|
majid_sabet
Feb 26, 2008, 6:05 AM
Post #26 of 93
(4242 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 26, 2008, 9:13 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Feb 26, 2008, 6:16 AM
Post #27 of 93
(4235 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
majid_sabet wrote: tradrenn wrote: majid_sabet wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: cintune wrote: So then there's still slack in the lines behind the prussiks that have "started" to slip? What good does that do? As soon as someone weights it they slip some more? Then what? Since you do not know how far to tension the main lines, you start with a few feet of slack and once you start loading the mainline, the pruisk may slip but unevenly among the both lines. At some point, the tension on both lines becomes even and that is where you leave everything. Why do you think this belongs in a rock climbing forum? And if you're pre-tensioning a highline system until your double prusiks begin to slip, you're doing something seriously wrong. Why don't you take your SAR BS to the MRA forum? Or maybe Firehouse.com? Save RC.com for climbing related BS. So what are you, the VP of RC or something ? Shut up and take notes you wanabee n00ber He is way more useful then you are with your BS. For ladies like you who can't tell different between fig 8 knot a butterfly knot, sure he is much better than me but do not forget,you always be my bitch.
I don't need to prove shit to you boy.
I fixed the spelling of bitch for you, you MORON.
You're welcome.
|
|
|
|
|
timd
Feb 26, 2008, 12:29 PM
Post #28 of 93
(4189 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2003
Posts: 862
|
majid_sabet wrote: timd wrote: Majid, diagrams please. Sure How about these ? [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4515/p1010107jq5.jpg[/IMG] [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7456/p1010115yo0.jpg[/IMG]
That's it!! great job dude
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Feb 26, 2008, 1:50 PM
Post #29 of 93
(4172 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
This technique is also used in tech. rescue to determine if a guiding line is being over tensioned during a lowering operation.
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Feb 26, 2008, 2:25 PM
Post #30 of 93
(4152 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
socalclimber wrote: This technique is also used in tech. rescue to determine if a guiding line is being over tensioned during a lowering operation.
Over tensioning of a guiding line? Everything that I've read and seen the guiding line is used to deflect the litter slightly off the fall line, side to side or back and forth. This does not require a system like that or is this the bigger is better theory?
Binrat
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Feb 26, 2008, 2:45 PM
Post #31 of 93
(4139 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Guiding lines utilize a 3:1 pully system at the bottom staffed with 2 to 3 people. This is the reason the system could potentialy be over tensioned. It's a barometer if you will, for the safety to determine if to much tension is being applied to the system. Basicly if the prussic slips, the system is being over tentioned.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Feb 26, 2008, 3:16 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Feb 26, 2008, 3:22 PM
Post #32 of 93
(4115 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
socalclimber wrote: Guiding lines utilize a 3:1 pully system at the bottom staffed with 2 to 3 people. This is the reason the system could potentialy be over tensioned. It's a barometer if you will, for the safety to determine if to much tension is being applied to the system.
Yes, I agree but either I was not clear or something.
The use of TP for a guiding line is overkill. This is to be a line not taking the full weight of the load but partial for the movement of the load off the fall line.
Most people use 2 prussiks for a 3:1MA, 1 being a rachet and other a travelling one where the pulley is attached to make the MA. If something goes wrong the rachet P will take the load.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Feb 26, 2008, 3:28 PM
Post #33 of 93
(4113 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
damn! when I read the title I was sure we'd be seeing bikini pics of somebody's hot wife...
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Feb 26, 2008, 3:32 PM
Post #34 of 93
(4107 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
Hey, now thats an anchor that I would like to see 
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 26, 2008, 5:47 PM
Post #35 of 93
(4047 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
socalclimber wrote: This technique is also used in tech. rescue to determine if a guiding line is being over tensioned during a lowering operation.
Now you got my attention.
What do you mean "during lowering" ?
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Feb 26, 2008, 7:18 PM
Post #36 of 93
(4010 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
I think you are missing something. The prussic is attached to the "up hill" end of the rope, not the 3:1. About a foot to 2 feet of rope is left hanging just like you saw in the initial picture. It's there to act as a gauge. If the rope starts to slip through the prussic, then too much force is be applied to the guiding line.
