When Messner said this he was referring more to aid climbing but it can be applicable to free climbing as well. Basically he was saying that ambitions were not based on skill but on equipment and the length of time available and thus courage could be carried in ones pack. As climbers we play a trivial game and argue about trivial things. Among those is the issue of whether to use bolts or not. To be clear I am not against bolts they have their place on many climbs.

Climbing has several aspects. There's the physical aspect in which one has the physical strength to pull up on holds. The mental aspect in which is the ability to be at height where most of this sport takes place. Another aspect is the technical aspect, rope management, clipping, etc. Some of us focus on some more than others but we all have strengths in certain areas and weaknesses in other. I for example am technically and mentally strong while being fairly weak physically.

Questions of style are generally not easy to answer because of people's difference of opinion but I will make a simple comparison to see whether my logic is as simple to others as it is to me. Not that long ago climbers chipped holds on climbs to bring them down to their level, for a long while in places like France this was accepted. Eventually climbers like Royal Robbins and Jean-Claude Droyer encouraged people to free climb and climb cleanly to not only avoid damaging the rock but to also push climbing standards. These days almost all climbers would be against chipping holds and the reason most would give is that you should not bring a climb down to your physical level because someone might be able to do it in the future. Despite this almost unanimous agreement that one should not bring a climb down to their physical level by chipping, people think that bolting a climb down to their mental ability is perfectly acceptable. People bolt cracks and retro-bolt traditionally protected climbs, or add bolts to climbs that were originally led without the additional bolts.

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

It seems at times that a portion of the climbing population simply does not respect the mental component of the game as much as the physical.

the abortion of ethics illistrated by the thread author unatributed use of a noted alpinists prose for the title of this thread speaks quite ironically to the authors supposed zeal for prestine moral ground.

When Messner said this

in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate

in reference to peaks
id say the childs use is the predicate

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT

Let me be the first (but probably not last) one to chime in and say "Why do you use shoes and gear"? The purest form is free solo, nekkid. Round and round we go.....

I like to think the FA (or FA's) of a route are the artists.
The "songwriters" if you will, of that route (song). Other "artists" will sometimes redo a "song" and they may do it with stylistic difference. But the integrity of the original "song" needs to be retained. Don't change the "melody" or the "chord structure" and don't change the "lyrics".

I'm not saying that folks should be free to retrobolt or chip holds (well, I am kind of saying that, just not advocating it); I'm not really for that (though I do admit that I do lean toward the side of decreasing environmental impact and increasing safety, but I'm not stoutly in favor of those all of the time). I'm just saying that if we hold fast to keeping things the same then we'll eventually have used up any opportunity to change.

WARNING!! Slippery slope ^^here^^.

The over all sport should change and that can and will be reflected in the character of new route development but established climbs are off limits. One of two acception to that is if alterations to the means of protection are made by, or with permission from, the FAist. The only other time I feel its a good idea is if the FAist is not available and the local community is in overall agreement on the changes. Chipping should never happen.

Huh? Perhaps the word "mental" was a poor choice as intelligence has little to do with ones ability to manage doubt and fear and wasn't what I was talking about. Nor do I think that bolts and bold climbing or sport climbers and bold climbing are mutually exclusive.

I wasn't even so much talking about a respect, or lack there of, for a certain style of climbing but more for the people who enjoy climbs that are (for a lack of better phrasing) "heady" and pose as much of a psychological challenge as a physical one. I was talking to the "why not bolt it so everyone can enjoy the climb" crowd. The people who don't understand or respect the fact that for some people the route is much more fun and interesting with out the bolts.

I think there is enough rock for everyone to climb in the style they enjoy and one style should not be sacrificed for the sake of the other.

Some of the boldest climbers and most intelligent folks I know are sport climbers.

What more people do not respect is 150 runnouts on overhanging 5.12 choss. Or certainly not the sort of respect that will prompt them to jump on such a route.

DMT

I just don't see very many clear cut cases of bolted cracks. Occasionally I do and they are usually promptly removed.

Seriously, bolting cracks is more of an internet problem than on real rock.

I gotta disagree on this one, as I don't see it as a sportVStrad debate (version 2.0). Rather, I see it as applicable to lines that CAN go on gear. I am immediately reminded of at least five routes that give this legs:

1. Greenspit. 5.14 euro roof crack bolted, debolted, sent! Not much to discuss, this is the far end of the scale.

2. The Path. 5.14R climbing, probably takes smallish gear, not a climb for mortals. Chopped, re-sent. Getting more grey.

3. East Face of Monkey Face. Again another Sonnie Trotter route. Climbed on teeny tiny nuts by a guy with huge stoppers. Not chopped, Re-Sent.

