Incredibly jerky, especially on fuzzy ropes. Locks up just fine when you want it too, but also locks up pretty well when you don't want it to. Compared with pretty much everything else out there that I've used (and I've used a lot of different devices), it it awful.

Hell, I once used a rappel ring as a sticht plate once and had better results. Note: don't do that. It's an incredibly bad idea. It was on TR and I had a backup belay.

I love my pyramid.
The worst belay device is the Trango Jaws. It locks up like nobodies business.

Wild Country VC Pro. Worst ever modern belay device. I bought while waiting for the reverso 3 to be available (and I'm a gear whore). I thought it would work well since it looked like the BD ATC XP and it was cheaper. I returned it to the store the next day.

Why?
Looks like just another tuber.
cant be too much wrong with that.
or can it?

qwert

...and let me also point out the fact the the belay device was only 4 hours old!!!!

I knew a guy that had a pyramid when I was fairly new. He didn't seem to have any problems. He loved how thick it was and that it apparently didn't get sharp edges as fast as other belay devices. He was also really pumped on the "cooling ridges". Now that i'm more experienced I still don't know if he knew wtf he was talking about. I've never had any complaints with a belay device being too hot but I suppose if you have wimpy hands the pyramid would cool down faster than other devices.

Weird. I love my Trango Jaws, had it for eight years now. Like the fact that I can use it in high friction side or low friction. Gives smooth rappels and catches falls effortlessly, large ropes or small.

interestingly, while the BD ATC Sport is a very low seller in the US, its one of the best sellers in Europe- and its not the only single slot device out there- the Edelrid Jewel is another one (which i actually really like for cragging, after playing with one for a weekend after the OR show!)- neither sell well in the US, but in Europe they're fairly common because folks rarely rappel over there.

interestingly, while the BD ATC Sport is a very low seller in the US, its one of the best sellers in Europe- and its not the only single slot device out there- the Edelrid Jewel is another one (which i actually really like for cragging, after playing with one for a weekend after the OR show!)- neither sell well in the US, but in Europe they're fairly common because folks rarely rappel over there.

FTW!

Haha. My mate was given a Sport and still doesnt use it

Well if given by someone who doesn't climb I'd appreciate the gesture i guess...

Dude, how much time have you spent in Europe? I have never seen either of those devices being used by anyone...

Dude, how much time have you spent in Europe? I have never seen either of those devices being used by anyone...

Well he won it through a boulder competition. He then trys to belay me on his eight in a stich plate config...... I usually end up giving him by ATCX

what about the Mammut Smart? Doesn't look that smart to me, looks complicated. Lots of people use them in Swiss climbing gyms. Once again, only one slot.

I truly doubt that the device was manufactured only 4 hours prior to your using it.

what about the Mammut Smart? Doesn't look that smart to me, looks complicated. Lots of people use them in Swiss climbing gyms. Once again, only one slot.

Mark

So, what do you guys think of the Kong Gi-Gi? I'm in the market for a new belay/rappel plate. I'd be interested in hearing from any one that has used one...

They give away belay devices as prizes in bouldering comps? Funny!

what about the Mammut Smart? Doesn't look that smart to me, looks complicated. Lots of people use them in Swiss climbing gyms. Once again, only one slot.

Mark

those are actually really useful when you want a backup, or when you are climbing with one single and twins.

They give away belay devices as prizes in bouldering comps? Funny!

i've seen alot of people around france with the ATC sport :\

didn't want to fork out the extra 2-3eu for the guide or reverso 3 i guess

And they say the dutch are cheap... In all fairness I haven't been climbing in France for a while, will make up by going to Bleau in october (I just love saying that I'm so stoked to finally go there) probably not a lot of atc sports there.

those are actually really useful when you want a backup, or when you are climbing with one single and twins.

I truly doubt that the device was manufactured only 4 hours prior to your using it.

