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herbertpowell
Apr 18, 2009, 3:19 PM
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I'm finally gearing up to try solo aiding. After reading just about everything I can on here about solo aid, and seeing the threads about the biner failing on the grigri, I started wondering about the powerpoints of anchors.
There is a potential to cross-load the powerpoint biner during a fall, which could generate enough force to break it. Is anyone using steel biners for the powerpoint or do you double up Al biners? Other solutions?
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xtrmecat
Apr 18, 2009, 4:50 PM
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You can if you wish. I use two lockers. Opposite and opposed. Simple. redundant, and solid, even if one comes unscrewed(locked).
Bob
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mr8615
Apr 18, 2009, 5:32 PM
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^^^ That's what I do too. I do use a steel biner on my grigri though.
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scottydo
Apr 21, 2009, 8:19 AM
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If you're solo aiding then you should probably be setting your anchor for an upward pull (with a directional piece). If you do that properly then you shouldn't have to worry about your anchor biners crossloading.
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 12:03 PM
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scottydo wrote: If you're solo aiding then you should probably be setting your anchor for an upward pull (with a directional piece). If you do that properly then you shouldn't have to worry about your anchor biners crossloading.
how do you figure? gravity must work diferently for you than for me.....even if you have the ANCHOR tensioned with a directional piece so that the soft-goods aspect won't shift in the event of a fall, and even with keeping up with your rebelays, there will constantly be changes in the amount of tension in the lead line. This will range from relatively tight to slack. When things are tight you are good, but during the times of slack the anchor biner attaching the lead rope WILL succumb to gravity. No way around that- no matter how well you set your directional, etc....because the only thing keeping the anchor biner oriented for the upward pull direction is the lead line itself
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moose_droppings
Apr 21, 2009, 2:09 PM
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altelis wrote: scottydo wrote: If you're solo aiding then you should probably be setting your anchor for an upward pull (with a directional piece). If you do that properly then you shouldn't have to worry about your anchor biners crossloading. how do you figure? gravity must work diferently for you than for me.....even if you have the ANCHOR tensioned with a directional piece so that the soft-goods aspect won't shift in the event of a fall, and even with keeping up with your rebelays, there will constantly be changes in the amount of tension in the lead line. This will range from relatively tight to slack. When things are tight you are good, but during the times of slack the anchor biner attaching the lead rope WILL succumb to gravity. No way around that- no matter how well you set your directional, etc....because the only thing keeping the anchor biner oriented for the upward pull direction is the lead line itself
My tie in to the anchor is with an 8 on a bight to a biner that is taught between a multidirectional anchor. There is no room for slack on that biner, there is on occasion slack on the lead line but this does not effect the biner held tight between the opposed pieces in my anchor, so there is no worry about crossloading.
To the OP, yes my biner at the anchor is steel. When I'm lead soloing or aid soloing I'm usually miles from anyone and prefer the extra bit of safety. You can use two, but I prefer the one of steel.
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 2:32 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: altelis wrote: scottydo wrote: If you're solo aiding then you should probably be setting your anchor for an upward pull (with a directional piece). If you do that properly then you shouldn't have to worry about your anchor biners crossloading. how do you figure? gravity must work diferently for you than for me.....even if you have the ANCHOR tensioned with a directional piece so that the soft-goods aspect won't shift in the event of a fall, and even with keeping up with your rebelays, there will constantly be changes in the amount of tension in the lead line. This will range from relatively tight to slack. When things are tight you are good, but during the times of slack the anchor biner attaching the lead rope WILL succumb to gravity. No way around that- no matter how well you set your directional, etc....because the only thing keeping the anchor biner oriented for the upward pull direction is the lead line itself My tie in to the anchor is with an 8 on a bight to a biner that is taught between a multidirectional anchor. There is no room for slack on that biner, there is on occasion slack on the lead line but this does not effect the biner held tight between the opposed pieces in my anchor, so there is no worry about crossloading. To the OP, yes my biner at the anchor is steel. When I'm lead soloing or aid soloing I'm usually miles from anyone and prefer the extra bit of safety. You can use two, but I prefer the one of steel.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just having a really hard time figuring out what your anchor looks like.
