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rossyy007
Apr 7, 2008, 2:43 AM
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I am new to Trad and i love it already, however have a question thats been nagging me. As i have seen video of Trotter and others projecting hard trad routes i cant help but wonder how they remove their gear after their failed attempts? If there is a simple walk up i guess the answer is simple, what if there is no walk up? Is their some type of aid technique that allows them to clean the pro??? Help a trad noob out...
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phillygoat
Apr 7, 2008, 3:27 AM
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The cameraman gets it out and gives it back to 'em!
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zeke_sf
Apr 7, 2008, 3:30 AM
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They downlead. n00b.
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petsfed
Apr 7, 2008, 3:47 AM
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There's aiding to the top, dogging to the top, walking to the top, or climbing an easier route to the top, if you go to the top.
Otherwise, down-aiding, down-leading, or falling.
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rjtrials
Apr 7, 2008, 5:20 AM
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petsfed wrote: There's aiding to the top, dogging to the top, walking to the top, or climbing an easier route to the top, if you go to the top. Otherwise, down-aiding, down-leading, or falling.
I'm sure they just clean it on lower, just as in sport climbing.
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c4c
Apr 7, 2008, 2:05 PM
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I think it rips when they whip
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petsfed
Apr 7, 2008, 3:01 PM
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rjtrials wrote: petsfed wrote: There's aiding to the top, dogging to the top, walking to the top, or climbing an easier route to the top, if you go to the top. Otherwise, down-aiding, down-leading, or falling. I'm sure they just clean it on lower, just as in sport climbing.
Well, that's the implication of getting to the top.
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fresh
Apr 7, 2008, 9:59 PM
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I've always wondered about this when it comes to roof cracks. must be a pain in the ass.
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ja1484
Apr 7, 2008, 10:10 PM
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Most of these routes in the "hard trad revolution" are a single pitch, meaning that retrieving items is, for obvious reasons, not terribly difficult.
Does the term "trad project" sound funny to anyone else?
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chossmonkey
Apr 7, 2008, 10:35 PM
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ja1484 wrote: Does the term "trad project" sound funny to anyone else?
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chossmonkey
Apr 7, 2008, 10:37 PM
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fresh wrote: I've always wondered about this when it comes to roof cracks. must be a pain in the ass.
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xtrmecat
Apr 7, 2008, 10:37 PM
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I'm pretty sure he should have said "hard gear route". If it's a trad send, then you either climb it and clean as per usual, or fall, retry or clean your remaining gear on lower.
Trad is not synonymous with gear.
Bob
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ja1484
Apr 7, 2008, 10:49 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I'm pretty sure he should have said "hard gear route". If it's a trad send, then you either climb it and clean as per usual, or fall, retry or clean your remaining gear on lower. Trad is not synonymous with gear. Bob
Preach to choir much?
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elvislegs
Apr 30, 2008, 4:25 AM
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ja1484 wrote: Does the term "trad project" sound funny to anyone else?
no, not really.
i think maybe it just sounds funny if your ears have been damaged by years of clanging cowbells.
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healyje
Apr 30, 2008, 5:04 AM
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xtrmecat wrote: Trad is not synonymous with gear. Bob
In an age when sprad climbing is becoming way to common, Bob's comment is actually pretty damn on target. When it comes down to it, the difference between trad and sport climbing isn't the gear or the bolts it's the dogging. Lots of folks these days apply sport tactics to climbing on gear by simply dogging their way up a climb one piece at a time - 'working' the route no different than a sport climb - thus the term 'sprad'.
Bob isn't preaching so much as just calling a spade a spade.
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zeke_sf
Apr 30, 2008, 2:31 PM
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healyje wrote: xtrmecat wrote: Trad is not synonymous with gear. Bob In an age when sprad climbing is becoming way to common, Bob's comment is actually pretty damn on target. When it comes down to it, the difference between trad and sport climbing isn't the gear or the bolts it's the dogging. Lots of folks these days apply sport tactics to climbing on gear by simply dogging their way up a climb one piece at a time - 'working' the route no different than a sport climb - thus the term 'sprad'. Bob isn't preaching so much as just calling a spade a spade.
Damn Jardine! Damn him to hell!
