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cracklover
Dec 21, 2009, 8:12 PM
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Any idea what the climb was?
GO
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fdel13
Dec 21, 2009, 9:41 PM
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DenverPost.com//Craig B. wrote: being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device
Somone there commented they were using a 50m rope as well when climb requires 60m. Glad he's apparently okay.
Too bad it's not more of a best practice to tie a knot in end of line or take a similar preventive measure. I think there's a bit of a stigma attached to it, that to do so is n00b when "obviously" there's enough rope. However it doesn't take too much to change sometimes, for that to be a fatal mistake.
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markc
Dec 21, 2009, 9:54 PM
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I have a habit of loosely knotting one end of the rope to a loop in my rope bag. I've considered dressing it a bit better, but my active ropes are all 60m, and I'm usually at familiar crags. I hope the climber mends well.
Here's the whole comment from the linked article:
Craig B wrote: I was there when this happened and there are a couple of inaccuracies in this story. The most significant is that he fell far more than 20 feet. The fall was somewhere around 35 feet. He was being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device. Based on the position of the rope after the accident, it appears he was climbing on a 50-meter rope. The climb he was on requires a 60-meter rope. A 50-meter rope is 33 feet too short. He is very lucky to have survived that fall. Best wishes as he recovers.
(This post was edited by markc on Dec 21, 2009, 9:55 PM)
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pfwein
Dec 21, 2009, 10:04 PM
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fdel13 wrote: DenverPost.com//Craig B. wrote: being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device Somone there commented they were using a 50m rope as well when climb requires 60m. Glad he's apparently okay. Too bad it's not more of a best practice to tie a knot in end of line or take a similar preventive measure. I think there's a bit of a stigma attached to it, that to do so is n00b when "obviously" there's enough rope. However it doesn't take too much to change sometimes, for that to be a fatal mistake.
Funny that we all have our experiences that, unless you climb with a bunch of different people in different places, may not reflect other people's all that closely.
There's certainly no stigma in tying a knot in the end of the rope in my little circle, either always or always except for when you know you are on a shorty climb and there is no question whatsoever of even getting close to an end.
And among anyone who uses the term "best practice" in connection with climbing, I've got to think knot in the end (or equivalent) is at the top of the list of things to make a "best practice." Certainly the most common cause of easily-preventable user error that I've seen.
Don't meant to bust of fdel13, just very surprised that someone has experienced the reported stigma--that would be like a stigma on checking that your knot is properly tied, locking biners are locked, etc.
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markc
Dec 22, 2009, 1:37 AM
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pfwein wrote: Don't meant to bust of fdel13, just very surprised that someone has experienced the reported stigma--that would be like a stigma on checking that your knot is properly tied, locking biners are locked, etc.
I recall a time when my circle of friends became a bit lax with partner checks, me included. It was when we started getting comfortable with climbing. I've seen not-quite-new people treat partner checks like an accusation of incompetence. Once you realize that you can go on auto-pilot and that really good climbers have checked out as a result, that line of thought stops cold.
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bill413
Dec 22, 2009, 2:47 AM
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There are a number of areas around here where you get looked at with amused tolerance if you knot the end of a rope. Most are climbs that are short...but some of them would tax a 50m. Still, people assume they know how long their ropes are.
Yeah, the low profile way is to leave one end tied into the rope bag.
And, even though the tolerance is amused - it is still tolerance. Go ahead and tie the knot.
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timstich
Dec 23, 2009, 9:34 PM
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Is it true that there are some places that other climbers laugh at knot tying? Anyone who would smirk at someone for tying a knot in the other end of their rope is a moron.
A girl either rappelled or was lowered off a short rope to her death at Cat Slab years ago. I always tie a knot just in case I grab the wrong rope or mixed up which one is longer, etc.
