Commercial dog walkers DO NOT have right of way on sidewalks, NOT EVER.
Firstly, we walk one dog at a time. No one would know us as a "commercial" dog walking op.
Secondly - I was referring to instances where my dog and I were NOT IN MOTION.
If, in the travails of my canine companion, we come upon a sniff spot and he's into it, I move in closely to be an appropriate distance from the dog. This depends upon circumstances, but ALWAYS takes in mind the needs of others who may approach.
IF there really is not enough room for a passerby, I will remain alert and move my dog on before they will be delayed or obstructed.
If there IS enough room, my dog has the "right of stay." Who says so? I do.
If some distracted mother pushing a carriage and pulling an obnoxiously bratty 2-year old comes along, I will politely(yet insistently) let my dog know we'll yield the way. After all, the kid is too young to understand spacial relativity nor the distress caused to their parent by their behavior.
An adult, on the other hand(distracted by their cel phone in one ear and ipod in the other, and toting an obnoxious partner in arm who is blathering on about some thing, will NOT be allowed to push me aside. I will likely step in front of the dog to protect him or her, and brace myself for impact should it come to that. It has never happened, for I have a BIG mouth and will blast it off like a redneck at the shooting range with one of those SniperWannabe semi-automatic rifles. But make no mistake - I'm locked and loaded and willing to defend my dog beyond what most people would call a reasonable level. "Make My Day..."
You got the sandwiches on the mountain? They were just there waiting for you?
I TOL YEW ALREDDY, FOO: DEM SAMMICHES IZ MINE.
Which is weird because I wasn't asking whose they were. It's all good and fine to joke about things like safety and anchor building on this site, but if you're not going to take this sandwich conversation seriously, some innocent n00b reading along without knowing any better could... well, let's just say I don't want to take responsibility for that.
And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
Yes, it does lie. I am only imposing on the well over half of people in the RC.com echo chamber who had nothing better to do than bitch about dogs. I have never read of an accident caused by an errant dog. Mellow out.
I witnessed a belayer drop his partner because of his dog. Ironically, he was anticipating that his partner was going to fall, and momentarily looked down to make sure his dog wasn't in his way. The climber fell at the instant that the belayer looked down. This was a damned good crag dog and a damned good belayer, too.
So, now you've read about an accident caused not by an errant dog, but actually by a very well-behaved one. I look forward to reading how you will rationalize not changing your mind about dogs being acceptable at the crag.
Jay
I don't know why I should be rational with you, since you are a consistent asshole regardless. Even when you have something productive, you phrase it in a combative way that brings down the level of conversation on this site, and that is saying a lot. I thought I had been added to your Firefox post remover, and was pleased to think I wouldn't have to hear any of your belligerence. Oh well.
How about this: 1) one instance doesn't make a rule. If we stopped doing things because there was one bad result in a sample of thousands, we wouldn't climb. 2) your post does not explain what the dog had to do with it at all. Should we banz rocks because I might look down to make sure I don't trip? 3) you seem to operate on the principle that being a sociopath is great fun. My dog taking a dump on your rope would fit your interpersonal skill-set quite well I think.
The belayer looks at the dog. The belayer DROPS his partner. Can you explain how it's the DOG'S fault his person can't hold a fall?(That's about JT's post, not Reno's. I just hit the Reply button at thread's end).
I didn't say it was the dog's fault. Any distraction at the wrong instant can result in an accident. A dog is just one more distraction.
And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
Yes, it does lie. I am only imposing on the well over half of people in the RC.com echo chamber who had nothing better to do than bitch about dogs. I have never read of an accident caused by an errant dog. Mellow out.
and a damned good belayer, too.
So if a belayer can drop their climber and still hold the classification of a "damm good belayer", what constitutes a bad belayer? Short of killing your partner I can’t think of many things that would be worse...
I can assure you he's a better belayer than you are.
Jay
Obviously he is not since no one has hit the ground or sustained an injury on my eight year long watch... And yes I have caught falls well not looking and right as soon as someone started to talk to me. It’s not hard... The only excuse for dropping someone is incompetence.
How about complacency from overconfidence?