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elvislegs
Apr 30, 2008, 4:59 PM
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healyje wrote: xtrmecat wrote: Trad is not synonymous with gear. Bob In an age when sprad climbing is becoming way to common, Bob's comment is actually pretty damn on target. When it comes down to it, the difference between trad and sport climbing isn't the gear or the bolts it's the dogging. Lots of folks these days apply sport tactics to climbing on gear by simply dogging their way up a climb one piece at a time - 'working' the route no different than a sport climb - thus the term 'sprad'. Bob isn't preaching so much as just calling a spade a spade.
perhaps.
but why does it matter?
i mean, if you and i go out climbing together, and i hang my way up a route twice and then get the redpoint on my third try, and you onsight it with the purest of 'leader must not fall' mentality; everybody who cares or matters will know exactly who made the ascent in better style.
what else needs to be determined?
have i committed some sort of climbing sin if i call what i did trad climbing?
does your ego require that i call it sprad? cause if that will make it allright, i'm on board.
i like pushing my limits (which are admittedly low right now) on these sorts of climbs. sometimes that means i knowingly get on something harder than my current onsight level, and end up dogging through the hardest moves as i learn them.
it's going to happen. as people try to push crack climbing into harder and harder grades, and as small gear gets better and better, this will be the M.O. for those ascents. already is. and it's producing some fantastic lines (long and short) that just wouldn't get done otherwise.
so what?
it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative.
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healyje
Apr 30, 2008, 5:43 PM
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elvislegs wrote: healyje wrote: xtrmecat wrote: Trad is not synonymous with gear. Bob In an age when sprad climbing is becoming way to common, Bob's comment is actually pretty damn on target. When it comes down to it, the difference between trad and sport climbing isn't the gear or the bolts it's the dogging. Lots of folks these days apply sport tactics to climbing on gear by simply dogging their way up a climb one piece at a time - 'working' the route no different than a sport climb - thus the term 'sprad'. Bob isn't preaching so much as just calling a spade a spade. perhaps. but why does it matter?
First off, you aren't trad climbing - you're simply sport climbing on gear. Not a big deal I suppose as climbing continues its linguistic journey from 'climbing' to 'trad climbing' to the shadows of 'adventure climbing'.
Second, it's also a very dangerous practice and habit to get into - gear ain't bolts. There has been a disturbing increase in the last couple of years in the number of accidents caused by people attempting to treat gear like it's a bolt. Deciding you are simply going to place a piece to rest on is getting to be a major cause of accidents in 'trad' climbing. The same goes for falls from placements that are being 'worked' from but not checked each time it is unweighted.
elvislegs wrote: ...already is. and it's producing some fantastic lines (long and short) that just wouldn't get done otherwise.
I would say you are mistaken. At the high end people may be headpointing routes, but by and large hard trad routes aren't being freed or put up by dogging up them.
elvislegs wrote: it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative.
I'd say it's more of a health imperative and one of a very real distinction between different activities that, when blurred, tends to cause people to underestimate the objective risks posed and the necessary craft and skills one might want to develop to climb on gear in a 'safe' and effective manner.
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 30, 2008, 5:49 PM)
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jon06
Apr 30, 2008, 5:49 PM
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As you said, if there is a easy way to the top (be it a walk or an easier climb) then you lower off of your highest piece, get to the top then rap and clean.
If this isn't an option, then you can down climb and/or fall from piece to piece, removing the pieces as you go.
Most often if you have to bail off of a trad rout (i'm not going to distenguish between trad and gear and sprad or any of that jiba jaba) than you simply have to leave a peice. Obviously natural pro is the best (tree, horn, or chock stone); requiring only a runner if you rap, or a runner and a biner if you're lowered. Then a nut, and finally a cam or two (ouch).
Needless to say this can be pretty damn scetch and dangerous, or expensive. For you are relying on only one peice of pro or you're leaving a chunk of your rack.
I've never had to bail off of a cam, and dread the day i ever have to, but have bailed off all other options mentioned.
I find that the thought of having to bail of off a rout and supsequently leaving bail gear behind is one of the main factors in keeping me from pushing my limits on trad.
