if your ultimate priority is the most safety for the most climbers, and on the one hand you have bolted anchors at the top of every single-pitch route which maximizes safety for single-pitch-only climbers and on the other hand you have bolted anchors only when there is absolutely no walk-off, which maximizes safety for climbers who will ultimately do multipitch climbs, then your decision to bolt anchors at the top of the climbs or not should be based on which user group is more numerous.

but it doesn't sound like you're taking the relative populations into account; i don't think you've even mentioned it. so i remain skeptical that climber safety is what's driving your arguments.

I am arguing for safety, but not for those who have no business leading a trad route. If you can't build a safe anchor, then you shouldn't be climbing where you rely on gear to hold a fall. Period. So no, I am not concerned about people who have no business on a trad route who make the decision to climb something that is beyond their ability. Those are people who consciously make a bad decision and are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

to be somewhat more nuanced, it would make more sense to make the above judgement on a crag-by-crag basis, and in NC i'd guess that the percentage of climbers who climb at least some multipitch is a lot higher than the percentage in, say, kentucky.
I never argued otherwise. But this thread is about someone who probably doesn't have the experience or knowledge necessary to be on the routes he's choosing to climb insisting that we change our climbing practices to suit his inability.

and to learn to build an anchor properly in the first place, someone has to intentionally teach you. so whether or not you have to learn before your first ever lead pitch of trad or before you lead multipitch doesn't seem like it really matters all that much to me.
It's about repetition for experienced multipitch climbers, as well. If you don't practice your skills at the more accessible single-pitch crags, then you will be less proficient when it counts. It's not just about learning for new people; it's continuing education and skill maintenance.


lastly (for this post), exclusively single-pitch crags are often more crowded than multipitch areas. hence "cragging." and people walking on clifftops does a lot of damage to trees and plants, and tatty sling collections are ugly, uglier than bolts, and i just don't see the difference in leaving fixed nuts or hexes for anchors vs bolts; you're still leaving gear. so yeah, i do think that single pitch climbs should have bolted anchors.
That's why we give Pilot Mountain as an offering to the masses. Our crags are seldom crowded because the people who don't know what they're doing overwhelm that single-pitch crag with bolted anchors and steer clear of the quality crags.

If you don't know how to build gear anchors because you're crag is all bolted then what are you gonna do when you go to NC, MN, WI, SD, NY, MA, NH, ME, CT and the many other states that have little to no bolted anchors.

I am arguing for safety, but not for those who have no business leading a trad route. If you can't build a safe anchor, then you shouldn't be climbing where you rely on gear to hold a fall. Period. So no, I am not concerned about people who have no business on a trad route who make the decision to climb something that is beyond their ability. Those are people who consciously make a bad decision and are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

You can easily, and arguably more safely, learn to belay from the top with a bolted anchor.

And NEVER go climbing anywhere there is a walk-off or a communal rap anchor. Never visit Ship Rock, Moore's Wall, Rumbling Bald, Linville Gorge

+1

Troll or not, I'm going to rant here. As far as I'm concerned, there should be bolted anchors at the top of ALL single pitch trad lines. Trees are getting killed at Paradise Forks because of a lack of bolted anchors. At many areas such as Joshua Tree and City of Rocks the only decent anchor options wind up throwing your rope down into the crack. And at almost all these areas where there is not a walkoff, this results in clusterfucks and crowds at designated rap stations.

The whole phobia against bolted anchors at the top of single pitch trad routes is a relic from the era in which it was assumed that ONE person would lead to the top of a pitch, and then belay a follower up from the top. While this makes sense fo multipitches, it is not conducive to cragging at all, in which one person may want to do a route that nobody else wants to do, or conversely, for a situation in which many people may want to toprope the same pitch.

There, I said it. BOLT THE SINGLE PITCH TARD CARCKS!

1. Am I saying this to piss someone off or because I don't like someone in this thread?
2. Does this have anything to do with the OP or the following discussion.
3. Do I just want to hear myself talk?

If you're proficient at it, then it's just as easy and equally safe to belay from the top with a gear anchor. There's no reason that people who don't know how belay from a gear anchor shouldn't learn how.

It's not about adventure, it's about having a skill that is necessary for climbing. I don't understand what the big deal is about people placing a few pieces?

It's also about not permanately screwing up the rock. Bolts make a permanent scar. Climbing in some places you'll notice the weird little holes, why make them if they're not needed?

If your cragging is about mileage then why don't you go to a gym, it's loads safer and you'll get way more mileage without having to deal with the pesky gear, leading, guidebooks, bugs, trails, weather, etc.

You might not climb harder from building anchors but you'll be faster and more proficient at it with practice.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to bolts so I'll say it again. Why place the bolt if it's not necessary. It's a real easy ethical premise in which I can think of a few circumstances where it's necessary.

I am going climbing tomorrow in North Carolina. Because of this thread, I want to do something really controversial. I am bringing my brand new bosch. I am going to retro a well know classic. What one will it be?

But seriously, improving access can sometimes hurt access, especially at smaller crags that can't handle the load of noobs that come running when they hear "good toprope location".

...
Hell, the same is true at the New -- now that they've retrofit top-rope anchors on so many of the gear routes --

There was some other good posts but I'm about to hit the road again(it is the weekend and the weather is great). I don't rap for convenience. I would rather walk off than anything, but sometimes you gotta rap because the walk off is too long, and I have no issues walking to another rap station but sometimes thats impossible.

The CCC? Fuck them. I've never met a member in one of their leadership positions that wasn't a dick. I know a guy who offered to pay for replacement bolts for Pilot, they didn't even send him an email back. Maybe they aren't all like that, I don't know. But I won't join the CCC until they get friendlier.

You don't need an anchor. You need an enema.