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xtrmecat
Jun 26, 2008, 11:43 PM
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I'll even give this a dignified answer. Your probably in over your head.
Bob
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brutusofwyde
Jun 27, 2008, 1:11 AM
Post #27 of 112
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shimanilami wrote: What if my rack includes a drill? I've climbed stuff in Toulumne where I'm thinking, "Not putting a bolt here was pure arrogance. It may have been safe for Bachar, but for the rest of us it's plain dangerous." But because it "his" route, no one else can touch it. What gives? I don't complain, but there is something contradictory about the "its MY route, don't touch it" attitude.
Different thread.
Personally, I think Mona Lisa should have buck teeth, but I'm not going to take a can of rustoleum to her.
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bigwhitej
Jun 27, 2008, 1:19 AM
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3. [Welcome to the world outside the gym. Newsflash: No amount of equipment or bolts can keep you safe. You are on your own out here. Your safety is up to you. If you feel that a route is unsafely bolted, DON'T CLIMB IT. It is your responsibility and your choice to do so or not. Out here, your skills, knowledge, abilities, and focus determine whether you survive or not. Better get used to it]
What my point is that its not that it is too hard. Its that; all it takes is a small slip or very minor spot that yah sure it may be 5.4 to the first bolt but all it takes to end a season and maybe even a lifetime of enjoyment is one little really stupid little mistake, like an unexpected wet spot. Just trying to keep sport climbing as safe as possible so we can continue clibing for years to come.
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theguy
Jun 27, 2008, 2:02 AM
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bigwhitej wrote: Just trying to keep sport climbing as safe as possible so we can continue clibing for years to come.
Apparently you haven't absorbed the statements of others; why do you want to lead climb instead of continuing with top-roping? Is it just to access more routes?
You may wish to read Walter Bonatti's "The Mountains of My Life" to gain an appreciation of what he refers to as morals (rather than ethics): he's not very keen on modern climbing at all for its replacement of adventure and self-discovery with mere sport and athletics.
(This post was edited by theguy on Jun 27, 2008, 2:07 AM)
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MikeSaint
Jun 27, 2008, 2:49 AM
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bigwhitej wrote: Just trying to keep sport climbing as safe as possible so we can continue clibing for years to come.
Bigwhitej,
Climbing outside is scary. Sometimes, using a dictionary is scary.
With that said it may be best to find a local gym and stay inside for training. It might be best that you stay inside and let others figure out the bolting issues.
Anyone going to welcome Bigwhitej to RC.c0m?
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Jun 27, 2008, 2:54 AM)
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curt
Jun 27, 2008, 3:10 AM
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shimanilami wrote: What if my rack includes a drill? I've climbed stuff in Toulumne where I'm thinking, "Not putting a bolt here was pure arrogance. It may have been safe for Bachar, but for the rest of us it's plain dangerous." But because it "his" route, no one else can touch it. What gives? I don't complain, but there is something contradictory about the "its MY route, don't touch it" attitude.
Just stay off those routes. You'll be perfectly safe that way--and nobody will peek up your skirt and laugh.
Curt
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dingus
Jun 27, 2008, 3:14 AM
Post #32 of 112
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curt wrote: shimanilami wrote: What if my rack includes a drill? I've climbed stuff in Toulumne where I'm thinking, "Not putting a bolt here was pure arrogance. It may have been safe for Bachar, but for the rest of us it's plain dangerous." But because it "his" route, no one else can touch it. What gives? I don't complain, but there is something contradictory about the "its MY route, don't touch it" attitude. Just stay off those routes. You'll be perfectly safe that way--and nobody will peek up your skirt and laugh. Curt
Bfzhehehehehe!
DMT
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notapplicable
Jun 27, 2008, 4:02 AM
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shimanilami wrote: What if my rack includes a drill? I've climbed stuff in Toulumne where I'm thinking, "Not putting a bolt here was pure arrogance. It may have been safe for Bachar, but for the rest of us it's plain dangerous." But because it "his" route, no one else can touch it. What gives? I don't complain, but there is something contradictory about the "its MY route, don't touch it" attitude.
If you dont like to think of it from the perspective of the first ascentist having complete "artistic" control when establishing routes, try another angle.
In this sport of ours there are many different disciplines, Sport, trad, pebble punching, mixed, ice, alpine, gym, ect... With in those disciplines a myriad of styles abound and one of those stylistic preferences is "bold", "heady" or "heads up" climbing. Some perfer it that way, it requires techniques and skill sets unique to that particular style of climbing. Just like thin ice climbing, there is an art to it and for a select few, "heads up" is their prefered style of ascent. Thats a simple concept to grasp I would say and one we can all relate to.