"Now you know, and knowing is half the battle"
- G.I. Joe
(This post was edited by jon06 on Apr 30, 2008, 5:55 PM)
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elvislegs
Apr 30, 2008, 9:40 PM
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healyje wrote: elvislegs wrote: ...already is. and it's producing some fantastic lines (long and short) that just wouldn't get done otherwise. I would say you are mistaken. At the high end people may be headpointing routes, but by and large hard trad routes aren't being freed or put up by dogging up them.
trotter and berthod work just about everything on lead numerous times. often taking multiple whippers onto small gear.
dean potter too.
there are videos of these types of sessions on several of the .13s at the creek... air sweden comes to mind as a well documented example.
i think it's being done at almost every level.
In reply to: elvislegs wrote: it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative. I'd say it's more of a health imperative and one of a very real distinction between different activities that, when blurred, tends to cause people to underestimate the objective risks posed and the necessary craft and skills one might want to develop to climb on gear in a 'safe' and effective manner.
i disagree, in my experience this argument usually centers around salty old dogs feeling obsolete and angry about the shortening of the "trad" learning curve. present company excluded perhaps?
i'm sure it sucks for them to see someone dogging and then redpointing routes that fifteen years ago were testpieces, only the seasoned hardman would even attempt. i'm sure it makes it worse if you feel that the kid doing the dogging has no respect or sense of history.
if some are indeed concerned about this as a safety issue. well, i'll grant you that working gear routes on lead is not as safe as top-roping them into oblivion, or climbing well below your limit on gear. but limiting risk is not the only component of climbing. if it were, we'd all just top-rope forever or not climb at all.
we pay all this money for gear that is supposed to hold us if placed properly, and we're not going to fall or rest on it? no way, i know how to use it, i'm not careless but i am going to USE it. i'll work hard(ish) cracks on lead, i'll fall and hang, i'll come back later and get it clean, and i'll probably call it trad climbing if i call it anything at all.
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healyje
May 1, 2008, 1:13 AM
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elvislegs wrote: healyje wrote: elvislegs wrote: ...already is. and it's producing some fantastic lines (long and short) that just wouldn't get done otherwise. I would say you are mistaken. At the high end people may be headpointing routes, but by and large hard trad routes aren't being freed or put up by dogging up them. trotter and berthod work just about everything on lead numerous times. often taking multiple whippers onto small gear. dean potter too.
Yes, but they aren't dogging piece-to-piece on them as far as I know.
elvislegs wrote: i think it's being done at almost every level.
Many more folks are doing it which is part of the reason for my comments - that and it's still a very bad idea.
elvislegs wrote: healyje wrote: elvislegs wrote: it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative. I'd say it's more of a health imperative and one of a very real distinction between different activities that, when blurred, tends to cause people to underestimate the objective risks posed and the necessary craft and skills one might want to develop to climb on gear in a 'safe' and effective manner. i disagree, in my experience this argument usually centers around salty old dogs feeling obsolete and angry about the shortening of the "trad" learning curve. present company excluded perhaps? i'm sure it sucks for them to see someone dogging and then redpointing routes that fifteen years ago were testpieces, only the seasoned hardman would even attempt. i'm sure it makes it worse if you feel that the kid doing the dogging has no respect or sense of history.
I could care less how folks choose to climb, but plugging gear to explicitly rest on it and repeatedly working a move off of a placement without checking it each time it is unweighted are very bad habits which are increasingly biting folks hard. And as I said, aside from the safety aspects of it, you aren't trad climbing - you're sport climbing on gear regardless of what you tell yourself.
elvislegs wrote: if some are indeed concerned about this as a safety issue. well, i'll grant you that working gear routes on lead is not as safe as top-roping them into oblivion, or climbing well below your limit on gear. but limiting risk is not the only component of climbing. if it were, we'd all just top-rope forever or not climb at all.
You miss the point entirely - sport climbing on gear is essentially an unsafe and inappropriate use of the equipment. The majority of folks might get away it a majority of the time, but the accident rate from doing it is increasing rapidly of late.
elvislegs wrote: we pay all this money for gear that is supposed to hold us if placed properly, and we're not going to fall or rest on it? no way, i know how to use it, i'm not careless but i am going to USE it. i'll work hard(ish) cracks on lead, i'll fall and hang, i'll come back later and get it clean, and i'll probably call it trad climbing if i call it anything at all.
