Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
(This post was edited by karmiclimber on Feb 1, 2010, 2:32 PM)
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
Barely making it up a harder grade, I donīt care about the grade but I love having a challenge I really have to fight with to complete. I rather send something that takes more effort then something I can cruise
No honey, it was in the body of my message, bless your heart. You get a pass dingus...I know you are all man ;-)
Ah!
Mark me down for ''slightly easier but with style' , gender male, and when we going climbing karmi? If you lead all the lines then I don't have to worry about style at all!
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 1, 2010, 2:39 PM)
As a true man, I enjoy just barely making it. I have gotten more satisfaction from routes that scared the crap out of me and I survived after all. I do enjoy cruising routes too but it's not as good.
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
It all depends who is watching, I would say if some hot babe is watching go for style, if some random dood is wathcing I couldn't care crap, go for MAX.
The satisfaction of barely making it up a climb that's at your limit is fantastic. You really have to push yourself to the brink of both your physical and mental limit.
Numbers isn't what it's all about, they are only give you an idea of how hard you'll have to push. An "easier" climb can be hugely challenging if it's not your style.
If you can't figure out my gender you need to be slapped upside the head.
I am not sure what you mean by 'barely making it".
If by barely making it you mean hang everywhere, grab draws, step on bolts, and get help from rope tension -- then no, I would rather send an easier climb with style, without any questions or allegations abour whether I really climbed it cleanly. There have been couple climbs that I was happy to just get to the anchors on, but they aren't something to be proud of-- unless I eventually go back and send cleanly.
If by barely making it you mean that it took forever to redpoint, you were not at all certain you could do it, and you sent it finally on a day where the conditions, and your climbing shape, were just right, and still only managed to do it by the skin of your teeth, but are not at all sure you would be able to repeat it once more... then sure, count me in that category, I would be WAAAYY more proud of that barely-able-to-do-it send than of sending an easier climb.
The satisfaction of barely making it up a climb that's at your limit is fantastic. You really have to push yourself to the brink of both your physical and mental limit.
Numbers isn't what it's all about, they are only give you an idea of how hard you'll have to push. An "easier" climb can be hugely challenging if it's not your style.
If you can't figure out my gender you need to be slapped upside the head.
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
It all depends who is watching, I would say if some hot babe is watching go for style, if some random dood is wathcing I couldn't care crap, go for MAX.
But if the babe is a climber, she won't give a shit how gracefully you onsight that 5.6.
If "just barely making it up" means without falling or aiding, then I would choose that of course.
But I have the feeling it means any manner of wankery is acceptable - resting on intermediately placed gear placed specific for that purpose, placing gear blindly overhead and asking for tension to "free climb" through, falling repeatedly, and more. I simply don't think I would find that satisfying.
So of course I would choose the "easier but with style" since that's that's the only other option you offer.
But I definitely give you Style Points for creating a good climbing-related thread for poor old, doddering rec.com.... Business has been slow round these parts of late!
I'm not sure how to answer this either. I like climbing at my limit. Sometimes I get things clean and sometimes I fall. Of course I prefer to get things clean, but that's not always on an easier grade.
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
It all depends who is watching, I would say if some hot babe is watching go for style, if some random dood is wathcing I couldn't care crap, go for MAX.
But if the babe is a climber, she won't give a shit how gracefully you onsight that 5.6.
ME LIKE CLIMB HARD. I IS A MAN. GARRRRRRRR!
If babe is a climber, I usually just give up hope.... they are all better than me anyway
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
I love onsighting when it is right at my limit, and I can barely clip the chains. I chose the lower grade. I find working routes to be sort of pointless unless I have done all of the routes at an area, and that rarely happens because I never get too hung up on one crag.
While I enjoy climbing hard I get a lot of satisfaction from finishing a climb and feeling that I was perfectly in tune with my body and the route. I love the feeling of control!
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
It all depends who is watching, I would say if some hot babe is watching go for style, if some random dood is wathcing I couldn't care crap, go for MAX.
But if the babe is a climber, she won't give a shit how gracefully you onsight that 5.6.
guy, chose easier, don't really care about climbing hard, per se. I'm more interested in getting out and having fun. I do occassionally push my limit and I do prefer to climb at my limit most of the time, but I'd rather have fun than struggle mightily. I struggle mightily with enough other things in life that I don't need that stuff invading my fun.
I am not sure what you mean by 'barely making it".
If by barely making it you mean hang everywhere, grab draws, step on bolts, and get help from rope tension -- then no, I would rather send an easier climb with style, without any questions or allegations abour whether I really climbed it cleanly. There have been couple climbs that I was happy to just get to the anchors on, but they aren't something to be proud of-- unless I eventually go back and send cleanly.
