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zoltank
Jun 23, 2008, 3:07 PM
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I have a couple girls I'll top rope with sometimes, and both of them get very scared down climbing to the masterpoint to set up a rappel when we have a slingshot belay set up. We always anchor ourselves to the masterpoint with a sling before down climbing.
Recently, to make things easier, if I have an anchor close to the edge, I'll tie static line to it using a bowling on a bight to give me two working ends. Then, once the rest of the anchor is rigged up, I'll use the other working end to tie a munter hitch to a biner on their belay loop, and then lower them down to the masterpoint. They still anchor into the masterpoint with a sling before lowering. It's worked really well so far.
The problem is when my anchors are far enough back from the edge I don't have enough rope to tie a bowline on a bight with enough rope left over to run back to the edge. In this case, can I just simple tie an alpine butterfly on one of the anchor strands close to the edge and connect a shorter piece of static rope to it to tie the munter with? Could the butterfly be left tied until we're ready to break the anchor down? Should I use an inline eight instead?
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colatownkid
Jun 23, 2008, 3:28 PM
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i'm not quite sure what you mean...
you have a slingshot belay but cannot gain bottom access without rappelling? there is no walk-off?
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zoltank
Jun 23, 2008, 3:31 PM
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Sorry, the access is to the top of the cliffs. So you set up your anchor, drop your rope, everyone rappels down, then set up the belay.
In some places there are scrambles down and up, but it's more fun to rappel anyway.
(This post was edited by zoltank on Jun 23, 2008, 3:33 PM)
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coolcat83
Jun 23, 2008, 3:34 PM
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IMO butterfly is better then an 8 on a bight, why? it just seems to me like the strands come out in the right directions, any knot reduces strength but if you are tring the forces shouldn't be too high anyway, i'd leave it in if it's easier. but why not use a prussic loop to the static or anchor line instead? the ladies and you can slide it down as you downclimb a little, if you are anchoring yourself to the static and a fall is possible make sure the anchor can take it, and rest assured a static fall is gonna hurt if it's any real distance, consider a screamer as your teather, if there is a chance of falling a few feet onto static. belaying them down is a good technique also as long as you make sure no slack is in there.
my usual setup in that situation is pull up the masterpoint if possible and set up the rappel with a rap backup, setting the atc close to the rap rope strands, girth a sling with a locker to my belay loop (sometimes tie ins) clip that on, then a locker with a prussic to the static line(the other leg if possible and self belay down as i downclimb(can also use the prussic for support without locking it on hard if you are gentle, or use an autoblock or similar), the prussic has some give to it and the sling backs it up, when you get to the masterpoint you are set to go take off the prussic and DOUBLE CHECK you rap setup, if it's all good to go take the sling off the static and rap down.
this all seems really complicated and a cluster at first but it's actually not bad, takes a minute, and is just clipping a couple biners. and yes I am chicken but I prefer to not be splattered and I need to preserve my back for my career.
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zoltank
Jun 23, 2008, 4:03 PM
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I don't want to use a prussik for several reasons:
1. Using a munter the women don't even need to downclimb, I can just lower them the couple feet into position.
2. They have enough problems downclimbing, they don't need to be minding a prussik as well.
3. I'm not a fan of taking a fall onto a prussik.
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colatownkid
Jun 23, 2008, 4:10 PM
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to answer your question: i suppose you could tie your static line into the anchor with a butterfly, but for some reason that just seems sketchy to me.
one option would be to use a bowline on one end of the rope, instead of a bight in the middle. this would give you the ability to belay a distance half the total length of your static line. of course, what you're effectively doing is setting up a single-line rappel where you control the brake strand.
you might consider this instead. use your static line to build yourself an anchor. rig the anchor back from the edge so everyone has a safe amount of standing room. extend the anchor to the edge and throw your dynamic rope into the new masterpoint. the standing end of the static line can then be used as a "tether"--just tie a stopper and toss it over the edge. put a grigri/cinch on it and have the climber "rappel" the static line to the masterpoint. then put the climber puts her atc on the dynamic line and rappels.