No one is saying don't fall on your gear, but there are very real safety issues with plugging gear to rest and attempting to apply sport tactics to climbing on gear; again, it's simply a bad idea. Once again, regardless of your financial investment, cams and nuts aren't bolts - treat them like bolts at your peril, because you'll likely get bitten by it sooner or later.
(This post was edited by healyje on May 1, 2008, 1:34 AM)
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guangzhou
May 1, 2008, 3:28 AM
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elvislegs wrote: In reply to: healyje wrote: In reply to: elvislegs wrote: ...already is. and it's producing some fantastic lines (long and short) that just wouldn't get done otherwise. In reply to: I would say you are mistaken. At the high end people may be headpointing routes, but by and large hard trad routes aren't being freed or put up by dogging up them. In reply to: trotter and berthod work just about everything on lead numerous times. often taking multiple whippers onto small gear. dean potter too. In reply to: Yes, but they aren't dogging piece-to-piece on them as far as I know. ['quote] Yes, piece to piece. Actually, many work it on top-rope first, then practice lead it, then work it piece to piece again. A recent ascent of Phoenix by Steph Davis comes to mind. If I remember correctly, she even said, "I couldn't do a single move the first time I got on it." Phoenix also brings up that this has been done for years. have alook at the Hubber Brothers on El-cap. they work routes over and over. Ron Kauk worked "magic line" and climbed it free with the gear pre-placed. i hate to say it, but it's no sport route even with pre-placed gear. elvislegs wrote: i think it's being done at almost every level. In reply to: Many more folks are doing it which is part of the reason for my comments - that and it's still a very bad idea. No a bad idea if you place gear properly and know how to use your gear. I fall on my placements regularly. Mostly because I do like to push my climbing limit. More people doing it does man more people making mistakes, it's basic numbers. You still have not given a clear reason why it's dangerous. Why it's a bad idea? When I climb in Yosemite, i trust my gear placement a lot more than many of the bolts I come across. elvislegs wrote: healyje wrote: elvislegs wrote: it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative. In reply to: I'd say it's more of a health imperative and one of a very real distinction between different activities that, when blurred, tends to cause people to underestimate the objective risks posed and the necessary craft and skills one might want to develop to climb on gear in a 'safe' and effective manner. Actually, it's the fact that the climber wants to be safe that makes this activity so popular. Preplacing gear or working a route piece to piece with someone pushing themselves and limiting their personal risk. I would trust the gear placement of someone working a route a lot more then the gear placement of someone who never fals or hangs on their gear. One sends the message that I trust my placement with my life, the other send the message that I trust myself not to fall. In reply to: i disagree, in my experience this argument usually centers around salty old dogs feeling obsolete and angry about the shortening of the "trad" learning curve. present company excluded perhaps? i'm sure it sucks for them to see someone dogging and then redpointing routes that fifteen years ago were testpieces, only the seasoned hardman would even attempt. i'm sure it makes it worse if you feel that the kid doing the dogging has no respect or sense of history. In reply to: I could care less how folks choose to climb, but plugging gear to explicitly rest on it and repeatedly working a move off of a placement without checking it each time it is unweighted are very bad habits which are increasingly biting folks hard. And as I said, aside from the safety aspects of it, you aren't trad climbing - you're sport climbing on gear regardless of what you tell yourself. Not sport climbing. Sport climbing is climbing on bolts protected routes. these routes have bolts placed in a manner that helps eliminate any anxiety while leading so you can concentrate on the moves. I do agree they are not onsighting the route, but they are pushing themsleves, learning new moves, and enjoying the process. This is what climbing is for them. Top climbers don't climb the worlds hardest route by climbing routes they never fall on. Falling and hanging is part of climbing. Not all bolted routes are sport routes. If you think so, go check out the Apron or Stone MOuntain, maybe even Toulume Meadows. People were hang dogging routes long before sport routes came to be. Ray Jardine is a good example, but have alook at the history of climbing and you'll see that people were aiding routes to set up top=ropes, working moves out on lead, and hang dogging routes when they Aid to free revolution was taking place. People have been working the "Nose" of Elcap for years. Liquid Sky at Cathedral was worked so hard and long on the first ascent, that the climber hung a make shift porta-ledge for the belayer. All of these routes, and many more, were worked on gear long before sport climbing hit America roughly in the mid eighties at Smith. elvislegs wrote: if some are indeed concerned about this as a safety issue. well, i'll