(This post was edited by timstich on Dec 23, 2009, 9:37 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Dec 23, 2009, 9:56 PM
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bill413 wrote: There are a number of areas around here where you get looked at with amused tolerance if you knot the end of a rope. Most are climbs that are short...but some of them would tax a 50m. Still, people assume they know how long their ropes are. Yeah, the low profile way is to leave one end tied into the rope bag. And, even though the tolerance is amused - it is still tolerance. Go ahead and tie the knot.
I nearly learned that lesson the hard way. I don't have any problem tying a back up knot. Shoot, I've done it in the gym when using the gym's ropes. I have no desire to fall suddenly when I thought I was being lowered smoothly.
Too bad. Hope the climber heals up well and has learned a lesson.
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angry
Dec 24, 2009, 12:23 PM
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timstich wrote: Is it true that there are some places that other climbers laugh at knot tying? Anyone who would smirk at someone for tying a knot in the other end of their rope is a moron. A girl either rappelled or was lowered off a short rope to her death at Cat Slab years ago. I always tie a knot just in case I grab the wrong rope or mixed up which one is longer, etc.
Don't forget that the "length" of a route is just a guess by some stoner. No-one drops a measuring tape down a route.
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zeke_sf
Dec 24, 2009, 1:06 PM
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angry wrote: timstich wrote: Is it true that there are some places that other climbers laugh at knot tying? Anyone who would smirk at someone for tying a knot in the other end of their rope is a moron. A girl either rappelled or was lowered off a short rope to her death at Cat Slab years ago. I always tie a knot just in case I grab the wrong rope or mixed up which one is longer, etc. Don't forget that the "length" of a route is just a guess by some stoner. No-one drops a measuring tape down a route.
Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate.
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olderic
Dec 24, 2009, 3:14 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate.
Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
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troutboy
Dec 24, 2009, 3:47 PM
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olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
Us real old schoolers prefer cubits.
TS
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shoo
Dec 24, 2009, 4:35 PM
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olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
Awesome.
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bhickey
Dec 24, 2009, 10:05 PM
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olderic wrote: Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears"
I love seeing "Halfway to hell" when I walk to work.
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timstich
Dec 25, 2009, 12:50 AM
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Someone is saying it was actually Highlander Crag and not Highwire over on mp.com
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clmbr
Dec 26, 2009, 12:50 AM
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Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go.
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markc
Dec 26, 2009, 3:45 AM
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clmbr wrote: Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go.
I understand your perspective, but my opinion differs. I rarely tie stopper knots, even when rappelling multipitch routes. I understand and accept the risk I'm taking. I feel there are other steps I can take to protect myself, and there are occasions where stopper knots can do more harm than good.
I don't mean to offend, but there are a couple points in your story where you clearly weren't paying sufficient attention. Roughly estimating 40' of rope isn't difficult, and most people would pull a few extra arm-lengths for good measure. You pulled half that. You said you glanced down and everything looked good. If I'm not 100% certain both ends are down, I'll ask for verification, make sure I'm at the middle of the rope, etc. The stopper knot kept your ass off the deck, but there were two earlier steps that could have done the same.
edit-typo
(This post was edited by markc on Dec 26, 2009, 2:45 PM)
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Dec 26, 2009, 12:31 PM
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troutboy wrote: olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears" Us real old schoolers prefer cubits. TS
I use the cubit measuring system all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Man_Measurements.png
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robdotcalm
Dec 29, 2009, 4:02 AM
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Having known several competent climbers who’ve been “lowered” into an accident because the end of the rope went through the belay device, I’ve commented about this in several threads on the subject. This past November, I ran across something new. I had a day of guided climbing. At the end of the day, we had some time for toproping. The guide started to belay me without a knot in his end of the rope. I asked that he put a knot there. He said it wasn’t necessary and only somebody who was unaware of what he was doing would put a knot in the rope. I said, “OK, I have a low level of awareness” and then knotted his end of the rope before I started up. He acted insulted. I was discouraged to think that in his job he teaches beginners.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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onrockandice
Dec 29, 2009, 5:16 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: He acted insulted. I was discouraged to think that in his job he teaches beginners. Cheers, Rob.calm
Not only that but:
* My guess is this was your first time and probably last time climbing with him. Extra measures matter.