I would rank this belayer's skill at belaying in the top one-tenth of one percent of all climbers out there. It's easy to believe that you're incapable of making a belay error—until you do. The truth is that if this guy could make a mistake, any of us can.
And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
Yes, it does lie. I am only imposing on the well over half of people in the RC.com echo chamber who had nothing better to do than bitch about dogs. I have never read of an accident caused by an errant dog. Mellow out.
I witnessed a belayer drop his partner because of his dog. Ironically, he was anticipating that his partner was going to fall, and momentarily looked down to make sure his dog wasn't in his way. The climber fell at the instant that the belayer looked down. This was a damned good crag dog and a damned good belayer, too.
So, now you've read about an accident caused not by an errant dog, but actually by a very well-behaved one. I look forward to reading how you will rationalize not changing your mind about dogs being acceptable at the crag.
Jay
I don't know why I should be rational with you, since you are a consistent asshole regardless. Even when you have something productive, you phrase it in a combative way that brings down the level of conversation on this site, and that is saying a lot. I thought I had been added to your Firefox post remover, and was pleased to think I wouldn't have to hear any of your belligerence. Oh well.
How about this: 1) one instance doesn't make a rule.
I didn't say anything was a rule. You said you'd never read about a dog contributing to an accident; well, now you have.
In reply to:
If we stopped doing things because there was one bad result in a sample of thousands, we wouldn't climb.
Fucking brilliant logic, that. If we stopped doing things that that increased the risk of an accident by 1/1000 with no offsetting benefit, we'd reduce the accident rate by 1/1000. If we stopped doing 1000 such things we'd reduce the accident rate by ______ (the answer is left as an exercise).
In reply to:
2) your post does not explain what the dog had to do with it at all.
Yes, it clearly explains what the dog had to do with it, or more precisely, what the practice of bringing your dog to the crag had to do with it.
In reply to:
Should we banz rocks because I might look down to make sure I don't trip?
I don't know, Einstein. You tell me: when was the last time a rock moved into the path that you were planning to run if your partner fell.
In reply to:
3) you seem to operate on the principle that being a sociopath is great fun.
Wrong. I operate on the fact that making fun of idiots is fun.
In reply to:
My dog taking a dump on your rope would fit your interpersonal skill-set quite well I think.
That makes about as much sense as anything else you've written.
The belayer looks at the dog. The belayer DROPS his partner. Can you explain how it's the DOG'S fault his person can't hold a fall?(That's about JT's post, not Reno's. I just hit the Reply button at thread's end).
I didn't say it was the dog's fault. Any distraction at the wrong instant can result in an accident. A dog is just one more distraction.
Jay
The reason I thought you blamed the dog was because you wrote: I witnessed a belayer drop his partner because of his dog.
At any rate- I do agree that it's not a great idea to have a dog in the drop zone. While I hate to admit that, if it was my partner or my dog, I would protect my partner first, I really try to keep my dog out of such a situation. Whenever possible, his tether doesn't allow him to get on the rope pile or hang out under the route.
The belayer looks at the dog. The belayer DROPS his partner. Can you explain how it's the DOG'S fault his person can't hold a fall?(That's about JT's post, not Reno's. I just hit the Reply button at thread's end).
I didn't say it was the dog's fault. Any distraction at the wrong instant can result in an accident. A dog is just one more distraction.
Jay
The reason I thought you blamed the dog was because you wrote: I witnessed a belayer drop his partner because of his dog.
I love dogs myself, however if dogs are allowed at the crags then eventually there will be issues as a result.
Just because you think your dog is "trained" there is always the possibility for him to do harm or be part of it. Just because you think " my dog would never do that " doesnt make it so. I understand some of yall have dogs that have been trained skillfully, however even those have the potential to cause harm. (be it a very very low chance)
A climbing crag is self explanatory, an area for the purpose of climbing. If you want to take your dog out take him to a dog park ( what a concept ).
To those of you who think " I just couldnt leave him home he has so much fun out there", Its a dog , he may be bummed ( only that you left without him ) but he's not bummed cause you went to the crag without him. ( unless he smelled it on you when you got back or associates your gear with the crag). Id be willing to bet your dog would have just as much fun at a dog park if not more than the crag.
