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lena_chita
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Oct 17, 2009, 9:27 PM
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camhead wrote: In reply to: If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors. uhhhh... you learn when you climb there. It's really not that hard.
But you need to PRACTICE first! The guy who wants to practice multi-pitch on single-pitch sport climb had the right idea, but no one was listening to him.
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healyje
Oct 17, 2009, 9:32 PM
Post #27 of 121
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NC - it's the new CT. I suppose it's enevitable that even NC, with it's proud history of solid ethics and strong creative climbers, will come under siege by a rising tide of cluelessness and risk aversion. Why should history and tradition stand in the way of the obvious?
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camhead
Oct 17, 2009, 9:35 PM
Post #28 of 121
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lena_chita wrote: camhead wrote: In reply to: If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors. uhhhh... you learn when you climb there. It's really not that hard. But you need to PRACTICE first! The guy who wants to practice multi-pitch on single-pitch sport climb had the right idea, but no one was listening to him.
Really, it's very irresponsible of gyms to just have anchors to clip, rather than simulated gear placement anchors at the top. I mean, how are trad climbers going to be prepared for when they have to build anchors on single pitch trad climbs?
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reno
Oct 17, 2009, 9:36 PM
Post #29 of 121
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TarHeelEMT wrote: reno wrote: camhead wrote: Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines that don't have easily determined walk-offsIf you add the italics, I'd agree with you 100%. I don't. Put in fixed passive pro; it's the North Carolina way.
Screw that.
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jmeizis
Oct 17, 2009, 9:37 PM
Post #30 of 121
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I read "whatever, it's cragging dude", as "I'm lazy and can't be bothered to change my attitude." So what if it's cragging. Most people start off cragging and what happens if they take the stupid shit they learned cragging and start applying it to other things? It doesn't have to be a wilderness crag to have some standards.
In reply to: uhhhh... you learn when you climb there. It's really not that hard.
They just gonna pull new skills out of their assholes? If people didn't need to learn new skills then the whole outdoor education industry wouldn't exist. They're not gonna learn, they're going to try and apply what they already know, bolt it into convenience.
As I said before:
In reply to: If it's a really long walk off, or there is a cliff top environment that's getting severely damaged then I'm not opposed to a bolted anchor.
Certain places do well to have bolted anchors. You said they all should, and I disagreed. I think bolted anchors are used a lot more than they need to be. I think slings, and roots effect access less than the rat a tat tat of a drill and shiny new chain anchors. I doubt that people too lazy to build gear anchors would take the time to camoflage their bolts.
It sounds like you're saying that because of it's setting that standards should be more loose. Once again that sounds like laziness. It doesn't matter if it's Patagonia, or Wall St. If an adequate gear anchor can be placed then there is no need to have a bolted one. That's the thing about ethical standards, they can be broadly applied.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 9:38 PM
Post #31 of 121
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jmeizis wrote: I swap leads on single pitch trad plenty
fascinating.
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camhead
Oct 17, 2009, 9:40 PM
Post #32 of 121
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clausti wrote: jmeizis wrote: I swap leads on single pitch trad plenty fascinating.
Well, from what I've heard about the speed he and gmburns move at, this is not surprising.
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jmeizis
Oct 17, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Indeed.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 9:43 PM
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jmeizis wrote: They just gonna pull new skills out of their assholes? If people didn't need to learn new skills then the whole outdoor education industry wouldn't exist. They're not gonna learn, they're going to try and apply what they already know, bolt it into convenience.
i dunno, maybe i can pay a professional in the outdoor education industry to ask directions on the way to a route.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 9:46 PM
Post #35 of 121
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camhead wrote: Really, it's very irresponsible of gyms to just have anchors to clip, rather than simulated gear placement anchors at the top. I mean, how are trad climbers going to be prepared for when they have to build anchors on single pitch trad climbs?
These are not analogous in any way.
In the gym example, the gym is not actively doing something to provide learning experiences. It's an omission.
In the crag example, by bolting where unnecessary, you are actively diminishing opportunities. It's an act of commission.
