both different concepts and systems.

Confused yet? Yup... know the feeling

GI GI

ok, lets take this to one level up . There are no tensioning system built on that side anchor (not on the image I post), therefore how are you going to take the slack out of the rope if you have no MA built-in on that end?.

Do not tell me you are going to use your hands to take the slack off the system on two separate ropes evenly and if so, how tight do you think you could tension those two rope by just using the hands?

Now I am willing to bet $5000 that you are wrong. $2500 to cover the cost of a course which I took last year that was 90 hours long in Yosemite and all we did was building systems like what you see here and another $2500 so I could retake it the course again just for the fun of it .

Do we have a bet?

GI GI

ok, lets take this to one level up . There are no tensioning system built on that side anchor (not on the image I post), therefore how are you going to take the slack out of the rope if you have no MA built-in on that end?.

Do not tell me you are going to use your hands to take the slack off the system on two separate ropes evenly and if so, how tight do you think you could tension those two rope by just using the hands?

Now I am willing to bet $5000 that you are wrong. $2500 to cover the cost of a course which I took last year that was 90 hours long in Yosemite and all we did was building systems like what you see here and another $2500 so I could retake it the course again just for the fun of it .

Do we have a bet?

trench

Every time you respond or butt in to a post that isn’t your specialty (like you got any), you are confirming that you are my bitch.

Two questions. First, why aren't the black ropes tied directly to the anchor points rather than to an individual bolt? It seems to me that if the prussiks are going to slip, you want to have that black rope equalized off of several points rather than just one. Even if the prussik will "absorb" some of the force and equalize it, why not just tie the ropes to the anchor points?

Second why the criss-cross anchor set up? It's more efficient to minimize (admittedly low already) angle between points. I suppose that if you believe that there's a danger that an entire half of your anchoring rock will break loose somehow, you'd want this setup. If that were the case, then you'd definitely want to have the black ropes straight to the anchor points anyway.

So how did it get tight in the first place?

shoo
I will try to answer for you.

first, redundancy. If the webbing fails then the whole line with webbing is gone. Having it into a bolt hanger takes links out of the equation.

Think again redundancy, having the webbing criss - crossing if 1 ara of the rock fails then you still have aleast 1 anchor.

trench

......you are confirming that you are my bitch.

quoting this one because majid loves to edit his posts...

There are a few easy ways to tighten the system.
Make a MA that would connect onto the end of the rope, or build a MA that would piggy back on the tandem prussiks that would be removed after tensioning.

Binrat

zeke sf


His posting ethics are indeed weak. We can only hope his advice isn't similarly flawed. We are counting on you Majid! Don't use butane when jet fuel is the gas that will make the rocket go!

I do not try to follow people’s post trying to dump negative comments that are not related to their subject and I always welcome intelligent and intellectual arguments especially, if it is related to topic I post . I never say I am right or wrong but even when If I do,at least I will try to bring enough facts and evidence to prove my point. The whole point of posting this was not to ask you guys wtf this system is or does. I know why these sorts of systems are built but, I always look forward to find out more about other applications, pros and cons and any other info which I may not be updated on.

NOW, on the unethical part me; when some college boy (trench n00b and his associates) comes in a tries to say something that is not related to the topic or his comments contains racial BS, you are guaranteed that I will rip his as* apart.

Zake
I delete my old post after few weeks or so it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreement with a particular person. This is just to keep no record on-line and have it low key. As far as talking on any intelligent and or getting in to an intellectual conversation well, it depends who I am talking too and how deep I want to cover a subject. I personally try to stay away from too many scientific argument due to fact that I may not be able to present or explain what I would like to say and I do not want be judged base on what people may read on some forum. Trench is been punk as* for long time I keep stopping myself from not getting in to on-line bashing with him or any of his similar buddies but once someone goes in to my sh*t list, they are there for long time plus, I do not know the fuc8ing guy and if he disagrees with a topic or something he sees then, he should get his punk as* down and use his knowledge and prove his point like how everyone else has done such as yourself, GI GI and the rest .He is posting BS, start his typical wabbit bashing with no reasons or make a dumb comment and then hide is not the way a man make his point therefore, I call him my lady cause he can not take like a man.

So, if they're all his bitch, is Majid the catcher or the pitcher? Time for a new poll?