Dude, how much time have you spent in Europe? I have never seen either of those devices being used by anyone...

none, really. just going off Edelrid and BD's sales of the devices over there- both of which are fairly strong.

the jewel is SS, and it is nice- i have to say it might be my new favorite crag belay device!

edited because i apparently cannot figure out how to use the quote function today.

i've been living in paris for over a year now, so when you come by drop a line and i'll give you some easy tips to find your way around all the footpaths that connect the fields

the edelrid jewel? Maybe you are confusing it with the zap-o-mat or edelrid told you bullshit (or i am blind) but that thing is not available anywhere. Neither at edelrids homepage, nor at the big shops. Google only finds it mentioned in this thread.

qwert

The faders sum. Our local gym uses em and while no belay device will be bad enough to prefer a hip belay, this one comes the closest. The response is terrible and the locking mechanism can be disabled if the device gets caught up in between you and the wall or your harness or whatever. Never take my eye off this one...

I am constantly shocked at what some climbing manufacturers consider "good ideas." These are just baffling.

1. ATC-Sport - Black Diamond
[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/gear/products/4/17794-medium_620052_atc_sport.jpg[/image]
There are two slots on almost all tube-type belay devices for a reason. And no, it's not so you can belay two people at once.

2. Bionic 8 - Mammut
[image]http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/image/MoosejawMB/10085392_zm_product.jpg[/image]
You use a fig. 8 because it offers smooth rappels. They suck at pretty much everything else. So you go out and make a device that's an i-beam version, eliminating the smooth bar stock, and likely a lot of the smoothness of the rappel. And seriously, do you really need to be counting the ounces for a sport rappelling?!? Better yet, you are seriously sport rappelling!?!

3. Pyramid - Trango
[image]http://ai.pricegrabber.com/pi/8/93/98/89398908_160.jpg[/image]
This is a good idea like Coke-II and communism. Might sound cool on paper, but when you actually try it, it sucks. If you've ever tried to use one of these, I'm sorry. I'd rather hip belay.



Anyone have any others?

I knew a guy that had a pyramid when I was fairly new. He didn't seem to have any problems. He loved how thick it was and that it apparently didn't get sharp edges as fast as other belay devices. He was also really pumped on the "cooling ridges". Now that i'm more experienced I still don't know if he knew wtf he was talking about. I've never had any complaints with a belay device being too hot but I suppose if you have wimpy hands the pyramid would cool down faster than other devices.

Has anyone else noticed that this looks like the eye of thundera?

How long did it take you to wear through your
ATC?

Btw, my guide and xp rarely get hot enough to burn me, even on full length rappels.

p.s. the smart is VERY rad and VERY eazy to use. Think of it as a 30 dollar gri gri. Used it to clean a route recently on rappel, backed it up but otherwise treated it like a gri gri, rap, brush sand, rap, brush sand, SEND!

p.s. it was 10a and I flubbed it.

This may sound crazy, but maybe, just maybe, the people using a single slot belay device know that its a single slot. Its a new idea, its fun, kinda hokey but whatever, it works and some people probably swear by it.

No, it isn't a new idea. About 40+ years old, actually. Before the Sticht Plate, some climbers used a single link of 3/8" chain.

THANKS

I WILL MAKE SURE TO AMEND MY FUTURE STATEMENTS TO REFLECT THE TWO GUYZ THAT USED CHAINLINKZ

MUCH CARE/LOVE
GREGARIUS

Quit being an ass. The Sticht Plate was also a single slot device and was the standard belay device for years. And a hell of a lot more than two guys used the chain links.

If you're going to comment on climbing history, at least get it right.

homey i dont know what crawled up your hex and died but what do you expect when you nitpick like a high school math teacher?

I'll show my work and not just the answers from here on out, I promise!!11

This is a minor blip in the radar of climbing history. I know my climbing history, real history. White spider shit and stories from way back when before you were a curmudgeon. Don't try to pigeonhole me in with other young guys who don't know what they are talking about.

I'm gonna have another beer, enjoy your internet nazi'sm. I'm sure its appreciated.

Belay device for single or double ropes. With 2 allen keys it is possible to change the diameter, so it can be used with thinner ropes (always from 7.5 to 11mm)

Stop hijacking my thread, and get back to the topic at hand?

Mad Lock - Mad Rock


There was a reason Petzl discontinued this design. Though some may appreciate the versatility of a belay device that can magically turn into a knife, I think I'll stay away. And what's with this removable pin crap? I say hell no to the frankenreverso.

