Hey! Take that back. I have never even top roped 5.13 anything. I just know some people have delicate egos around here and I truly wanted honest answers. And my answer is both, btw...depends on the day! But I would be proud to do either. And I've been climbing for nine years. Is that long enough?
Out of curiosity, how hard *do* you climb? And how often do you lead routes where falling is quite likely?
Because you sure sound like someone with very little experience pushing yourself on hard grades. Not saying you are, but you sure sound like it when you talk about barely making it up a climb by pure luck.
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been a scarredy cat when it comes to leading. I'm not really sure why this is pertinent or whatnot? I made the poll cause I thought it was interesting, yet here I am again with someone calling me noob. I never said anything like this thread was for experienced climbers only. Or that I was experienced or hardcore. So what is your point please?
PS. I quit smoking two days ago and am fairly grumpy before you ask about PMS and hand me a tampon.
(This post was edited by karmiclimber on Feb 2, 2010, 9:53 PM)
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been a scarredy cat when it comes to leading. I'm not really sure why this is pertinent or whatnot? I made the poll cause I thought it was interesting, yet here I am again with everyone calling noob. I never said anything like this thread was for experienced climbers only. Or that I was experienced or hardcore. So what is your point please?
I'm sorry if my post above seems to be giving you a hard time. That's not my intent. I was simply trying to shed water on what was a very confusing matter. Because your poll is biased by your own viewpoint, and I wanted to confirm what I suspected. Thanks for the confirmation.
Since you answered my question, I'll answer yours. I would choose to "do it right". But for me, to "do it right" means the opposite of what it means to you. It doesn't mean to get on something easy for me and climb it as though I was walking on a sidewalk.
It means to push through the crux over questionable gear, with huge scary exposure, near my limit, just as the thunderstorm really opens up. Or it could mean topping out on a climb that has beat me down many times before, mentally and physically. Or it could mean beating myself to a pulp, attempting as many climbs in a single day as I've done in some years. It means knowing that I've grown as a climber. It means keeping my shit together and going above and beyond what I could reasonably expect from myself.
Oh, and I just saw your edit - quitting smoking is inspiring, too. I bet it doesn't feel easy right now. But it's a great example of how you might be "grumpy" and not at your most graceful, but would you rather be calm and casual with a coffin nail in your hand, or struggling through something hard and worthwhile (for you)?
Style is great and all but my most euphoric moments in climbing have been when I pushed myself out of my comfort zone: thrutching, grunting and shaking. Getting to the top of those climbs was an accomplishment. Of course coming back and repeating those routes with good style is nice but it's the initial conquest that is most memorable to me. I do a lot of climbing well below my limit as a rope gun and as nice as it is to have complete control I find it a shallow end.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
It means to push through the crux over questionable gear, with huge scary exposure, near my limit, just as the thunderstorm really opens up. Or it could mean topping out on a climb that has beat me down many times before, mentally and physically. Or it could mean beating myself to a pulp, attempting as many climbs in a single day as I've done in some years. It means knowing that I've grown as a climber. It means keeping my shit together and going above and beyond what I could reasonably expect from myself.
GO
YEAH! In my world FUN!! Wish I could say it like that. Damn, sometimes I feel like such a n00b. I love it, it makes me ambitious! Thanks!
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
I've really got to quit spending so much time in the campground. When I first saw this:
karmiclimber wrote:
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been a scarredy cat when it comes to leading.
I read this:
karmiclimber wrote:
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been scantily clad when it comes to leading.
Now that is climbing with style!
Funny. Whenever I lead, I DO end up taking a few layers off, as my buddies are always encouraging me to climb lighter. Plus, I hotter when I lead... wait... I mean...heh. But I (and my buddies) do tend to overheat when on lead, which means less layers. So please everyone, keep up the awesome style!
Mmmm summer climbing, I look forward to the nice views!
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
I think people are getting hung up on the bolded above. It's confusing because that could mean something different for everyone. And by labeling it "right", you already have a preconceived notion about the what the answer to your question was.
A couple pages back I wrote this. "There is something cool about being able to do something that you are not sure you could repeat. Whether it was the perfect combination of strength, rest, alertness, nutrition, attitude, luck, and the stars were aligned just so? You just sit back and revel in what may never happen again. That's pretty cool. "
What is necessarily "right" about being able to send a climb with what you call "style". I would rather be on the edge. That edge that you know is there and you could wind up on either side of it. That's what keeps us alive. What you call climbing in style, I call warming up. Once I have "warmed-up" with "style", I will be ready for the main-event, that climb where I will either fail or just barely make it.