if there's only one grigri to go around, you could even leave it clipped into the tether as someone is rappelling and pull it back up for the next person to use.
if there's no grigri's to go around, you could "rappel" with an atc and back it up with a prussik or similar above the atc. when you reach the masterpoint over the edge you can slowly let the prussik take the weight and switch the atc over to the dynamic line for the rappel.
does that make sense?
also, what are you rigging your anchor with that you can tie a static line into it easier than just tying into the masterpoint? are you using two static lines?
edited to add: sorry, i'm just envisioning some sort of cordelette rig in which case there probably isn't more than few feet between any given component piece and the masterpoint, in which case you could clip the component or the masterpoint without having to tie a butterfly in the middle of your rigging.
for that matter, are you building this anchor on gear, natural pro, or bolts?
(This post was edited by colatownkid on Jun 23, 2008, 4:12 PM)
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zoltank
Jun 23, 2008, 5:22 PM
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I'm not sure I'm communicating properly what I'm talking about. I'm using a single piece of 10mm static rope about 90 feet long to create my anchor.
I'm not lowering anyone to the ground, just down to where the masterpoint is over the, where they then set up a rappel and rappel the rest of the way on the climbing rope.
What I'm doing now:
What I'm thinking of doing:
Fear my Microsoft Paint skills!
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coolcat83
Jun 23, 2008, 5:55 PM
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that appears to be ok to me, although not ideal. but as it seems that you are indicating that the other people don't have a lot of rope skills i'd tach them how to do things and back them up with a belay until they are comfortable, what happens when your other peice that you are lowering them on is not long enough? perhaps you should just do total lowers? or have them rap the whole way on the climbing rope, use edge protection and let them go down, then you retie the powerpoint lower and rap? a pita but IMO i think what is needed is some skills.
How do you get down? there must be a method you use. why not teach them? if that's not suitable, then how about a prussic attaching the second static? that way you don't have to tie a knot.
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colatownkid
Jun 23, 2008, 6:06 PM
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gotcha. thanks for the visual.
my new suggestion:
if you're going to the trouble to bring a second static line, make sure it's long enough to make it from one of the trees down to the masterpoint and attach it there instead of using a butterfly. (see ex1.gif)
otherwise, instead of belaying your climbers down, allow them to "rappel" on the second working end to the masterpoint with a grigri and then set up the actual rappel to the ground. this should give you double the rope length at the end since you are no longer belaying. (see ex2.gif)
as for the original question... yes a butterfly can take load in three directions, but i don't know if i would want to leave it in place as part of the TR setup. something just doesn't sit right with me about doing it that way.
(This post was edited by colatownkid on Jun 23, 2008, 6:08 PM)
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ex2.gif
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qqac
Jun 23, 2008, 6:51 PM
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No need to complicate things for Zoltank. The short answer to Zoltank's original post is: yes, yes and both are fine.
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gunkiemike
Jun 23, 2008, 7:02 PM
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zoltank wrote: I have a couple girls I'll top rope with sometimes, and both of them get very scared down climbing to the masterpoint to set up a rappel when we have a slingshot belay set up.
What coolcat said. There is no reason why the girls need to do a scary rap. Just have them do a safe, sane rap off the tree(s) then you set up the TR powerpoint. They can fireman you as you downclimb to the PP. That's a better failsafe than a static connection with you some distance above it.
If you don't consider this a viable alternative, I have to ask why. As in - why are you deliberately scaring these novices? Is this a macho thing?
(This post was edited by gunkiemike on Jun 26, 2008, 4:27 PM)
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zoltank
Jun 24, 2008, 11:35 AM
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Yes. You figured it out. It's totally a macho thing. 
Why don't I do it Coolcat's way? Like he said, it's a pita. It's much faster and easier if I just lower them the foot or two to the masterpoint than if I have to go about resetting the anchor. Lowering them down isn't a hypothetical, that's how we do it now (when possible), and everyone is happy with it - no scared novices.