If by barely making it you mean that it took forever to redpoint, you were not at all certain you could do it, and you sent it finally on a day where the conditions, and your climbing shape, were just right, and still only managed to do it by the skin of your teeth, but are not at all sure you would be able to repeat it once more... then sure, count me in that category, I would be WAAAYY more proud of that barely-able-to-do-it send than of sending an easier climb.
I'd rather work my ass off and make a mess out of accomplishing a route that I didnt think I could do ON MY OWN (ie no hanging on the rope, no hints from below, no grabbing the draws etc) than look pretty doing a route that I can figure out from the ground.
I like to do both. The beauty of it is that one often helps with the other. "Getting it done" on a hard climb often helps me "do it right" on an easier climb and vice-versa. Oh, and male.
Its like this: If you are barely seizuring your way up a .13c, it might feel good when you get to the top, but when you think back on it you know its not fully mastered. Onsighting or casually redpoitning a .13a with grace shows alot more climbing skill IMO.
Its like this: If you are barely seizuring your way up a .13c, it might feel good when you get to the top, but when you think back on it you know its not fully mastered. Onsighting or casually redpoitning a .13a with grace shows alot more climbing skill IMO.
It only shows that climber not climibng at his limit, which doesn;t mean he's gonna do any better on the 13.c
lena_chita wrote:I am not sure what you mean by 'barely making it".
If by barely making it you mean hang everywhere, grab draws, step on bolts, and get help from rope tension -- then no, I would rather send an easier climb with style, without any questions or allegations abour whether I really climbed it cleanly. There have been couple climbs that I was happy to just get to the anchors on, but they aren't something to be proud of-- unless I eventually go back and send cleanly.
If by barely making it you mean that it took forever to redpoint, you were not at all certain you could do it, and you sent it finally on a day where the conditions, and your climbing shape, were just right, and still only managed to do it by the skin of your teeth, but are not at all sure you would be able to repeat it once more... then sure, count me in that category, I would be WAAAYY more proud of that barely-able-to-do-it send than of sending an easier climb.
I don't mean grabbing draws or having to hike the rope or even taking...I mean barely making it as in, it felt a little desperate and just out of your comfort zone. You may not have fallen, but it was more due to luck that you didn't fall. So you could claim onsight if you wanted. As opposed to climbing a slightly easier climb that you send with confidence and style...it feels more natural to you. I know I didn't bring all the different types of rock into play...overhung, crack, slab, arete, etc into play with the poll, but we can if you want to, also.
I'm kind of disappointed. I thought this would be like....Would you Rather....Eat a live spider......or a dead cockroach.
But, anyways...Generally, I like to send stuff in good style. But what inspires me more than anything is the quality and aesthetics of the climb, whether it's harder or not. I would rather hangdog a stellar line than send a choss pile.
I don't mean grabbing draws or having to hike the rope or even taking...I mean barely making it as in, it felt a little desperate and just out of your comfort zone. You may not have fallen, but it was more due to luck that you didn't fall. So you could claim onsight if you wanted. As opposed to climbing a slightly easier climb that you send with confidence and style...it feels more natural to you.
Oh, in that case, I would rather just barely make it. A send is a send. There is something cool about being able to do something that you are not sure you could repeat. Whether it was the perfect combination of strength, rest, alertness, nutrition, attitude, luck, and the stars were aligned just so? You just sit back and revel in what may never happen again. That's pretty cool.
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
(This post was edited by yokese on Feb 1, 2010, 8:41 PM)
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
I agree! But myself and at least one other would have chosen "barely" had we known what she intended. Instead we chose "easier." (I didn't actually cast a vote in the poll though). I think some others might have made a similar choice.
And now this poor poll doesn't offer a choice for the person who WOULD rather grovel their way - any way they can - to the top.
I'm kind of disappointed. I thought this would be like....Would you Rather....Eat a live spider......or a dead cockroach.
But, anyways...Generally, I like to send stuff in good style. But what inspires me more than anything is the quality and aesthetics of the climb, whether it's harder or not. I would rather hangdog a stellar line than send a choss pile.
I am a male. Dead Cockroach.
Josh
I know an old lady who swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed a fly. I guess she'll die.
Just curious as to how important "doing it right" as opposed to "getting it done" is. Please include your gender and why you picked your answer. Thanks!
I'd really like to have honest answers too...we will all assume 5.13 C is the hard grade and 5.13 a is the easier grade. Which is more meaningful...the grade or the style?