If its like this: [inline attachment_anchor1.gif]
Then doesn't this mean when you take a lead fall the directional would take all the force, right? 'Cause thats the only piece keeping the biner, and therefore the lead line, from moving upward...(biner is green, lead line is blue....)
How do you prevent this? When I aid-solo I create a multi-directional anchor and make sure to use rebelays....
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pmyche
Apr 21, 2009, 3:02 PM
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 3:31 PM
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I have to admit to have as of yet not done any aid-soloing over 2 pitches, and certainly not with a haul bag.
I find that the rope still creeps through my grigri even though its NOT modified. Maybe its just my particular rope (though it is a 10.2....)
I used a suggestion from here where I rebelay with a VERY skinny ~2 mil cord that will certainly brake in the event of a fall, theoretically maintaining the full dynamic properties of ALL the rope out...and I also don't rebelay so that the rope is super tight to the anchor. there is still definitely a bit of slack left in the rope below the rebelay...
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boymeetsrock
Apr 21, 2009, 3:33 PM
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pmyche,
The anchor in your picture is set up for a downward pull. Are you assuming that the haul bag is going to make the catch in the event of a leader fall?
Not to be inflammatory, but this seems crazy to me. Is this accepted practice? Am I missing a key feature to the anchor?
Very curious as I am moving into the solo-aid arena slowly but surely.
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 3:39 PM
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boymeetsrock wrote: pmyche, The anchor in your picture is set up for a downward pull. Are you assuming that the haul bag is going to make the catch in the event of a leader fall? Not to be inflammatory, but this seems crazy to me. Is this accepted practice? Am I missing a key feature to the anchor? Very curious as I am moving into the solo-aid arena slowly but surely.
The idea is that the pieces in the anchor are multi-directional, so that they can take an upward pull. However the haul-bags essentially work as a counterweight- the give a "soft catch", however the anchor could still be pulled up and the pieces in the anchor would/could hold a pull from that direction. Others on here would have to comment on actual things happening in actual practice, as this knowledge (so far) is theoretical for me....
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pmyche
Apr 21, 2009, 3:51 PM
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patmay81
Apr 21, 2009, 4:21 PM
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2 aluminum oval lockers for the power point, a mod D steel locker for my gri gri. I could use three lockers for the power point and it would still be lighter than another steel locker. Since I have to haul all the gear myself I like to pack as light as possible for solo trips.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 21, 2009, 4:58 PM
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pmyche wrote: BMR, The anchor is set for any pull (multi-directional). The haul bag only softens the catch. Yes, there is a foot or two of play there which allows the bag to do its job. (Thanks again, altelis.)
Thanks pmyche and altelis for explaining.
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moose_droppings
Apr 21, 2009, 5:04 PM
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altelis wrote: moose_droppings wrote: altelis wrote: scottydo wrote: If you're solo aiding then you should probably be setting your anchor for an upward pull (with a directional piece). If you do that properly then you shouldn't have to worry about your anchor biners crossloading. how do you figure? gravity must work diferently for you than for me.....even if you have the ANCHOR tensioned with a directional piece so that the soft-goods aspect won't shift in the event of a fall, and even with keeping up with your rebelays, there will constantly be changes in the amount of tension in the lead line. This will range from relatively tight to slack. When things are tight you are good, but during the times of slack the anchor biner attaching the lead rope WILL succumb to gravity. No way around that- no matter how well you set your directional, etc....because the only thing keeping the anchor biner oriented for the upward pull direction is the lead line itself My tie in to the anchor is with an 8 on a bight to a biner that is taught between a multidirectional anchor. There is no room for slack on that biner, there is on occasion slack on the lead line but this does not effect the biner held tight between the opposed pieces in my anchor, so there is no worry about crossloading. To the OP, yes my biner at the anchor is steel. When I'm lead soloing or aid soloing I'm usually miles from anyone and prefer the extra bit of safety. You can use two, but I prefer the one of steel. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just having a really hard time figuring out what your anchor looks like. If its like this: Then doesn't this mean when you take a lead fall the directional would take all the force, right? 'Cause thats the only piece keeping the biner, and therefore the lead line, from moving upward...(biner is green, lead line is blue....) How do you prevent this? When I aid-solo I create a multi-directional anchor and make sure to use rebelays....