All this said, I'll probably just use a prussik or a tibloc instead of a butterfly to attach the second static line to my anchor.
(This post was edited by zoltank on Jun 24, 2008, 12:46 PM)
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dta95b7r
Jun 24, 2008, 12:42 PM
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You could just have them lean off the side of the cliff assuming its a 4ft sling only takes two quick steps and tadah!
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clc
Jun 24, 2008, 1:15 PM
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OK, I didn't read everything , ..but it sounds like you should just bring more rope. Have you friends rap on a completely separate rope from the safe top area down to the bottom of the climb. now when you rap down on the same rope as they did, you set up the top rope and continue down. I don't get what the problem is?? If the girls can't rap they should not be climbing anyway. Why take freaked out people? take them golfing instead.
john
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zoltank
Jun 25, 2008, 12:36 PM
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clc wrote: OK, I didn't read everything
You probably should have read everything.
They know how to rappel, I'm not buying and carrying more rope just to rappel on, nobody is freaked out, and they're the ones to want to go climb.
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laanguiano
Jun 25, 2008, 3:19 PM
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I wouldnt advise using an alpine or prussik on a rope as an anchor point for rappelling. You really should just anchor to the tree with your second rope.
In theory what you are wanting to do will work, but I prefer to use those methods as a backup, not my main source of protection.
You could leave the alpine knot in the rope after youre done, but if you are the last to go down, and arent going to use the 2nd line. Just untie the knot. If you dont untie it normal rules apply. You loose a percentage of rope strength by having a knot in your anchor.
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zoltank
Jun 25, 2008, 3:31 PM
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laanguiano wrote: You really should just anchor to the tree with your second rope.
*Sigh* The whole problem is sometimes my anchors are really far back from the edge. I've had to extend my 90' static before just to reach, so this would mean having to carry another rope which is a minimum of 55-60 feet long. Also, remember, I'm not lowering them to the bottom, just a foot or two to the masterpoint so they can set up their rappel on the climbing rope.
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laanguiano
Jun 25, 2008, 3:46 PM
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Okay putting aside that you should spend the money for some more rope :).. then I would do it this way.....
When you lower them down via your munter hitch were you lowering them off your harness or off the alpine knot? Id at least belay them off your harness, then anchor yourself off the alpine knot. At least this way you will serve as part of the anchor strength and will lessen the forces on your main rope anchor and that alpine knot. Once they get onto the rappel spot, untie yourself from the alpine knot and let them rappel.
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zoltank
Jun 25, 2008, 3:52 PM
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laanguiano wrote: Okay putting aside that you should spend the money for some more rope :)..
It's not the money, it's having to carry even more gear.
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Roasta
Jun 25, 2008, 5:58 PM
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With reference to your 2nd picture: I would suggest just positioning your master point higher a couple metres back from the edge for them to rap from. Then re-set up the TR setup.
For example: Tie a 2nd alpine on the other anchor line, bring it together with the other one making a new master point for the rappel. Clip your top-rope set up to this point. Now you have nicer angle of departure for the rap and no edge to lower them over. Remember to keep the slack going to the main top-rope master point tidy and out of their way.
Once they have rappelled, Simply unclipped the two biners from the Rappel master point, untie the alpines if you desire (take into account the effect the alipines have on the length of the anchor lines and therefore the position of the top-rope master point) and re-connect the biners to the original Top-rope master point (over the edge).
If it is a sketchy scramble down towards the edge, have them clip a locker and sling from their harness onto an anchor line. Make sure the master point is already established, there by creating a 'closed' system, so if they were to slip they will only slide to the 'rapel' master point.
Better yet, have them tether them self with a prusik to the anchor line. I understand this is an extra technique to teach and them learn but if they are keen on continuing to climb, they will need to learn at some stage.
With your anchor so far back the change in the critical angle at the new rappel master point should be insignificant.