Maybe we could get Majid to post up some pics with arrows and what not to describe the system. All in all, it'a great idea.
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Feb 26, 2008, 7:41 PM
Post #37 of 93
(3987 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
"South Anchor"
"North Anchor"
There doesn't seem to be any pulley system involved at all.
So what's up with that?
|
|
|
|
|
g_i_g_i
Feb 26, 2008, 8:25 PM
Post #38 of 93
(3972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2005
Posts: 53
|
In reply to: There doesn't seem to be any pulley system involved at all. So what's up with that?
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Feb 26, 2008, 8:41 PM
Post #39 of 93
(3967 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
http://www.climbing.com/news/press/saferblack/
"This May, Rangers at the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park upgraded the Tyrolean traverse that spans the Gunnison River between the North and the South Chasm View walls. This important Tyrolean allows access to the south side from the Cruise Gully and has been an integral part of many link-up ascents, and saved countless climbers from being stranded on the south side of the canyon -- a two - hour drive from the North Rim Campground, the traditional staging area for ascents in the Black."
|
|
|
|
|
g_i_g_i
Feb 26, 2008, 8:48 PM
Post #40 of 93
(3961 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2005
Posts: 53
|
cintune wrote: http://www.climbing.com/news/press/saferblack/ "This May, Rangers at the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park upgraded the Tyrolean traverse that spans the Gunnison River between the North and the South Chasm View walls. This important Tyrolean allows access to the south side from the Cruise Gully and has been an integral part of many link-up ascents, and saved countless climbers from being stranded on the south side of the canyon -- a two - hour drive from the North Rim Campground, the traditional staging area for ascents in the Black."
I read the article, but there are no technical details accompanying the pictures, so that was my impression. The OP's idea, which I think is wrong, is that the prusicks are there to avoid overtensioning.
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Feb 26, 2008, 8:52 PM
Post #41 of 93
(3960 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
Yes. Though prusiks might possibly be used as some kind of fail-safe indicator, it's clearly not the case here.
Sure glad we got that cleared up.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Feb 26, 2008, 9:45 PM
Post #42 of 93
(3925 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
cintune wrote: Yes. Though prusiks might possibly be used as some kind of fail-safe indicator, it's clearly not the case here. Sure glad we got that cleared up.
nb - No one has yet offered support for the assertion that a prusik knot can be assigned a slipping load value with any certainty. It is clear to me that cord diameter, rope diameter, cord stiffness, rope sheath texture, and number of wraps all have an effect on slipping load.
While these anchors look elegant, the lack of MA at either end makes re-tensioning it a few weeks/months down the road a non-trivial matter. But I guess I'd be happy to see the tyro there if I had to get across the river. I can think of a few spots around here where that might be a nice installation.
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Feb 26, 2008, 10:10 PM
Post #43 of 93
(3910 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
gunkiemike:
around 7 to 9 Kn for the tandem prussiks to slip.
binrat
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 26, 2008, 10:59 PM
Post #44 of 93
(3876 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
g_i_g_i wrote: cintune wrote: http://www.climbing.com/news/press/saferblack/ "This May, Rangers at the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park upgraded the Tyrolean traverse that spans the Gunnison River between the North and the South Chasm View walls. This important Tyrolean allows access to the south side from the Cruise Gully and has been an integral part of many link-up ascents, and saved countless climbers from being stranded on the south side of the canyon -- a two - hour drive from the North Rim Campground, the traditional staging area for ascents in the Black." I read the article, but there are no technical details accompanying the pictures, so that was my impression. The OP's idea, which I think is wrong, is that the prusicks are there to avoid overtensioning.