To clarify first, I've never done enough pitches to warrant a haul bag so I don't utilize a counter weight. All my aiding is done here in the Back Hills since I started aiding.
My anchor on the fist pitch is either a big tree with opposition piece to hold it in place, or three pieces rig for an upward pull with an opposition. All the force of the fall is for an upward pull. My next anchor mid route is three pieces for an upward pull and three pieces for a downward pull in opposition to each other. This anchor needs to be solid for a rap down cleaning and jug/top rope back up. It also needs to be able to hold a fall from above on the next pitch. Both anchors are pulling against each other, I don't want the power point to move up or down allowing one side or the other to become loose enough to have pieces come out from either side. I'll take a pic of my next mid route anchor next time and post it.
Thiis is kinda nice having internet access here at the doc's office to kill the wait, its even high speed. Think I'll go check out some of the TR's with all the pics in them.
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 5:09 PM
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Ahh soo, grahshoppa.
So when you said "directional piece" what you REALLY meant is directional ANCHOR! 
That makes WAY more sense! I too have yet to use haulbags, but I have always been able to set multi-directional pieces for my mid-route anchors, meaning they can take a down-ward and upward pull....
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pmyche
Apr 21, 2009, 6:25 PM
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patmay81
Apr 21, 2009, 7:10 PM
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no, at the end of the pitch
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altelis
Apr 21, 2009, 8:28 PM
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pmyche wrote: When you guys write mid-route do you mean mid-pitch? Aside from keeping the rope from sliding back through a belay device, what are the reasons to re-belay?
I can only speak for myself (though I do feel like I'm walking into a trap, given my level of experience versus your, pmyche....)
By "mid-route anchor" I was referring to the end of each pitch. Namely, the last anchor of the climb doesn't require taking a lead fall....and the first anchor doesn't require taking an "down-ward" load like all the rest of the anchors do....right?
And so far, the only reason i have used a rebelay has been to prevent rope slippage through my *unmodified* grigri- and like I said I use a SUPER skinny ~2 mil line for my rebelay so that it would/will snap in the event of a fall.....kinda like the rubber-band solution....
What are you getting at, if you don't mind me just coming out and ask?
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pmyche
Apr 21, 2009, 8:48 PM
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ptlong
Apr 21, 2009, 10:03 PM
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I think that's it, Mike. It's because there's no reason to rebelay when using a Solo Aid unless you want to get some of the rope weight off of your harness.
Nice information in this thread, by the way. Thanks!
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scottydo
Apr 22, 2009, 6:21 AM
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altelis wrote: moose_droppings wrote: altelis wrote: scottydo wrote: If you're solo aiding then you should probably be setting your anchor for an upward pull (with a directional piece). If you do that properly then you shouldn't have to worry about your anchor biners crossloading. how do you figure? gravity must work diferently for you than for me.....even if you have the ANCHOR tensioned with a directional piece so that the soft-goods aspect won't shift in the event of a fall, and even with keeping up with your rebelays, there will constantly be changes in the amount of tension in the lead line. This will range from relatively tight to slack. When things are tight you are good, but during the times of slack the anchor biner attaching the lead rope WILL succumb to gravity. No way around that- no matter how well you set your directional, etc....because the only thing keeping the anchor biner oriented for the upward pull direction is the lead line itself My tie in to the anchor is with an 8 on a bight to a biner that is taught between a multidirectional anchor. There is no room for slack on that biner, there is on occasion slack on the lead line but this does not effect the biner held tight between the opposed pieces in my anchor, so there is no worry about crossloading. To the OP, yes my biner at the anchor is steel. When I'm lead soloing or aid soloing I'm usually miles from anyone and prefer the extra bit of safety. You can use two, but I prefer the one of steel. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just having a really hard time figuring out what your anchor looks like. If its like this: Then doesn't this mean when you take a lead fall the directional would take all the force, right? 'Cause thats the only piece keeping the biner, and therefore the lead line, from moving upward...(biner is green, lead line is blue....) How do you prevent this? When I aid-solo I create a multi-directional anchor and make sure to use rebelays....