Well each has its merits for sure. But, if I could climb 13a let alone 13c, wow, that would be something. Gender: "Dude"
'Getting it done' climbs are fun in a very addicting way. These are usually the climbs where' I've 'almost' fallen, stayed on only by that involuntary body clench of fear, and scared out of my socks - it's invigorating! At the time, I'm a little 'erk' but when I get to the top, I'm pointing and laughing...'did you see me almost loose it?' or 'I almost lost my lunch!' I haven't gotten enough of that exhilaration yet.
'Doing it right climbs' ARE generally easier for me, but I love them because I can give a little style (jazz hands!), with amusing(and perhaps slightly dirty) comments as I go up. Have a little fun without completely concentrating on survival. Plus these opportunities give me chance to try new ideas, body positions, etc in a mentally safer situation. While making amusing commentary of course. I DO usually laugh a touch more and wimper a lot less on these climbs.
So really, I just like it all! I think it depends on my mood, like so much.
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
Did the person who hung, pulled, dogged their way up, not make it to the top? She didn't clarify what she meant by "make it". You are putting arbitrary words in her mouth. Not so long ago, there was great pride in making it to the top, no matter what tactics were used.
I don't mean grabbing draws or having to hike the rope or even taking...I mean barely making it as in, it felt a little desperate and just out of your comfort zone. You may not have fallen, but it was more due to luck that you didn't fall. So you could claim onsight if you wanted. As opposed to climbing a slightly easier climb that you send with confidence and style...it feels more natural to you. I know I didn't bring all the different types of rock into play...overhung, crack, slab, arete, etc into play with the poll, but we can if you want to, also.
I assumed you meant redpoint...
'a little out of comfort zone and a little desperate' for an ONSIGHT counts in my book. And sure, I would be proud of it. I am not sure why you consider it to be "bad style." maybe you need to clarify your definition of good style now...
But I would be even MORE proud of onsighting something that I was a lot more than a little desperate on. In fact, I'd say almost every time my onsight or flash level bumped up a grade, it was something that was out of my comfort zone, it was something i wasn't sure I could onsight/flash, and it took extra something to hang on and work though that voice in the back of your head that was saying:"I've never onsighted this grade, I don't think I can do it, I am not sure what the next section is bringing, it looks hard, and I am pumped, and it would be a big fall... I wasted a lot of energy when I screwed up the sequence down low, I might be screwing the sequence right now, too, I am not sure if that next hold is good, it seems too far, I won't be able to reverse this move... it would be safer to just ask for a "take" right now. No big deal... no one would think bad of me if I do... I could send it on the next try... I'll be just as happy if I get it on the next try..."
To work through that and still send-- I think that is a special high that you will never know if you tell yourself you'd rather climb easy stuff within your comfort zone, and console yourself with doing it in good "style".
And since you brought up 5.13a vs 5.13c in your initial example, I'd like to add that IMO noone gets to climbing those grades without ever pushing themselves and getting out of their comfort zone. Sure, some get it easier than others, but still, at some point in grade progression you face that feeling of being out of your comfort zone, and you learn to work though it in order to improve further. Or you don't.
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
Did the person who hung, pulled, dogged their way up, not make it to the top? She didn't clarify what she meant by "make it". You are putting arbitrary words in her mouth. Not so long ago, there was great pride in making it to the top, no matter what tactics were used.
Really?
If someone claims that she has made a 5.13c, do you REALLY need clarification to know if she has gotten to the top PULLING the rope or the pro?. And I'm well aware about the time when an ascent resting on the pro was considered a valid ascent, but that was long ago. And even then, pulling was considered A0 (or french-free, whatever you prefer). I thought that nowadays any climber would understand, in the provided context of 5.13a vs 5.13c, what the OP meant. But apparently some climbers need further clarification. I stand corrected.
I believe the fun factor is most important!But if I had to pick one of your choices with a gun at my head,I would say the grade.And that is because we all have unique styles,just like monkeys. So as long as you can hack the grade ,right on!Good climb.
Both are good for me, i am always striving to climb something harder, but at the same time their is a lot of satisfaction making a climb effortless that at one point in time would have been a challenge.
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
Did the person who hung, pulled, dogged their way up, not make it to the top? She didn't clarify what she meant by "make it". You are putting arbitrary words in her mouth. Not so long ago, there was great pride in making it to the top, no matter what tactics were used.
Really?
If someone claims that she has made a 5.13c, do you REALLY need clarification to know if she has gotten to the top PULLING the rope or the pro?. And I'm well aware about the time when an ascent resting on the pro was considered a valid ascent, but that was long ago. And even then, pulling was considered A0 (or french-free, whatever you prefer). I thought that nowadays any climber would understand, in the provided context of 5.13a vs 5.13c, what the OP meant. But apparently some climbers need further clarification. I stand corrected.