No, The prusik are there as an overtensioning indicators. I also posted another impage with 4 lines going a cross a river with pullies and 8 prusik.That came from a recent training.
|
|
|
|
|
g_i_g_i
Feb 26, 2008, 11:05 PM
Post #45 of 93
(3872 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2005
Posts: 53
|
majid_sabet wrote: g_i_g_i wrote: cintune wrote: http://www.climbing.com/news/press/saferblack/ "This May, Rangers at the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park upgraded the Tyrolean traverse that spans the Gunnison River between the North and the South Chasm View walls. This important Tyrolean allows access to the south side from the Cruise Gully and has been an integral part of many link-up ascents, and saved countless climbers from being stranded on the south side of the canyon -- a two - hour drive from the North Rim Campground, the traditional staging area for ascents in the Black." I read the article, but there are no technical details accompanying the pictures, so that was my impression. The OP's idea, which I think is wrong, is that the prusicks are there to avoid overtensioning. No, The prusik are there as an overtensioning indicators. I also posted another impage with 4 lines going a cross a river with pullies and 8 prusik.That came from a recent training.
Have it your way, man, but I think you're wrong, and I already explained why.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Feb 27, 2008, 2:14 AM
Post #46 of 93
(3805 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
"Have it your way, man, but I think you're wrong, and I already explained why. "
Well that's all fine and dandy, but it's clear you do not understand the concept, especialy when it is in regads to rescue work.
Majid:
Maybe I was a bit too specific, but the system can well be used for raising as well. Am I missing something else, some other use for the guiding line?
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 27, 2008, 5:53 AM
Post #47 of 93
(3775 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
socalclimber wrote: "Have it your way, man, but I think you're wrong, and I already explained why. " Well that's all fine and dandy, but it's clear you do not understand the concept, especialy when it is in regads to rescue work. Majid: Maybe I was a bit too specific, but the system can well be used for raising as well. Am I missing something else, some other use for the guiding line?
No for raising this is a perfect system but when you said lowering, I was scratching my head trying to figure out the application.
gi gi
The prusik in these type of rig does only one thing and that is to indicate when you are redlining your system by over tensioning. If you do not have rigging background, this sort of things makes no sense to you.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 27, 2008, 5:55 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Feb 27, 2008, 12:53 PM
Post #48 of 93
(3703 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
majid_sabet wrote: socalclimber wrote: "Have it your way, man, but I think you're wrong, and I already explained why. " Well that's all fine and dandy, but it's clear you do not understand the concept, especialy when it is in regads to rescue work. Majid: Maybe I was a bit too specific, but the system can well be used for raising as well. Am I missing something else, some other use for the guiding line? No for raising this is a perfect system but when you said lowering, I was scratching my head trying to figure out the application. gi gi The prusik in these type of rig does only one thing and that is to indicate when you are redlining your system by over tensioning. If you do not have rigging background, this sort of things makes no sense to you.
When I did rescue in the park down here, we used guiding lines for lowering as well. It works great when you need to maneuver the litter over talus fields etc.
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Feb 27, 2008, 1:40 PM
Post #49 of 93
(3690 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
gunkiemike wrote: While these anchors look elegant, the lack of MA at either end makes re-tensioning it a few weeks/months down the road a non-trivial matter.
I would think you would just establish another anchor and tension it through the prusik. The prusik holds the load, so you disconnect. Shouldn't be hard as long as the system hasn't loosened completely to the point where there is no slack left in the tensioned line to work with, no?
|
|
|
|
|
g_i_g_i
Feb 27, 2008, 4:34 PM
Post #50 of 93
(3639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2005
Posts: 53
|
majid_sabet wrote: socalclimber wrote: "Have it your way, man, but I think you're wrong, and I already explained why. " Well that's all fine and dandy, but it's clear you do not understand the concept, especialy when it is in regads to rescue work. Majid: Maybe I was a bit too specific, but the system can well be used for raising as well. Am I missing something else, some other use for the guiding line? No for raising this is a perfect system but when you said lowering, I was scratching my head trying to figure out the application. gi gi The prusik in these type of rig does only one thing and that is to indicate when you are redlining your system by over tensioning. If you do not have rigging background, this sort of things makes no sense to you.
With all the respect, socalclimber, I understand the concept quite well, it's not that hard to grasp, I just think that in this case the MAIN purpose of the prusiks is not to prevent overtensioning the lines, but allow for easy re-tensioning by whoever needs to use the lines and finds them a little too loose.
Majid, what do you know about my background, and what does or does not make sense to me?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