* In one short day of climbing you can in no way measure someone's awareness. If Dingus was your belay and on *that* day there was 9 blondes in a conga line next to you Dingus would be fully unaware. You'd have no accidents but you'd also have no measure of his awareness.  (I'm only quoting Dingus here.)
* The guide is an idiot. Redundancy is safe climbing. A knot in the ends of the rope or tying in make a rope redundant. Without them you have one single point of protection.
* The only way I'd tip a guide is if I felt safe the whole time and well informed. Your guide would have been short a tip.
But I'm sure he was half your age and felt he knew twice as much. His awareness must have been something else.
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dingus
Dec 29, 2009, 5:35 PM
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onrockandice wrote: * In one short day of climbing you can in no way measure someone's awareness. If Dingus was your belay and on *that* day there was 9 blondes in a conga line next to you Dingus would be fully unaware. You'd have no accidents but you'd also have no measure of his awareness. (I'm only quoting Dingus here.)
Oh I'd be AWARE. I assure you. Hyper-aware.
DMT
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onrockandice
Dec 29, 2009, 5:58 PM
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Yes but when someone shouted, "Take!" I'd really love to see your interpretation of the :cough: command. 
EDIT: Crap! Just realized this was accident/injury. Mods! Sorry for taking it this direction. If you scrub it I'm sorry you had to. I won't take my comments any further. I had replied using a thin client that doesn't tell me which forum I'm in.
(This post was edited by onrockandice on Dec 29, 2009, 6:00 PM)
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dynosore
Dec 29, 2009, 6:03 PM
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markc wrote: clmbr wrote: Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go. I understand your perspective, but my opinion differs. I rarely tie stopper knots, even when rappelling multipitch routes. I understand and accept the risk I'm taking. I feel there are other steps I can take to protect myself, and there are occasions where stopper knots can do more harm than good. I don't mean to offend, but there are a couple points in your story where you clearly weren't paying sufficient attention. Roughly estimating 40' of rope isn't difficult, and most people would pull a few extra arm-lengths for good measure. You pulled half that. You said you glanced down and everything looked good. If I'm not 100% certain both ends are down, I'll ask for verification, make sure I'm at the middle of the rope, etc. The stopper knot kept your ass off the deck, but there were two earlier steps that could have done the same. edit-typo
How exactly do you "ask for vefification" that the "ends are down" "even when rappelling multipitch routes"? Your post is contradictory and nonsensical.
So, you know it's dangerous to not tie a knot, buy you accept the risk? Makes sense to me.....
Maybe you're superhuman and pay attention 100.000% of the time, but the rest of us have been known to make mistakes.
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dingus
Dec 29, 2009, 6:20 PM
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Yup. Know a guy who has 3 decades of experience. He knotted the ends of his rap ropes and threw them down for the next rap.
The wind blew his ropes 50 feet over to an adjacent crack system where they promptly got stuck.
The resulting 'antics' to retrieve those knotted ends would make your ass pucker up like the end of a hotdog.
Rote answers and inflexible minds to not mix well with the sport of climbing.
DMT
ps. Yes I eventually got my knots unstuck lol! 12 pitches off the deck with eyes as wide as saucers!
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markc
Dec 30, 2009, 1:41 AM
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dynosore wrote: markc wrote: clmbr wrote: Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go. I understand your perspective, but my opinion differs. I rarely tie stopper knots, even when rappelling multipitch routes. I understand and accept the risk I'm taking. I feel there are other steps I can take to protect myself, and there are occasions where stopper knots can do more harm than good. I don't mean to offend, but there are a couple points in your story where you clearly weren't paying sufficient attention. Roughly estimating 40' of rope isn't difficult, and most people would pull a few extra arm-lengths for good measure. You pulled half that. You said you glanced down and everything looked good. If I'm not 100% certain both ends are down, I'll ask for verification, make sure I'm at the middle of the rope, etc. The stopper knot kept your ass off the deck, but there were two earlier steps that could have done the same. How exactly do you "ask for vefification" that the "ends are down" "even when rappelling multipitch routes"? Your post is contradictory and nonsensical.
