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dynosore
Dec 29, 2009, 6:03 PM
Post #26 of 33
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Registered: Jul 29, 2004
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markc wrote: clmbr wrote: Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go. I understand your perspective, but my opinion differs. I rarely tie stopper knots, even when rappelling multipitch routes. I understand and accept the risk I'm taking. I feel there are other steps I can take to protect myself, and there are occasions where stopper knots can do more harm than good. I don't mean to offend, but there are a couple points in your story where you clearly weren't paying sufficient attention. Roughly estimating 40' of rope isn't difficult, and most people would pull a few extra arm-lengths for good measure. You pulled half that. You said you glanced down and everything looked good. If I'm not 100% certain both ends are down, I'll ask for verification, make sure I'm at the middle of the rope, etc. The stopper knot kept your ass off the deck, but there were two earlier steps that could have done the same. edit-typo
How exactly do you "ask for vefification" that the "ends are down" "even when rappelling multipitch routes"? Your post is contradictory and nonsensical.
So, you know it's dangerous to not tie a knot, buy you accept the risk? Makes sense to me.....
Maybe you're superhuman and pay attention 100.000% of the time, but the rest of us have been known to make mistakes.
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dingus
Dec 29, 2009, 6:20 PM
Post #27 of 33
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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Yup. Know a guy who has 3 decades of experience. He knotted the ends of his rap ropes and threw them down for the next rap.
The wind blew his ropes 50 feet over to an adjacent crack system where they promptly got stuck.
The resulting 'antics' to retrieve those knotted ends would make your ass pucker up like the end of a hotdog.
Rote answers and inflexible minds to not mix well with the sport of climbing.
DMT
ps. Yes I eventually got my knots unstuck lol! 12 pitches off the deck with eyes as wide as saucers!
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markc
Dec 30, 2009, 1:41 AM
Post #28 of 33
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Registered: Jan 21, 2003
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dynosore wrote: markc wrote: clmbr wrote: Tie a knot every time, even on short, well known climbs. I threw the rope over the edge of a 40ft climb we've done lots. Everyone had wandered off to look around,I glanced down, yep looked good, and rapped down only to feel my hand come up against something.It was the knot I'd tied and I still had 20 ft to go. I understand your perspective, but my opinion differs. I rarely tie stopper knots, even when rappelling multipitch routes. I understand and accept the risk I'm taking. I feel there are other steps I can take to protect myself, and there are occasions where stopper knots can do more harm than good. I don't mean to offend, but there are a couple points in your story where you clearly weren't paying sufficient attention. Roughly estimating 40' of rope isn't difficult, and most people would pull a few extra arm-lengths for good measure. You pulled half that. You said you glanced down and everything looked good. If I'm not 100% certain both ends are down, I'll ask for verification, make sure I'm at the middle of the rope, etc. The stopper knot kept your ass off the deck, but there were two earlier steps that could have done the same. How exactly do you "ask for vefification" that the "ends are down" "even when rappelling multipitch routes"? Your post is contradictory and nonsensical.
You threw together two unrelated parts of my post. I never claimed I ask for verification that the ends are down on multipitch routes.
The context clmbr originally put forward was rappelling 40 feet at a familiar crag. In that situation, I'd ask a friend if my ends were down if I was at all unsure. If I don't have a partner at the base, I visually inspect, watch rope ends as I rappel, and keep the speed manageable. He/she didn't do those things.
Obviously with multipitch rappels it's a different situation. I'll often know the length of the rap. I have bi-weave and middle-marked ropes, but I'm also pretty good at finding the middle without them. Much of the above holds true, as well.
dynosore wrote: So, you know it's dangerous to not tie a knot, buy you accept the risk? Makes sense to me..... Maybe you're superhuman and pay attention 100.000% of the time, but the rest of us have been known to make mistakes.
You and I accept the risk of both climbing and rappelling. Out of curiosity, do you always tie stopper knots, even when it's clear the ends are down? Do you always use a rappel backup? If not, you're making the same choice I am some of the time.
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robdotcalm
Dec 30, 2009, 11:09 PM
Post #29 of 33
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Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
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This thread has drifted into confounding two different issues: (i) belaying a climber in a toprope situation and (ii) rappelling. For (i), without any exceptions, I want the belayer either tied into the rope or to have a knot in his rope. Rappelling is situational. For the most part in high wind situations, I do not place stopper knots in the rope. The are various techniques used for rappelling in high wind situations that have been discussed in threads over the years (mea culpa—I didn’t search). So many different things can happen rappelling that these techniques should be practiced ahead of time in a controlled environment, e.g., rappelling on one thin line, passing a knot, climbing back up the rope, etc. My paranoia stems from climbing frequently at Lumpy Ridge, where all climbing stories begin, “It was a warm and sunny day, hardly a breeze,….”
Situations can arise even on one pitch climbs that are surprising. This recently happened for me in an area that I’ve climbed in extensively. At the end of November, my partner and I climbed the first pitch of Break on Through at Eldorado. It was getting too dark to climb the second pitch so we rappelled from a station at the end of the pitch. I went first. We made the decision not to use stopper knots since it was windy and the rock is featured. As I was nearing the end of the rappel, I could see that the rope was about 7 ft. above a narrow ledge (we were using a 60 m rope). Once on the ledge, it’s an easy 25 foot downclimb. However, jumping to the ledge was not appealing to me since a fall would lead to rapid descent of the 25 feet. I was using an autoblock knot below my rappel device so I could easily free both hands. I tied a sling above the belay device using a klemheist knot. I then made a ladder by girth hitching a few slings starting with the first sling. I jumped on the ladder to test it. It held I then released the rappel device and climbed the ladder to the ledge. This was the first time I’ve ever used this technique in a situation that really required it. I was glad that I had practiced it beforehand.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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Adk
Dec 31, 2009, 2:02 PM
Post #30 of 33
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Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085
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dingus wrote: The resulting 'antics' to retrieve those knotted ends would make your ass pucker up like the end of a hotdog. DMT
Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
Knotting the ends of your rope is like wearing your seatbelt. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. Most of the time it is. Thanks for the story.
Got anymore of it?
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chrisJoosse
Jan 4, 2010, 11:39 PM
Post #31 of 33
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Registered: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 150
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troutboy wrote: olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears" Us real old schoolers prefer cubits. TS
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 5, 2010, 12:47 AM
Post #32 of 33
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Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804
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chrisJoosse wrote: troutboy wrote: olderic wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Whatever. Estimating route length in purple elephants is highly accurate. Us old schoolers prefer "smoots" and "ears" Us real old schoolers prefer cubits. TS ...and measure our fuel efficiency in "furlongs per hogshead"
I think I once heard Curt referring to his bank account in Talents.
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 5, 2010, 12:48 AM
Post #33 of 33
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Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804
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bill413 wrote: DenverPost.com//Craig B. wrote: being lowered when the end of the rope ran through his partner's belay device  I'm glad he is surviving - albeit with hip damage.
Its a scary thing that comes from both experienced and inexperienced alike... a friend of mine was dropped VERY far on tahqtuitz and walked out. One of the lucky ones.
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