(This post was edited by TarHeelEMT on Oct 17, 2009, 9:48 PM)
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jmeizis
Oct 17, 2009, 9:51 PM
Post #36 of 121
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Maybe you can STFU and get back to the subject.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 9:52 PM
Post #37 of 121
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TarHeelEMT wrote: camhead wrote: Really, it's very irresponsible of gyms to just have anchors to clip, rather than simulated gear placement anchors at the top. I mean, how are trad climbers going to be prepared for when they have to build anchors on single pitch trad climbs? These are not analogous in any way. In the gym example, the gym is not actively doing something to provide learning experiences. It's an omission. In the crag example, by bolting where unnecessary, you are actively diminishing opportunities. It's an act of commission.
that's a stupid argument. if you want to learn how to built trad anchors at the top of a climb, a couple of bolts two feet to the side of the crack don't block your gear placements. go ahead and build an anchor.
but saying that climbing at an exclusively single pitch crag should prepare someone for climbing multipitch is bogus. the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 9:55 PM
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jmeizis wrote: Maybe you can STFU and get back to the subject.
um, no, you basically said that we should not bolt anchors on single pitch sport climbs so that people in the "outdoor education industry" would have stuff for people to pay to be taught. which seems *awfully* self-serving, coming from you. but it is consistent with your broad spectrum contempt for other people that you've demonstrated before.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 10:00 PM
Post #39 of 121
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clausti wrote: the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else.
Wait... are you actually telling me to stop complaining about how the climbing at a given crag is done... on a thread complaining about the way we choose to climb in North Carolina?
Stop for a moment and think about that, will you?
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 10:14 PM
Post #40 of 121
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TarHeelEMT wrote: clausti wrote: the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else. Wait... are you actually telling me to stop complaining about how the climbing at a given crag is done...
no, i'm saying that it's stupid to say that climbing at a single pitch crag should prepare you for multipitch. and that "but then how will people learn to build anchors for multipitch" is not a reason not to bolt anchors on single pitch.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 10:15 PM
Post #41 of 121
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clausti wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: camhead wrote: Really, it's very irresponsible of gyms to just have anchors to clip, rather than simulated gear placement anchors at the top. I mean, how are trad climbers going to be prepared for when they have to build anchors on single pitch trad climbs? These are not analogous in any way. In the gym example, the gym is not actively doing something to provide learning experiences. It's an omission. In the crag example, by bolting where unnecessary, you are actively diminishing opportunities. It's an act of commission. that's a stupid argument. if you want to learn how to built trad anchors at the top of a climb, a couple of bolts two feet to the side of the crack don't block your gear placements. go ahead and build an anchor.
What, exactly about my argument is stupid? My argument was that a previously stated analogy was invalid, which it was, regardless of whether or not you think single-pitch trad routes should be bolted.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 10:17 PM
Post #42 of 121
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clausti wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: clausti wrote: the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else. Wait... are you actually telling me to stop complaining about how the climbing at a given crag is done... no, i'm saying that it's stupid to say that climbing at a single pitch crag should prepare you for multipitch. and that "but then how will people learn to build anchors for multipitch" is not a reason not to bolt anchors on single pitch.
Really? Because "the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else," sounds an awful lot like you're telling me to stop complaining about how we do things at the crags in question on this thread.
I could be misinterpreting that, but you were pretty clear.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 10:19 PM
Post #43 of 121
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TarHeelEMT wrote: clausti wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: In the crag example, by bolting where unnecessary, you are actively diminishing opportunities. It's an act of commission. that's a stupid argument. if you want to learn how to built trad anchors at the top of a climb, a couple of bolts two feet to the side of the crack don't block your gear placements. go ahead and build an anchor. What, exactly about my argument is stupid?
the bolded part. if you bolt an anchor or sling a tree and leave rap rings, you're not in any way hurting the crack or other natural pro placements. so the opportunity to build your own anchors is still there, and has not been taken away. to say that something which is still there has been taken away is stupid.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 10:20 PM
Post #44 of 121
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Regardless, the answer to the "ethics question" in this thread is very simple.
The climbing community in North Carolina and its pioneers strongly reject all but the sparsest of bolting, and then only when other options are not viable. It is therefore unethical to bolt a route in North Carolina unless you established it.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 10:20 PM
Post #45 of 121
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TarHeelEMT wrote: clausti wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: clausti wrote: the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else. Wait... are you actually telling me to stop complaining about how the climbing at a given crag is done... no, i'm saying that it's stupid to say that climbing at a single pitch crag should prepare you for multipitch. and that "but then how will people learn to build anchors for multipitch" is not a reason not to bolt anchors on single pitch. Really? Because "the climbing at a given crag is the climbing at a given crag, and if you want to do something different, go climb someplace else," sounds an awful lot like you're telling me to stop complaining about how we do things at the crags in question on this thread. I could be misinterpreting that, but you were pretty clear.
look dude, i already clarified. you can feel free to take it whatever way you want from there.
(This post was edited by clausti on Oct 17, 2009, 10:21 PM)
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jmeizis
Oct 17, 2009, 10:28 PM
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Hold on let me flip that around for ya. If you don't want to learn how to build gear anchors at the top of a climb, then climbing somewhere else won't interfere with your laziness.