Zake
I delete my old post after few weeks or so it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreement with a particular person. This is just to keep no record on-line and have it low key. As far as talking on any intelligent and or getting in to an intellectual conversation well, it depends who I am talking too and how deep I want to cover a subject. I personally try to stay away from too many scientific argument due to fact that I may not be able to present or explain what I would like to say and I do not want be judged base on what people may read on some forum. Trench is been punk as* for long time I keep stopping myself from not getting in to on-line bashing with him or any of his similar buddies but once someone goes in to my sh*t list, they are there for long time plus, I do not know the fuc8ing guy and if he disagrees with a topic or something he sees then, he should get his punk as* down and use his knowledge and prove his point like how everyone else has done such as yourself, GI GI and the rest .He is posting BS, start his typical wabbit bashing with no reasons or make a dumb comment and then hide is not the way a man make his point therefore, I call him my lady cause he can not take like a man.

Arrogant_Bastard

In mid 70s, I saw drug addicts on the street shooting needles and drop dead the next day. In early 80s, I was climbing in southern Afghanistan (closer to Pakistan border) met a local who was having conversation with my mountain guide. Dude had near $1 million worth of heroin duct taped all over his body hitch hiking toward Turkey. Do you have any idea how much sh*t I seen in my life ?

Here's a simplified app that shows the force multiplication that results from various degrees of tensioning in a traverse.

http://www.tagsafety.com/info/tyrolean.php

As far as the prusiks go, the significant thing is that they provide rope-and-bolt-friendly shock-absorption when in use. Their diagnostic value, which Majid stresses, is only accessory to their superiority over attaching static line directly to the bolts and then riding the line. If for some reason someone starts bouncing, the prusiks slip instead of the knotted rope or the anchor failing.

Zake
I delete my old post after few weeks or so it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreement with a particular person. This is just to keep no record on-line and have it low key. As far as talking on any intelligent and or getting in to an intellectual conversation well, it depends who I am talking too and how deep I want to cover a subject. I personally try to stay away from too many scientific argument due to fact that I may not be able to present or explain what I would like to say and I do not want be judged base on what people may read on some forum. Trench is been punk as* for long time I keep stopping myself from not getting in to on-line bashing with him or any of his similar buddies but once someone goes in to my sh*t list, they are there for long time plus, I do not know the fuc8ing guy and if he disagrees with a topic or something he sees then, he should get his punk as* down and use his knowledge and prove his point like how everyone else has done such as yourself, GI GI and the rest .He is posting BS, start his typical wabbit bashing with no reasons or make a dumb comment and then hide is not the way a man make his point therefore, I call him my lady cause he can not take like a man.

The worst I've done is to point out when I think you're wrong and why I believe so.

Tell me now, who's the one that can't take it?

Arrogant_Bastard

In mid 70s, I saw drug addicts on the street shooting needles and drop dead the next day. In early 80s, I was climbing in southern Afghanistan (closer to Pakistan border) met a local who was having conversation with my mountain guide. Dude had near $1 million worth of heroin duct taped all over his body hitch hiking toward Turkey. Do you have any idea how much sh*t I seen in my life ?

n00ber

what do you mean "you THINK" I am wrong?

this is not how you said it. You said MS should take his rigging BS cause it is not climbing related where in fact, the images came from climbing magazine.

You been smoking gunga ?

GI GI

ok, lets take this to one level up . There are no tensioning system built on that side anchor (not on the image I post), therefore how are you going to take the slack out of the rope if you have no MA built-in on that end?.

Do not tell me you are going to use your hands to take the slack off the system on two separate ropes evenly and if so, how tight do you think you could tension those two rope by just using the hands?

Now I am willing to bet $5000 that you are wrong. $2500 to cover the cost of a course which I took last year that was 90 hours long in Yosemite and all we did was building systems like what you see here and another $2500 so I could retake it the course again just for the fun of it .

Do we have a bet?

You're the guy in a WFR course who wears his headlamp and helmet to the field sessions in the local city's park...

...right?

so where you climbin this weekend majid?

n00ber

what do you mean "you THINK" I am wrong?

this is not how you said it. You said MS should take his rigging BS cause it is not climbing related where in fact, the images came from climbing magazine.

You been smoking gunga ?

Since you do not know how far to tension the main lines, you start with a few feet of slack and once you start loading the mainline, the pruisk may slip but unevenly among the both lines. At some point, the tension on both lines becomes even and that is where you leave everything.