You're right that the carabiner in the power point of my anchor is only being held up by the tension in the lead line. One way to keep that biner oriented correctly is with a long prussik attached from a piece that you place up the route to the lead line. (keep it long so that if you do fall and the rope is tensioned the prussik doesn't get sucked through the biner with the lead rope) This will still let the anchor take the force of a fall but when you are climbing it will keep that section of the rope just tight enough to keep your power point biner oriented up.
PTPP wrote some stuff about this. He suggested it more for keeping your rope from moving/rubbing over edges that could cut it as well as what I mentioned.
(This post was edited by scottydo on Apr 22, 2009, 6:44 AM)
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patmay81
Apr 23, 2009, 5:04 PM
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boymeetsrock wrote: mr8615 wrote: snip I do use a steel biner on my grigri though.I am about to buy a silent partner. I am wondering if 1 steal 'biner (to attach the SP to my harness) is essentially equal to 2 regular 'biners, in terms of redundancy? Is it safe to think of a steal 'biner in the same way we view the rope; redundant in and of itself?
The reason I use a steel w/ my grigri is to prevent any cross loading issues in which an aluminum biner would only hold around 10 kn, where as my steel holds 24+ cross loaded.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 23, 2009, 5:47 PM
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patmay81 wrote: boymeetsrock wrote: mr8615 wrote: snip I do use a steel biner on my grigri though.I am about to buy a silent partner. I am wondering if 1 steal 'biner (to attach the SP to my harness) is essentially equal to 2 regular 'biners, in terms of redundancy? Is it safe to think of a steal 'biner in the same way we view the rope; redundant in and of itself? in theory 2 aluminum biners are better than one steel, the point being that friction against rock, rope and body can cause the lockers to unlock and potentially (1 in one thousand, hundred thousand, million odds???) come unclipped. The strength is not so much an issue as you can get aluminum biners rated up to 28 kn axial strength. The reason I use a steel w/ my grigri is to prevent any cross loading issues in which an aluminum biner would only hold around 10 kn, where as my steel holds 24+ cross loaded.
This was exactly what I was thinking. How to go about cramming to 'biners and the rope through my tie in points and still avoid cross loading, or loading the 'biner close to the gate as apposed to along the spine.
But you only use ONE steel 'biner correct?
I think I'm OK with using the one steel 'binder as an attachment to my harness. still debating a bit though.
Thanks patmay81.
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ptlong
Apr 23, 2009, 6:01 PM
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With a grigri there is no room for two carabiners.
Whether or not one steel carabiner is "redundant in and of itself" is just semantics. A single steel carabiner is strong enough provided the gate isn't somehow opened up. Ever had a locker open up at your waist? I have. You rope solo, you can figure the odds for yourself.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 23, 2009, 6:45 PM
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ptlong, pmyche,
Thank you both. Good points which I am considering.
I don't disagree at all regarding "redundancy".
I'll try to find jhealy's set up and take a look too.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 23, 2009, 8:04 PM
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I found it. Any reason to be wary of this with a SP? Seams like a reasonable set up.
I am remaining open to all opinions and anecdotes until I can make a final decision. (maybe opinions and anecdotes are the wrongs words...)
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cclarke
Apr 23, 2009, 8:56 PM
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Two potential issues with setting up the SP like the cinch in the picture.
First, the SP instructions (which are readily available on line and you really should read them carefully) state that you should not attach SP to the belay loop. The reason, I think, is that you don't want the SP to hit you in the face when you fall. When it's on the belay loop plus a biner, it's pretty long. Instead, clip the biners directly through the waist band and leg loops of your harness.
Second, using two lockers as SP instructions indicate will keep the lockers oriented correctly because it is much harder for two of them to move around compared to a single locker.
Maybe you can squeeze in the sling as well as two lockers and that might work but I haven't tried that. Also, I would think you could use one steel biner plus a regular aluminum locker for added security.
Finally, I think the SP instructions have an error in the picture of the two lockers in use. The hole where the lockers clip on the SP is not big enough to allow the screw sleeve to pass so the screw sleeve should not be above the SP as shown. When you fall, the SP will pull upwards and if the screw sleeves are in the way it could create bad leverage on the biner gate and the part of the SP where the biners are clipped. If the SP is over the screw sleeve or the screw sleeve is positioned in the rear, the SP can freely rise in a fall and you have no problems.