But all these devices show one problem we are facing today: The range of ropes used is too wide!
There are still places/ situations where 10.5 or even 11mm is a good choice, whereas on the other hand we are using sub 8mm doubles (or sub 9mm singles). so its either stick to one rope type, or carry multiple devices. (or try to reinvent the wheel, err ... belay device)

qwert

Wild Country VC Pro. Worst ever modern belay device. I bought while waiting for the reverso 3 to be available (and I'm a gear whore). I thought it would work well since it looked like the BD ATC XP and it was cheaper. I returned it to the store the next day.

[image]http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/imgs/3791i2783.jpg[/image]

This Faders device is amoung the worst around. On fatter ropes at least belay is horrible.



Stich plates are better. Or better yet for those on a budget go the ALDI device!
http://www.aldi.com.au/...offers/2827_9045.htm

Maldaly may have some comments on this, but as I recall it was Craig Luebben who first came up with the idea of putting flanges on a rappel device to dissipate heat. I had discussions with him as he developed the idea, which ultimately became the Pyramid.

At that time, there had a been some rappelling accidents reported ANAM where the rappel device had heated up (in the sun, heavy loads, etc.) causing a decrease in the friction of the rope in the device and the climber losing control of the descent.

Qualitatively, the flanges do increase heat dissipation. The question, Is this quantitatively significant? And that's not so easy to answer.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

It would be worthwhile to build a belay device (for testing purposes) with the same mass as the pyramid, but with a minimized exterior surface area, and compare the cooling times of the two after identical rappelling/lowering simulations.

Why? I could see building one of the same core size (minus the cooling fins) to see what difference was incurred.

Because the point is to test the overall effectiveness of the cooling fins, not just the theoretical effectiveness of the cooling fins. We want to know if the increased rate of cooling due to the added surface area of the fins is sufficiently large to offset the resistance to cooling caused by the additional mass. The only way to control for that is to create a belay device of identical mass but that minimizes the surface area. Otherwise, you'll introduce unequal heating rates as well, and your eventual data will be worthless. Basically, a pyramid without the added mass of the fins will heat faster, so we'd have a higher max temperature for the exact same rappel.

...

I can do the calculations for a fast 50m rappel:
80kg * 9.8 * 50m = 39200
39200 / 50g / .9(J/gK) = 871K

thats a fast rappel

You cleary have little understanding of the physics involved here. Increased mass will always result in a lower peak temperature achieved. Increased surface area will always increase the rate of cooling and thus lower peak temperature.

80kg * 9.8m/s/s * 50m = 39200J

Lemme make sure I understand your argument here:

By increasing the mass, we decrease the maximum temperature achieved.

WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT I SAID IF YOU'D BOTHERED TO READ IT.

I said that we can't simply compare a pyramid with fins to a pyramid without fins since a pyramid that simply lacks fins will have lower mass.

And again, the issue is not of overall heat in the system, it is heat that remains in the device.

And ANYBODY who says that a rappel device shouldn't heat up that much has NEVER done a 60m rappel on dual 10.5mm ropes, much less a fast rappel.

Should I write out the energy in/energy out equations so you can see why a fast rappel would heat up the device faster than a slow rappel? Or can you work that out yourself?

9.8m/s^2 is free fall, not a "fast rappel."

Well, for one, 30s for 165 feet is pretty bleedin' fast. I'd burn out a pair of gloves doing that.

Still, it'd take a lot of time to have a major impact if the only time that the device was cooling was when it was on the rope.

And furthermore, the question is not "does the device dissipate the heat put into the system?" but rather, "does it effectively dissipate the heat input into the device?"

Your second calculation is meaningless because you ignore the most useful part of your first post, that the rope is the primary sink in the system.

I actually wouldn't be that surprised if 300J was the difference between melting a sheath and not melting a sheath since there's a much larger amount of rope mass to deal with the rest.

That was completely predictable.

Jay

Exposed surface area of ATC ~ 36cm^2 or 0.0036m^2

Stop hijacking my thread, and get back to the topic at hand?

Mad Lock - Mad Rock


There was a reason Petzl discontinued this design. Though some may appreciate the versatility of a belay device that can magically turn into a knife, I think I'll stay away. And what's with this removable pin crap? I say hell no to the frankenreverso.