I totally agree with what you wrote. I guess I didn't realize it before...but I am really hard on myself sometimes about my climbing, like very aware when I don't climb "the right way". If I don't feel like I'm flowing, I feel like I'm a flailing mess. Its truly personal though. And its held me back from climbing harder, because I fear not climbing the right way.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
I think people are getting hung up on the bolded above. It's confusing because that could mean something different for everyone. And by labeling it "right", you already have a preconceived notion about the what the answer to your question was.
A couple pages back I wrote this. "There is something cool about being able to do something that you are not sure you could repeat. Whether it was the perfect combination of strength, rest, alertness, nutrition, attitude, luck, and the stars were aligned just so? You just sit back and revel in what may never happen again. That's pretty cool. "
What is necessarily "right" about being able to send a climb with what you call "style". I would rather be on the edge. That edge that you know is there and you could wind up on either side of it. That's what keeps us alive. What you call climbing in style, I call warming up. Once I have "warmed-up" with "style", I will be ready for the main-event, that climb where I will either fail or just barely make it.
Josh
Well said. +1
There is nothing wrong with enjoying something easy. There are a lot of enjoyable things that don't require much effort. Eating a cheesecake is VERY easy-- and I enjoy it quite a bit. Hiking, lying on a sandy beach in the sun... we coud go on and on. A casual day of climbing when you enjoy the beautiful scenery and look around and get barely winded as you climb fall into this category, too.
But there is also satisfaction of accomplishing something hard for you. And there is a special clarity and focus that happens when you are working so hard that there is just no room for anything else, for any extraneous thoughts.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
I know this is start to beat a dead horse, but I'd like to mention when I climb something at my limit you better believe that I've done it right! When it's really super hard for me I'll be flying if I don't.
I understand when you're climbing at a lower lever you might not have the technique on harder climbs and maybe you only get through by yarding and flailing. When you have a decent technique base built up and you're climbing something hard you're not going to send by yarding and flailing, you send because you've climbed it well/smart/right.
Yeah but if I am so concentrated on just making it to the next bolt that I can't even smile, let alone pause to ponder the perfect foot placement...that is what I am talking about. I don't really flail (unless the rock has a surprise wet spot, spider or the anchor turns out to be rusty pitons).
Yeah but if I am so concentrated on just making it to the next bolt that I can't even smile, let alone pause to ponder the perfect foot placement...that is what I am talking about. I don't really flail (unless the rock has a surprise wet spot, spider or the anchor turns out to be rusty pitons).
Well... if you want to, you CAN work though that. If you don't want to, you can continue doing what you are doing. Either way, it's your choice.
By the way, spiders, bees, copperheads, wet spots and rusty pitons are not the reasons for flailing either... in fact, you probably should want to flail even less if your last piece is a rusty piton, and you just disturbed a wasp nest.
Being able to smile while working to the next bolt is not a style requirement. If you are so concentrated that you "can't even smile"-- well, that means that you are about halfway there to the level of concentration that is required to climb at your limit. When you stop thinking of not being able to smile, you'll get a little closer to it still, maybe. Eventually you might get so focused that you will, paradoxically, get relaxed -- and then you would be surprized to see a photo of yourself smiling slightly and looking relaxed while climbing something so hard for you that you cannot think of anything esle at the moment, can't see the photographer, can't see anything, in fact, beyond your 6-ft-radius bubble, and aren't aware of smiling at the time.
And I understand perfecty what you mean about being so scared that you can't pause to contemplate your next foot placement- -and it DOES qualify as flailing, by the way. Flailing is not necessarily an out-of-control dynamic movement and yelling. That's what guys do often. But flailing is also just bad inefficient static movement, not being able to go to full extension b/c you are too tight and not breating right, matching hands unnecessarily, all of it. When we are scared/pumped, technique is the first to go. The foot placement gets sloppy, the overgripping eats up your forearms, the chicken wings make their ominous appearance, the sewing machine leg starts, etc. etc. depending on the nature of the climb.
But KNOWING that it is the first thing to go also gives you something to focus and work on. And yes, you can work through your fear and not let it affect your technique quite as much.
To me the best praise, when I come down from climbing a route that was hard for me, is to hear an onlooker say "you made it look easy"-- and to know internally that I was at the edge, yet didn't let that feeling of barelymakingthemove and notsureIcandoit get translated into sloppy foot placement and inefficient movement.
I was joking about the spiders and wetspots. Once again no one is reading what Im writing, they are all assuming and jumping to yell noob. And if you guys are so good and make all of these super hard routes look easy, why don't you go get sponsered?