If you think I am not familiar with dogs, you are mistaken. I have handled them all of my life ( mostly larger breeds ), so dont think I dont like dogs. Just the term "Mans best friend" is very accurate and it is in this light that I see every dog. They smell, hear, taste, and sense what we cannot. They protect us while we sleep and are forever loyal to their master. They warn us of danger. I could rave on and on about how much I love dogs but I only have 2 hours left here at work (not enough).
Unless your dog can give a good lead belay, leave him at home.
(This post was edited by mecalekahi-mekahidyho on Feb 21, 2009, 3:29 AM)
And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
Yes, it does lie. I am only imposing on the well over half of people in the RC.com echo chamber who had nothing better to do than bitch about dogs. I have never read of an accident caused by an errant dog. Mellow out.
and a damned good belayer, too.
So if a belayer can drop their climber and still hold the classification of a "damm good belayer", what constitutes a bad belayer? Short of killing your partner I can’t think of many things that would be worse...
I can assure you he's a better belayer than you are.
Jay
Obviously he is not since no one has hit the ground or sustained an injury on my eight year long watch... And yes I have caught falls well not looking and right as soon as someone started to talk to me. It’s not hard... The only excuse for dropping someone is incompetence.
How about complacency from overconfidence?
I would rank this belayer's skill at belaying in the top one-tenth of one percent of all climbers out there. It's easy to believe that you're incapable of making a belay error—until you do. The truth is that if this guy could make a mistake, any of us can.
Jay
you need to get your head out of your a$$. you are using this "it could happen to anyone" bullsh!t to justify your friends potentially lethal mistake because he is your friend. if it was ANYONE else you would be cursing the gods calling them a disgrace to the climbing community. i have been climbing 19 years and can redpoint 14- and i climb 280 days out of the year. i have seen six people dropped. in ALL cases it was due to an idiotic belayer that did not know what the hell s/he was doing. as others have said, there is no damm reason to drop a climber. If it makes you sleep better, make up some bullsh!t excuse to justify but in the end the truth is obvious…
do us ALL a favor and introduce your boyfriend to the grigri. it does wonders for those that cannot hold onto ropes. it would have made that climber a very happy man...
you need to get your head out of your a$$. you are using this "it could happen to anyone" bullsh!t to justify your friends potentially lethal mistake because he is your friend.
Mistake... never met a human that didn't make one.
And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
Yes, it does lie. I am only imposing on the well over half of people in the RC.com echo chamber who had nothing better to do than bitch about dogs. I have never read of an accident caused by an errant dog. Mellow out.
and a damned good belayer, too.
So if a belayer can drop their climber and still hold the classification of a "damm good belayer", what constitutes a bad belayer? Short of killing your partner I can’t think of many things that would be worse...
I can assure you he's a better belayer than you are.
Jay
Obviously he is not since no one has hit the ground or sustained an injury on my eight year long watch... And yes I have caught falls well not looking and right as soon as someone started to talk to me. It’s not hard... The only excuse for dropping someone is incompetence.
How about complacency from overconfidence?
I would rank this belayer's skill at belaying in the top one-tenth of one percent of all climbers out there. It's easy to believe that you're incapable of making a belay error—until you do. The truth is that if this guy could make a mistake, any of us can.
Jay
you need to get your head out of your a$$. you are using this "it could happen to anyone" bullsh!t to justify your friends potentially lethal mistake because he is your friend. if it was ANYONE else you would be cursing the gods calling them a disgrace to the climbing community. i have been climbing 19 years and can redpoint 14- and i climb 280 days out of the year. i have seen six people dropped. in ALL cases it was due to an idiotic belayer that did not know what the hell s/he was doing. as others have said, there is no damm reason to drop a climber. If it makes you sleep better, make up some bullsh!t excuse to justify but in the end the truth is obvious…
do us ALL a favor and introduce your boyfriend to the grigri. it does wonders for those that cannot hold onto ropes. it would have made that climber a very happy man...
You've been climbing 10 years less than than my friend has, and he was using a grigri, and he was holding the brake side of the rope. That's supposed to be fail-safe, eh? That's what he thought. That's what I thought. That's what everybody who witnessed the accident thought (all of whom had at least ten years climbing experience). Guess what? Every one of us was wrong.