I would never try to take the experience of well protected pocket pulling from someone for whom that was the discipline they choose as their focus. Its childish, obtuse and maddeningly unethical to think that people should not be free to enjoy a style of climbing because others cannot understand it.
I've found that "heady" (I hate that word but "bold" sounds to arrogant) climbing has informed both the rest of my climbing and my understanding self. I'd call that a worth while end, atleast enough so to justify the means. Wouldnt you agree?
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notapplicable
Jun 27, 2008, 4:02 AM
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dingus wrote: curt wrote: shimanilami wrote: What if my rack includes a drill? I've climbed stuff in Toulumne where I'm thinking, "Not putting a bolt here was pure arrogance. It may have been safe for Bachar, but for the rest of us it's plain dangerous." But because it "his" route, no one else can touch it. What gives? I don't complain, but there is something contradictory about the "its MY route, don't touch it" attitude. Just stay off those routes. You'll be perfectly safe that way--and nobody will peek up your skirt and laugh. Curt Bfzhehehehehe! DMT
Nevermind, that first post was drivel. What ^he^ said.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Jun 27, 2008, 4:04 AM)
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churningindawake
Jun 27, 2008, 4:59 AM
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I find that sometimes the first bolt is high because the rock is eroding beneath it, or they had to find a spot of solid rock.
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josephgdawson
Jun 27, 2008, 6:17 AM
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I think they do it because they are cheapskates and they are trying to save a couple of bucks. They are more concerned with getting their name associated with the route than putting up a quality route. Throw some machismo in there too.
I draw a distinction between a good route and a good climb. A climb can be good, but because it is runout it is a poor route. For a route to be good the climb has to be good as well at the bolting or pro.
I always find it amusing how so many 12s and 13s are totally sewn up. I guess they do that to keep the riff raff off such high quality routes?
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bigwhitej
Jun 27, 2008, 8:25 AM
Post #37 of 112
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Yo I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE.....You are 100% right.... It should not be all about mocho and ego as it appears on this forum by some people.....It seems that climbing has become to much of a mocho sport and not about having fun.....that should be the most important part!
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bigwhitej
Jun 27, 2008, 8:47 AM
Post #38 of 112
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In reply to: Climbing outside is scary. Sometimes, using a dictionary is scary. With that said it may be best to find a local gym and stay inside for training. It might be best that you stay inside and let others figure out the bolting issues. Yah Did you not read the whole thing? Its not that it is scary> It is that if you slip or make a mistake. Oh well you may say "What if this, what if that" Welll the fact is that it is ridiculous that some people think it is safer to Free Climb to the first bolt then put the bolt closer to the ground and place the other bolts close enough to each other that you will not hit the ground on a fall. Like some one else wrote why is it that all the really hard wrotes are all bolted to the tits so to speak. Why is it that you dont put really high bolts on a 5.13..... It seems that only up to 5.10 or so that has high first why not on the harder routes......Are you hard asses trying to scare off the people just trying to learn to climb and learning how to lead. It just seams that climbing has turned into an ego sport!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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spikeddem
Jun 27, 2008, 9:47 AM
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A FIRST bolt at 20' is the same as a SECOND bolt at 20' when the first bolt is 13' or less. If you feel any safer in the second scenario, you are kidding yourself!
Once the distance between your tie-in point and the most recent protection plus the length of your legs exceeds the distance to the ground, the belay is essentially off! (Forgiving slab climbers with a belayer set to RUN.)
This is why it is so annoying to have such low starting bolts in climbing gyms. In most gyms I have been to, the belay almost always goes "off" while the climber is clipping the second bolt. I'm not saying the belayer shouldn't do his or her best to catch the fall, but the climber should definitely understand that it is often a difficult fall to catch.
Edit: It's worth mentioning that sometimes, depending on the route, I'll just spot until the second bolt is clipped. With the nice rubbery landing, I can often do more by spotting than by holding on to the useless rope. Of course, I'd discuss such a thing with the climber to see what they'd prefer.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jun 27, 2008, 9:50 AM)
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sungam
Jun 27, 2008, 10:12 AM
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bigwhitej wrote: Yo I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE.....You are 100% right.... It should not be all about mocho and ego as it appears on this forum by some people.....It seems that climbing has become to much of a mocho sport and not about having fun.....that should be the most important part!
Climbing has always been (yes, at the start alpinism was masked with "scientific intent", but it still became) about escaping the safety net of modern life. Ooh, and having an adventure.