You threw together two unrelated parts of my post. I never claimed I ask for verification that the ends are down on multipitch routes.
The context clmbr originally put forward was rappelling 40 feet at a familiar crag. In that situation, I'd ask a friend if my ends were down if I was at all unsure. If I don't have a partner at the base, I visually inspect, watch rope ends as I rappel, and keep the speed manageable. He/she didn't do those things.
Obviously with multipitch rappels it's a different situation. I'll often know the length of the rap. I have bi-weave and middle-marked ropes, but I'm also pretty good at finding the middle without them. Much of the above holds true, as well.
dynosore wrote: So, you know it's dangerous to not tie a knot, buy you accept the risk? Makes sense to me..... Maybe you're superhuman and pay attention 100.000% of the time, but the rest of us have been known to make mistakes.
You and I accept the risk of both climbing and rappelling. Out of curiosity, do you always tie stopper knots, even when it's clear the ends are down? Do you always use a rappel backup? If not, you're making the same choice I am some of the time.
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robdotcalm
Dec 30, 2009, 11:09 PM
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This thread has drifted into confounding two different issues: (i) belaying a climber in a toprope situation and (ii) rappelling. For (i), without any exceptions, I want the belayer either tied into the rope or to have a knot in his rope. Rappelling is situational. For the most part in high wind situations, I do not place stopper knots in the rope. The are various techniques used for rappelling in high wind situations that have been discussed in threads over the years (mea culpa—I didn’t search). So many different things can happen rappelling that these techniques should be practiced ahead of time in a controlled environment, e.g., rappelling on one thin line, passing a knot, climbing back up the rope, etc. My paranoia stems from climbing frequently at Lumpy Ridge, where all climbing stories begin, “It was a warm and sunny day, hardly a breeze,….”
Situations can arise even on one pitch climbs that are surprising. This recently happened for me in an area that I’ve climbed in extensively. At the end of November, my partner and I climbed the first pitch of Break on Through at Eldorado. It was getting too dark to climb the second pitch so we rappelled from a station at the end of the pitch. I went first. We made the decision not to use stopper knots since it was windy and the rock is featured. As I was nearing the end of the rappel, I could see that the rope was about 7 ft. above a narrow ledge (we were using a 60 m rope). Once on the ledge, it’s an easy 25 foot downclimb. However, jumping to the ledge was not appealing to me since a fall would lead to rapid descent of the 25 feet. I was using an autoblock knot below my rappel device so I could easily free both hands. I tied a sling above the belay device using a klemheist knot. I then made a ladder by girth hitching a few slings starting with the first sling. I jumped on the ladder to test it. It held I then released the rappel device and climbed the ladder to the ledge. This was the first time I’ve ever used this technique in a situation that really required it. I was glad that I had practiced it beforehand.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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Adk
Dec 31, 2009, 2:02 PM
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dingus wrote: The resulting 'antics' to retrieve those knotted ends would make your ass pucker up like the end of a hotdog. DMT
Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
Knotting the ends of your rope is like wearing your seatbelt. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. Most of the time it is. Thanks for the story.
Got anymore of it?
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chrisJoosse
Jan 4, 2010, 11:39 PM
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troutboy wrote: olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears" Us real old schoolers prefer cubits. TS
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 5, 2010, 12:47 AM
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chrisJoosse wrote: troutboy wrote: olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears" Us real old schoolers prefer cubits. TS ...and measure our fuel efficiency in "furlongs per hogshead"
I think I once heard Curt referring to his bank account in Talents.
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 5, 2010, 12:48 AM
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bill413 wrote: DenverPost.com//Craig B. wrote: being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device  I'm glad he is surviving - albeit with hip damage.
Its a scary thing that comes from both experienced and inexperienced alike... a friend of mine was dropped VERY far on tahqtuitz and walked out. One of the lucky ones.
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