I don't know if you actually are a an accomplished climber as well as a mediocre troll, or just a mediocre troll, but this particular belayer has a borderline world-class climbing resumé himself.
His partner was lucky to literally be able to walk away from this incident. It was a wake-up call to all of us who witnessed the accident. Everyone thinks he is god's gift to belaying. The fact is that each of us can make a mistake. The dangerous belayers are the ones who think they can't. The best defense against making a mistake is to realize that you can make one.
I'm not getting where the drop was, if the belayer was holding the rope.
Are you saying the ground fall potential was so tight at the time that he needed to be yarding IN to reduce the amount of rope out? And because his attention was diverted at the climber's time of detachment that he missed that moment in time when that could have been accomplished?
Or what?
Because otherwise, from what you write, it sounds like it would be a groundfall regardless. Holding the brake/using a grigri can't help when the leader's past a certain point of pro(unless the belayer is able to reduce the rope out, as mentioned above).
I'm not getting where the drop was, if the belayer was holding the rope.
None of us do, completely. We always thought that if you held the brake side of the rope then a grigri would lock. But apparently this is not the case; there are a set of circumstances under which the grigri won't lock unless the brake end of the rope is held with a tight grip. In this case, the rope was 9.4 and the leader partially lowered himself onto the rope. Apparently, the resulting impact force was insufficient for the grigri to lock up even partially, and the skinny rope ran through the belayer's hand for an instant. The belayer tightened his grip soon enough to prevent the leader from hitting the ground full-force, but he did still suffer a mild ankle sprain.
Here's an easy prediction: a self-righteous gumby will presently post that the belayer was incompetent because he wasn't holding the rope tightly enough. Well, if that is true then practically every grigri user out there is incompetent, because I don't know anyone—outside of the four people who witnessed this accident—who holds the brake rope that tightly when using a grigri, except to lock off.
Here's another easy prediction: some n00b will blame this accident on the fact that the rope was below Petzl's limit of 9.7 (not 10) mm. However, ropes < 9.7 mm are used routinely with grigris in sport climbing all over the world. Undoubtedly, thousands upon thousands of falls have been safely caught using grigris with ropes that are thinner than spec. Furthermore, the converse, that using a rope that is at least 9.7 mm will prevent this type of accident, is likely false. I have used 10.2 mm ropes, which, when new, would creep through the grigri when the climber hung on the rope, if I wasn't holding the brake end.
So here's the story, in case anybody out there is actually interested in learning something, instead of worrying about exonerating the dog. A thin or slick rope, a low-impact fall, and possibly other circumstances can prevent the grigri from locking, even when the brake side of the rope is held with a normal, light grip. If you need to ensure that no slippage of the rope would occur if the climber were to fall (such as close to the ground) then you should maintain a tight grip on the rope with the brake hand. That will ensure (hopefully) that the cam engages immediately.
Jay - I have heard that grigri's don't necessarily cam/lock up when the pressure applied is not a quick and forceful one(as in a fall). That it was a thinnish rope just adds to that possibility.
So far as I understood, this was common knowledge(if you are an internet climbing forum loser such as myself, at any rate).
It surprises me that you would not have known this(not saying you TOO are an internet climbing forum loser.....hahaha).
So it was the CLIMBER'S fault(for weighting the rope gradually in stead of just popping off) - not the dog's!
Jay - I have heard that grigri's don't necessarily cam/lock up when the pressure applied is not a quick and forceful one(as in a fall).
Yes. That is well known, which is why you have to keep your brake hand on the rope. What is not well-known is that under just the right circumstances, a normal grip on the rope will not be sufficient to cause the cam to lock.
Jay - I have heard that grigri's don't necessarily cam/lock up when the pressure applied is not a quick and forceful one(as in a fall).
Yes. That is well known, which is why you have to keep your brake hand on the rope. What is not well-known is that under just the right circumstances, a normal grip on the rope will not be sufficient to cause the cam to lock.
Jay
And once again, the impossible happens.
As fun as it is to joke about how RC.com is full of assholes and a total nOObfest, every once and awhile this place serves a real purpose and I learn something. I don't even own a GriGri and I'm glad I read this thread.
69 /
36%