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boymeetsrock
Apr 24, 2009, 2:03 AM
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More good points cclarke.
I did read the manual (well, I skimmed it; I don't have the SP yet...) and noticed the points you are referring to. Thank you for illustrating them more.
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altelis
Apr 24, 2009, 3:13 AM
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cclarke wrote: Two potential issues with setting up the SP like the cinch in the picture....
Just to clarify- I'm pretty sure that the device in the picture is an eddy not a cinch....
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pindrvr75
Apr 24, 2009, 4:08 AM
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herbertpowell wrote: There is a potential to cross-load the powerpoint biner during a fall, which could generate enough force to break it. Is anyone using steel biners for the powerpoint or do you double up Al biners? Other solutions?
I use two locking ovals, opposite and opposed. If you have to use a cordelette anchor, make sure that the knot is as close as possible to the biners so that they stay oriented along the spine. Just my 2c
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herbertpowell
Apr 24, 2009, 11:03 PM
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Good discussion. I think the double Al biners are a better solution now, especially after the weight comment. I checked the weight on simple steel lockers, and they are heavy, easily 3 times the weight of heavy Al lockers.
As for the cordelettes, I got into the habit for alpine, where it is advantageous to have some 7mm cord you can chop up for rap anchors / v-threads, etc. Is there a reason why these are not preferred in aid climbing?
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le_bruce
Apr 25, 2009, 12:33 AM
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Hey folks, just three ideas to throw into the mix:
If you're aim is to aid more than free, and crossloading is a possibility that spooks you, you might look into the Solo Aid that pmyche mentions. No 'biner at the harness, instead you tie in with thick, uncrossloadable cord. Crank down a burly double fisherman at the bottom of the climb, don't untie until days later when you top out = safe. The Solo Aid is not the ticket if free climbing is your goal.
Always worth mentioning in any thread like this one: tie backup knots as if your life depends on it. The backup knot can proxy for a redundant carabiner on your Grigri, in that it's the only thing that's going to catch you if your biner blows.
Nothing can proxy for keeping your awareness in the on position up there, b/c you don't have a partner to check your systems. Stay sharp - fear helps!
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yetanotherdave
Apr 25, 2009, 4:08 PM
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I use 2 big pear biners (petzl williams) on my SP, and that works well. I don't think using 1 biner woould keep the plates lined up properly.
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scottydo
Apr 26, 2009, 2:53 PM
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some great feedback on this thread. especially on the SP.
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moose_droppings
Apr 26, 2009, 4:43 PM
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herbertpowell wrote: Good discussion. I think the double Al biners are a better solution now, especially after the weight comment. I checked the weight on simple steel lockers, and they are heavy, easily 3 times the weight of heavy Al lockers.
I've never seen the connection of aid climbing and going light. But then my routes are only 3 or 4 pitch routes.
I do hump my gear a couple miles to some of my routes, but the extra grams haven't been a concern there yet either.
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lambone
Apr 26, 2009, 7:11 PM
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Here is what I use:
Un Modified Gri-Gri
Knong steel biner with the double auto-lock thing. rated to 58kn. I is a real pain in the ass to open.
two regular biners on the powerpoint, one is locker.
I think having a steel biner on the powerpoint is excessive.
You would need two, one for top anchor nd one for bottom anchor, and the weight of three steel lockers is about 7 regular lockers.
bottom line, don't factor2 on the anchor.
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wallrat
May 13, 2009, 6:28 AM
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A buddy of mine had a cross load situation on a solo, and it broke his tie in biner. Lucky for him he had just tied in a backup knot. I don't recall if he was using a GriGri or not. Point is be redundant. I wouldn't trust only one of anything but the rope. Even then I clip my haul into a 1" runner looped into the back of my harness, then I 'might' just take a full rope factor 2 fall if the lead line broke. Silly, I know, but it's a small comfort to that voice in my head saying I'm gonna die. I have always just tied in with double biners and figure eight knots, throwing out 25-30 feet at a time, and tying in short if I get gripped. With practice you can do them one handed, and it's pretty fast.
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