There is no excitement, or exhileration in modern day-to-day life. And especially no adventure. You always know what's coming. Everything is set, checked, and recheck. Nothing can really go wrong.
Some people escape the B.S. by driving fast, some by sleeping around or other crap, but others escape it by climbing.
Climbing IS dangerous, climbing IS risky, there is always that edge that it could all go to fuckshit and that would be that. That's why it's enjoyable, escaping the saftey net of day-to-day drivel.
The routes on which you shit yourself the most are often the ones you fondly remember for the longest.
If you want a simple show of strength or athletism without any consiquence for failure, I'm sure there is an indoor gym in your area. Either that or go jogging on a hill with the rest of the bunnies. The endorphine rush will be wild, yo.
-MagnuS
(p.s. spell check is just another piece of bs modern conformism!)
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jt512
Jun 27, 2008, 11:28 AM
Post #41 of 112
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josephgdawson wrote: I draw a distinction between a good route and a good climb.
Since those words mean the same thing, you might want to reconsider drawing that distinction.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 27, 2008, 11:28 AM)
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getout87
Jun 27, 2008, 11:37 AM
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I don't want to reiterate what everybody else has said, but I completely agree that the routesetter (first ascentionist) usually puts the line up with the intention of making it as not unsafe as possible. I word it like that because climbing isn't safe, it can just be made less dangerous. If you want a bolt 10 feet up, and a second bolt 7 feet after that, just don't pitch anywhere above the first bolt, or you're going to deck. Like I said before, either suck it up and grow a pair, or don't climb it.
Edited so as not offend silly sensibilities.
(This post was edited by getout87 on Jun 27, 2008, 12:25 PM)
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xtrmecat
Jun 27, 2008, 12:15 PM
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uh hum!! They are first ascentionists. Routesetters are from the gym.
Bob
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getout87
Jun 27, 2008, 12:17 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: uh hum!! They are first ascentionists. Routesetters are from the gym. Bob
Semantics aside, they "set" the bolts enabling you to climb the "route", so in my mind = routesetter. Sorry to offend your silly sensibilities.
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time2clmb
Jun 27, 2008, 12:20 PM
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WOW! I can't believe how many whiny little gym rats are on this thread. If you want a safe past time go play golf or stay in the gym. There are plenty of well protected "kiddie" routes, just stick to those and STFU. Some people like the mental control aspect of climbing too.
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rsmillbern
Jun 27, 2008, 1:00 PM
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Come climb at Stone Mountain in NC, all the bolts are perfectly spaced and inspire confidence in the leader ;-)
That aside, I have to agree with the fact that the route should 99% the time stay the way it was put up... Of course there can always be exceptions, but the person who put the route up should always be consulted before any changes... I've held off on jumping on several climbs within my ability (barely) because of the protection; coming back to them later is all the more rewarding.
(This post was edited by rsmillbern on Jun 27, 2008, 1:03 PM)
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getout87
Jun 27, 2008, 1:08 PM
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rsmillbern wrote: Come climb at Stone Mountain in NC, all the bolts are perfectly spaced and inspire confidence in the leader ;-) That aside, I have to agree with the fact that the route should 99% the time stay the way it was put up... Of course there can always be exceptions, but the person who put the route up should always be consulted before any changes... I've held off on jumping on several climbs within my ability (barely) because of the protection; coming back to them later is all the more rewarding.
Haha, stone mountain. Way to set somebody up for getting reaaaallllyyyyy freaked out.
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notapplicable
Jun 27, 2008, 1:16 PM
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bigwhitej wrote: It seems that climbing has become to much of a mocho sport and not about having fun.....that should be the most important part!
For some, climbing "above the bolt" is fun. How are you not getting this. Some like superfluously bolted routes, some do not, there is room for everyones style of climbing.
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rsmillbern
Jun 27, 2008, 2:01 PM
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notapplicable wrote: bigwhitej wrote: It seems that climbing has become to much of a mocho sport and not about having fun.....that should be the most important part! For some, climbing "above the bolt" is fun. How are you not getting this. Some like superfluously bolted routes, some do not, there is room for everyones style of climbing.
True!!! There is always HCR ifin's ya like lot's O close spaced bolts....
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rmueller
Jun 27, 2008, 3:02 PM
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Let me tell you about the greatest (or worst) stick clip I've ever seen. This thing was a pool skimmer handel that extended to at least 30 feet. The guy who had it could clip the anchors of some routes. Rig yourself one of these and never worry about a first bolt or decking again.
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