You're attributing things to me that I did not say but that's consistent with your broad spectrum lack of intelligence. I said that outdoor instruction wouldn't exist if it weren't necessary for people to learn new skills, be that toproping, belaying, or whatever. That's not the same as saying that something should or shouldn't be done (like chopping bolted anchors) to keep outdoor instruction financially solvent.
I know it's hard but try to keep in mind that we're talking about single pitch trad climbs. Although if there were a single pitch sport climb that had gear placements at the top then I'd guess there were probably gear placements throughout the line making the bolts unnecessary. That's besides the point.
Now, before you hit that reply button do a quick test for me and answer these questions:
1. Am I saying this to piss someone off or because I don't like someone in this thread?
2. Does this have anything to do with the OP or the following discussion.
3. Do I just want to hear myself talk?
If you answer yes to two or more of those questions then please kindly wait until you have something worthwhile to say because I don't particularly enjoy responding to worthless dribble.
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 17, 2009, 10:29 PM
Post #47 of 121
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clausti wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: clausti wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: In the crag example, by bolting where unnecessary, you are actively diminishing opportunities. It's an act of commission. that's a stupid argument. if you want to learn how to built trad anchors at the top of a climb, a couple of bolts two feet to the side of the crack don't block your gear placements. go ahead and build an anchor. What, exactly about my argument is stupid? the bolded part. if you bolt an anchor or sling a tree and leave rap rings, you're not in any way hurting the crack or other natural pro placements. so the opportunity to build your own anchors is still there, and has not been taken away. to say that something which is still there has been taken away is stupid.
I get what you're saying, but disagree. In the purest sense, yes the opportunity to place protection in the crack still exists. But how many climbers actually will do that? Sure, a handful of people who showed up for that express purpose will, but 90+% of climbers won't. They'll opt for convenience. I would even though I hate bolts, because it's just silly not to use a fixed anchor if it's there.
Therein lies the problem. People who ultimately desire to do multi-pitch trad (at least until bolts are placed on all of those routes, too) will realistically be building fewer and fewer gear anchors because of the convenience. Even experienced multi-pitch trad climbers will have fewer and fewer repetitions of building trad anchors, making them less proficient in their skills when absolutely needed.
So yes, you are diminishing learning opportunities by bolting the top of every trad route.
So, instead of learning and gaining experience being the norm, by bolting the single-pitch trad, the learning process becomes something that you have to set about to do in the face of a more convenient option. That makes for fewer repetitions and less safe climbing when the anchors aren't there. It takes much of the learning curve away from the single-pitch realm where self-rescue is simple and places it in a much more dangerous environment. That's bad.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 10:48 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: So, instead of learning and gaining experience being the norm, by bolting the single-pitch trad, the learning process becomes something that you have to set about to do in the face of a more convenient option. That makes for fewer repetitions and less safe climbing when the anchors aren't there. It takes much of the learning curve away from the single-pitch realm where self-rescue is simple and places it in a much more dangerous environment. That's bad.
if your ultimate priority is the most safety for the most climbers, and on the one hand you have bolted anchors at the top of every single-pitch route which maximizes safety for single-pitch-only climbers and on the other hand you have bolted anchors only when there is absolutely no walk-off, which maximizes safety for climbers who will ultimately do multipitch climbs, then your decision to bolt anchors at the top of the climbs or not should be based on which user group is more numerous.
but it doesn't sound like you're taking the relative populations into account; i don't think you've even mentioned it. so i remain skeptical that climber safety is what's driving your arguments.
to be somewhat more nuanced, it would make more sense to make the above judgement on a crag-by-crag basis, and in NC i'd guess that the percentage of climbers who climb at least some multipitch is a lot higher than the percentage in, say, kentucky.
and to learn to build an anchor properly in the first place, someone has to intentionally teach you. so whether or not you have to learn before your first ever lead pitch of trad or before you lead multipitch doesn't seem like it really matters all that much to me.
lastly (for this post), exclusively single-pitch crags are often more crowded than multipitch areas. hence "cragging." and people walking on clifftops does a lot of damage to trees and plants, and tatty sling collections are ugly, uglier than bolts, and i just don't see the difference in leaving fixed nuts or hexes for anchors vs bolts; you're still leaving gear. so yeah, i do think that single pitch climbs should have bolted anchors.
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clausti
Oct 17, 2009, 10:51 PM
Post #50 of 121
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jmeizis wrote: 1. Am I saying this to piss someone off or because I don't like someone in this thread? 2. Does this have anything to do with the OP or the following discussion. 3. Do I just want to hear myself talk?
1. yes.
2. no.
3. i'm typing.
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