4. Arcturus FFA. Piz and Anderson added bolts to a crack, which caused a backbreaking fall. Later sent free. Two arguments were used by the party - "It was not a very appealing or difficult aid pitch, so it won't change the difficulty of the aid route" and "We weren't able to get any gear to fit." Sounds a little strange to me.

5. Dihedral Wall. Bolts added to a seam by Skinner, used on the FFA by TC. Probably, Tommy could have done so with less bolts. It reduced the difficulty of the aid pitch (only 40 or so feet of a 3000 foot route, so no huge issue some might say), and is protectable on cruddy gear. Could have fixed a few pins, but is this better than a bolt? Not sure.

We can see things getting more and more blurry. Could the dihedral wall or Arcturus be sent without the bolts? Maybe, we will never know. Could the Path and Greenspit go without bolts? OF COURSE! So the point sits. Adding bolts to a crack, insipiant crack, or even (as one crazy british bastard showed us) the Bachar-Yerian can be avoided.

There is no right-wrong here. Whats important is to take the reality of the future generation with your drill. Will this climb be a mega-classic? Will this choss never see a Second ascent? Are others nipping at the bud to get on this? Case by case logic kills these discussions, so lets embrace it!

Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds.

WHINER

I don't get why you left out the bold face climbs that many people would have bolted. You know, like rhapsody, echo wall, and the walk of life.

My only comment is that the vast majority of those who claim to prefer 'heady' climbs only do so on a part time basis and rarely, in practice.

There are very notable exceptions of course.

DMT

You couldn't be more cryptic if you tried.

DMT

I'm not saying I'm that guy, because I'm not but there is a reason "R" and "X" rated routes see repeats. Some of them frequently.

I just don't think the "boltem so we can all have fun" crowd should be free to take that dish off the menu. When I feel like combining the mindset of a solo with the physical puzzle of protecting a lead, I want the kitchen to still be open...so to speak.

I'm a big believer in local ethics. I am totally against retrobolting and have no problem when retrobolt whiners here and elsewhere get their shit chopped.

I simply too exception to the notion that sport routes do not have a mental component.

DMT

Also want to ask.Am I the only one that sees more than just danger taken away by bolting? I mean,when I trad,I often find myself asking,around the corner here,or go to the top and then around.This can happen on the simplest ground on a slab,or some steep place in the Gunks on great holds.

No shit.What I am refering to is does this detract from the experience for you?

So I have to ask, if you wouldn't chip a climb to bring it down to your physical level then why would you bolt it to bring it down to your mental level? Now one could say that you could simply skip the bolts which is true, just as you could skip chipped holds. Nevertheless you still have an escape because someone brought the level of the climb down mentally or physically. If you don't feel ready for a climb physically or mentally you don't have to do it. So to reiterate the question why would you bring a climb down to your level mentally or physically?

No shit.What I am refering to is does this detract from the experience for you?

Greg,I was refering to lines of bolts.How a line of bolts defines a route and removes all the guesswork,and some of the adventure.I guess I am alone in that feeling.

No worries Greg,I often make leaps of faith in discussions in here,and hate those post overs.

Just because someone loves to climb does not mean that the same person should be able to jump on every climb and be safe and successful. Climbing skills -- technical, physical, and mental -- need to be built up before attempting certain routes. For me, that is part of the fun and evolution of climbing. And climbing is more than just a sport for me. I enjoy the adventurous aspect of it, as I'm sure most of you do. Bolting routes that can be protected with gear just so more climbers can send a route, in my very humble opinion, should be discouraged.

There are plenty of climbs out there for climbers of every skill level. Personally, I will do my best to stay on those routes that I feel I can handle. I would never do anything to modify a route that is otherwise out of my mental ability just so I can add it to my tick list. I would be disappointed if others did not show routes in my favorite places a similar respect, so to speak.

There are plenty of climbs out there for climbers of every skill level. Personally, I will do my best to stay on those routes that I feel I can handle. I would never do anything to modify a route that is otherwise out of my mental ability just so I can add it to my tick list. I would be disappointed if others did not show routes in my favorite places a similar respect, so to speak.