I think your discussion is interesting and so are the responses. Give and take - no one can read the other's mind, hehe.
I can only risk falls now in carefully controlled situations. So climbing at my limit means something quite different than it did 10, 20, 30 years ago (hehe).
For me... taking the time to use a calm style, a careful style, no matter the rating of the route, is key. This 'requirement' keeps me from getting in over my head and perhaps getting hurt again.
And I do NOT want to get hurt again.
All that said I typically am leading within a number grade (or 2, hehe) of my top rope limits, on any given day.
Funny. Whenever I lead, I DO end up taking a few layers off, as my buddies are always encouraging me to climb lighter. Plus, I hotter when I lead... wait... I mean...heh. But I (and my buddies) do tend to overheat when on lead, which means less layers. So please everyone, keep up the awesome style!
ls
Yes LS you should lighten your load.
And to set the record straight, you climb with a good style and pretty quiet feet.
But yes, with too much shit hanging off the back of your harness lol.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way.
You're mistaken - I have read the whole thread. Not only that, but I went back to re-read all your posts, and puzzled over them before I posted. And I'm not the only one who thinks that "doing it right", for you, means climbing something relatively easy (for you), or at most, climbing something hard that you have ruthlessly wired. In short, it seems to mean climbing something where, unless you do something really stupid, you will succeed, and it shows in your confidence and competence while climbing. If you mean something different, do please tell.
Anyway, that's by no means a universal definition of "doing it right".
Now I want to clarify one thing. I talked about how much climbing "on the edge" means to me. And it does - I love it, and I need it. But I don't want to give the impression that that's the *only* thing worth doing. In fact, I'm way too much of a wuss to be able to bite off those big objectives on more than special occasions. I guess you could say that it's only sometimes that the rat needs a full meal. The rest of the time I can keep it relatively sated with little dribs and drabs.
I was joking about the spiders and wetspots. Once again no one is reading what Im writing, they are all assuming and jumping to yell noob. And if you guys are so good and make all of these super hard routes look easy, why don't you go get sponsered?
I don't think anyone is jumping on you and calling you a n00b. If that's how you are reading it, maybe you should look inside for reasons.
I read what you said, and it was 'i don't flail much, unless there is a spider, or a wet spot, or a rusty piton'. Sorry for not understanding a joke in it and responding as if you were serious.
And the key in what I wrote was hard FOR ME routes. It doesn't mean much in absolute difficulty level. I have said earlier, that everyone who wants to work upward through the grades HAS to face that feeling of being out of your comfort zone, and learn to work though it. At what level does it happen is not important. You don't have to want it. Your way is your way. My way is my way. Both are right for the appropriate person.
I think I know what you mean ... there are these days when you try something hard and it's an all out war, and you have to sweat and grunt and scream and curse and every move feels iffy and you're out of control ... and, well the only thing that gets you to the top is a continual push to fight. Sometimes I'm in the mood to deal with that and sometimes I'd rather just style the easier grade. I have moods and I have moods.
But I have to say the best of all is when I had the good fortune to style the harder grade. Those remarkable times when you can have it all: both the style and the hard grade. It hasn't happened much, but some of my hardest climbs went this way. Mostly style and not much fight at all.
(This post was edited by yanqui on Feb 3, 2010, 4:52 PM)
I was joking about the spiders and wetspots. Once again no one is reading what Im writing, they are all assuming and jumping to yell noob. And if you guys are so good and make all of these super hard routes look easy, why don't you go get sponsered?
I don't think anyone is jumping on you and calling you a n00b. If that's how you are reading it, maybe you should look inside for reasons.
I read what you said, and it was 'i don't flail much, unless there is a spider, or a wet spot, or a rusty piton'. Sorry for not understanding a joke in it and responding as if you were serious.
And the key in what I wrote was hard FOR ME routes. It doesn't mean much in absolute difficulty level. I have said earlier, that everyone who wants to work upward through the grades HAS to face that feeling of being out of your comfort zone, and learn to work though it. At what level does it happen is not important. You don't have to want it. Your way is your way. My way is my way. Both are right for the appropriate person.
To get beyond journeywoman and into expert category one must make 'working out of the comfort zone' a comfort zone.
Yes?
that has been my experience and definitely with the truly good climbers I have been blessed to climb with, they were indeed inside their zone when pushing at the edges of it.
This mental capacity is not limited by style - I've seen the same people consistently push sport grades, trad grades, bouuldering and most amazing of all, ground up first ascents.
The strongest minds I have ever known, really. People I'd want in the trenches with me in combat... can keep their shit together!
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