grant you that working gear routes on lead is not as safe as top-roping them into oblivion, or climbing well below your limit on gear. but limiting risk is not the only component of climbing. if it were, we'd all just top-rope forever or not climb at all. In reply to: You miss the point entirely - sport climbing on gear is essentially an unsafe and inappropriate use of the equipment. The majority of folks might get away it a majority of the time, but the accident rate from doing it is increasing rapidly of late. I think you're missing the point, the gear is safe when used and placed correctly. Believe it or not, the gear is actually design to hold when you fall on it. If it didn't hold, or if I didn't trust gear enough to fall on it, why would I buy it. Placing gear takes energy, that energy could be used to climb is I wasn't stopping to place the gear. the reason I use the energy to place gear is so when i fall, it keeps me safe. I don't head-point much, but I have, and I don't consider head pointing the same as sport climbing. By the way, bolts fail too. I personally trust gear that I place more then bolts placed by someone I don't know. I definately take whips on my well placed #11 Hex more easily than on some of the bolts I clipped across the country or around the world. I could even argue that climbing on preplaced gear is safer than sport climbing because I know my placements are good, I can't be sure about the bolts I clip. Except for the ones I placed myself that is. elvislegs wrote: we pay all this money for gear that is supposed to hold us if placed properly, and we're not going to fall or rest on it? no way, i know how to use it, i'm not careless but i am going to USE it. i'll work hard(ish) cracks on lead, i'll fall and hang, i'll come back later and get it clean, and i'll probably call it trad climbing if i call it anything at all. In reply to: No one is saying don't fall on your gear, but there are very real safety issues with plugging gear to rest and attempting to apply sport tactics to climbing on gear; again, it's simply a bad idea. Once again, regardless of your financial investment, cams and nuts aren't bolts - treat them like bolts at your peril, because you'll likely get bitten by it sooner or later. What real safety issues. Can you be specific please? I don't see any issues involved unless the gear is placed incorrectly. it sounds like you don't trust you gear placement enough to be comfortable falling. it's not uncommon. I see it often, climber who fall on bolts, but refuse to fall on gear. What this really means is that the climber is scared of falling on gear. By the way, hang dogging isn't a sport tatic. It's a climbing tactic. I know many sport climbers who don't work routes and avoid falling at all cost even on well protected sport routes. It's amind set. I place gear so that I can fall. In some case, I work routes on gear. My hardest trad first ascent I couldn't get on the first try. I ended up leading it placement to placement. i put in two belay bolts and lowered. Once on the ground, I top roped it and still couldn't do the move all at once. Those who climb with me know, I climb better when I am leading then when I am top-roping. So, on the way down, I placed the first two pieces. The moves were hard for me and I didn't want to have to worry about hiting the ground. I then pulled the rope and started up again. The following weekend, aided up the 20 feet and put in the first solid piece aain. Came down and shot for the ascent. i repaeated this over the course of four climbing days before I got the first ascent. maybe 30 attempts, the first dozen piece to piece. the route has seen two toher ascents in six years, not one onsight. It's not even that hard, just a 5.12b/c finger crack. Climbing piece to piece and hangdogging on gear is safe if the climber knows how to place gear correctly.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on May 1, 2008, 3:37 AM)
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zeke_sf
May 1, 2008, 4:06 AM
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^^^ Wow. That was some amazing cheesetitting right there. I agree with many of your and Elvisleg's points Guangzhou.
I think you're erecting a sliding slope machine without providing any actual backup for what you are claiming, Healyje. Course, I'm just a tradsportional climber.
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healyje
May 1, 2008, 5:36 AM
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Quite simple really, if you're dogging up routes on gear you aren't trad climbing, but rather sport climbing on gear. Bolts have never defined sport climbing - tactics did. And applying those tactics to gear routes is foolish.
You folks clearly aren't following accidents much I'm guessing - go through the various accident listings closely here and other climbing sites and see what you find. We've had three such accidents in recent times here in PDX alone.
Again, if you applying sport tactics to climbing on gear you can tell yourself that you're trad climbing and that's cool with me, but you're not kidding anyone else.
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ts83
May 1, 2008, 5:57 AM
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I respect that the people in this thread have more experience than I do, but I'm going to throw this out there... semantics ftl.
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