Pretty simple, works well and saves on extra ropes and gear.
If you want to still use a lowering line, remember that you have half, possibly more, of your climbing rope you can utilize. Just tie it off at the master point and let them rap on a single line.
It is hard to explain stuff in words sometimes so if this makes no sense let me know and I'll try to clarify.
What I'm thinking of doing:
[image]http://www.korossy.org/pictures/anchor2.jpg[/image]
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erclimb
Jun 25, 2008, 6:25 PM
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"It's much faster and easier if I just lower them the foot or two to the masterpoint than if I have to go about resetting the anchor."
sounds inefficient and unnecessarily complicated to me...and, with nervous novices, dangerous
if you don't want to carry extra safety material, ask somebody else carry to it...or don't climb with novices...or buy some 3/8-inch static (half the weight and 3/4 the strength of 10 mil)...or set your anchor; then pull up the master point and make a bfk halfway to the anchor points and allow your friends to rappel from there; when everyone is down, remove the bfk to your original masterpoint and rap down yourself...or lower and belay from the top
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zoltank
Jun 26, 2008, 12:47 PM
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Roasta wrote: Tie a 2nd alpine on the other anchor line, bring it together with the other one making a new master point for the rappel. Clip your top-rope set up to this point. Now you have nicer angle of departure for the rap and no edge to lower them over. Remember to keep the slack going to the main top-rope master point tidy and out of their way. Once they have rappelled, Simply unclipped the two biners from the Rappel master point, untie the alpines if you desire (take into account the effect the alipines have on the length of the anchor lines and therefore the position of the top-rope master point) and re-connect the biners to the original Top-rope master point (over the edge).
I tired this yesterday and it worked the charm. Fast, easy, and no extra gear to carry.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 27, 2008, 3:23 PM
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zoltank wrote: Roasta wrote: Tie a 2nd alpine on the other anchor line, bring it together with the other one making a new master point for the rappel. Clip your top-rope set up to this point. Now you have nicer angle of departure for the rap and no edge to lower them over. Remember to keep the slack going to the main top-rope master point tidy and out of their way. Once they have rappelled, Simply unclipped the two biners from the Rappel master point, untie the alpines if you desire (take into account the effect the alipines have on the length of the anchor lines and therefore the position of the top-rope master point) and re-connect the biners to the original Top-rope master point (over the edge). I tired this yesterday and it worked the charm. Fast, easy, and no extra gear to carry.
Zoltank,
I wish I was adept at computer drawing, but I'm not so I will try to explain another option.
1. After setting up your toprope anchor, pull it up and and tie a separate power point in the two legs of your anchor. Rig rappel anchor on this knot. This will be above the edge of the cliff.
2. Your two gf's rappel on this anchor, never needing to downclimb.
3. After they are at the base, you untie this knot and you rappel on the toprope anchor.
Josh
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colatownkid
Jun 27, 2008, 4:15 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: zoltank wrote: Roasta wrote: Tie a 2nd alpine on the other anchor line, bring it together with the other one making a new master point for the rappel. Clip your top-rope set up to this point. Now you have nicer angle of departure for the rap and no edge to lower them over. Remember to keep the slack going to the main top-rope master point tidy and out of their way. Once they have rappelled, Simply unclipped the two biners from the Rappel master point, untie the alpines if you desire (take into account the effect the alipines have on the length of the anchor lines and therefore the position of the top-rope master point) and re-connect the biners to the original Top-rope master point (over the edge). I tired this yesterday and it worked the charm. Fast, easy, and no extra gear to carry. Zoltank, I wish I was adept at computer drawing, but I'm not so I will try to explain another option. 1. After setting up your toprope anchor, pull it up and and tie a separate power point in the two legs of your anchor. Rig rappel anchor on this knot. This will be above the edge of the cliff. 2. Your two gf's rappel on this anchor, never needing to downclimb. 3. After they are at the base, you untie this knot and you rappel on the toprope anchor. Josh
effectively the same solution mentioned above by Roasta.
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