Calm down there, sporto! I was under the impression that the 5.13 was merely an example of a larger question. Are we ONLY talking high-end sport climbing? In that case, I DON'T know what the fuck I'm talking about. I don't climb 5.13 sport. And obviously, you do, so carry on!
Btw, would you rather....Clean the floor of a public restroom with a toothbrush, then brush your teeth with it -OR- not wash your hands in any way for 3 months?
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Feb 1, 2010, 10:39 PM)
I was under the impression that the 5.13 was merely an example of a larger question. Are we ONLY talking high-end sport climbing? In that case, I DON'T know what the fuck I'm talking about. I don't climb 5.13 sport. And obviously, you do, so carry on!
what?? 5.13?? me???
In reply to:
Btw, would you rather....Clean the floor of a public restroom with a toothbrush, then brush your teeth with it -OR- not wash your hands in any way for 3 months?
What????
You triple-lost me there... I admit I don't know what the fuck you're talking about either Anyways, we were digressing already.
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
Did the person who hung, pulled, dogged their way up, not make it to the top? She didn't clarify what she meant by "make it". You are putting arbitrary words in her mouth. Not so long ago, there was great pride in making it to the top, no matter what tactics were used.
Really?
If someone claims that she has made a 5.13c, do you REALLY need clarification to know if she has gotten to the top PULLING the rope or the pro?. And I'm well aware about the time when an ascent resting on the pro was considered a valid ascent, but that was long ago. And even then, pulling was considered A0 (or french-free, whatever you prefer). I thought that nowadays any climber would understand, in the provided context of 5.13a vs 5.13c, what the OP meant. But apparently some climbers need further clarification. I stand corrected.
Calm down there, sporto! I was under the impression that the 5.13 was merely an example of a larger question. Are we ONLY talking high-end sport climbing? In that case, I DON'T know what the fuck I'm talking about. I don't climb 5.13 sport. And obviously, you do, so carry on!
Btw, would you rather....Clean the floor of a public restroom with a toothbrush, then brush your teeth with it -OR- not wash your hands in any way for 3 months?
The confusion is stemming from the OP's condescending tone in what just barely making it means.
She phrases it such that an unrehearsed or inefficient climb is somehow bad. I think she had her mind made up before she posed the question.
Maybe when she's been climbing longer she'll begin to realize how wonderful the rare onsight at your redpoint level really is.
So we need clarification from Karmi as to what she meant in the OP!
Really? Perhaps because English is not my first language, but it seems very clear to me that "barely making it" means exactly that: to be able to make it, but not by a large margin. What you interpreted in your previous post - hanging, tension, falling, etc - is NOT making it (barely or otherwise).
Did the person who hung, pulled, dogged their way up, not make it to the top? She didn't clarify what she meant by "make it". You are putting arbitrary words in her mouth. Not so long ago, there was great pride in making it to the top, no matter what tactics were used.
Really?
If someone claims that she has made a 5.13c, do you REALLY need clarification to know if she has gotten to the top PULLING the rope or the pro?. And I'm well aware about the time when an ascent resting on the pro was considered a valid ascent, but that was long ago. And even then, pulling was considered A0 (or french-free, whatever you prefer). I thought that nowadays any climber would understand, in the provided context of 5.13a vs 5.13c, what the OP meant. But apparently some climbers need further clarification. I stand corrected.
Calm down there, sporto! I was under the impression that the 5.13 was merely an example of a larger question. Are we ONLY talking high-end sport climbing? In that case, I DON'T know what the fuck I'm talking about. I don't climb 5.13 sport. And obviously, you do, so carry on!
Btw, would you rather....Clean the floor of a public restroom with a toothbrush, then brush your teeth with it -OR- not wash your hands in any way for 3 months?
Hey! Take that back. I have never even top roped 5.13 anything. I just know some people have delicate egos around here and I truly wanted honest answers. And my answer is both, btw...depends on the day! But I would be proud to do either. And I've been climbing for nine years. Is that long enough?
Going to a kind of unfamiliar crag, walking the base until you come to a really inspiring line, do the route old-school clean, leave no gear behind, get down without an epic...
Then search the guidebook and find out the name, and the grade is at least a full number grade higher than you thought it was!
And I've been climbing for nine years. Is that long enough?
Plenty. When was the last time you felt that you truly led beyond yourself though?
In reply to:
Hey! Take that back. I have never even top roped 5.13 anything. I just know some people have delicate egos around here and I truly wanted honest answers. And my answer is both, btw...depends on the day! But I would be proud to do either.
I wouldn't TR a 5.13 either. That shit needs to be worked on lead.
I voted for the just barely making it option even though I'm the guy who's only led 13a but I've got probably 2 dozen 12a and 12b trad onsights. At this point I'd rather send harder, I've been solid at a semi-hard grade long enough that style doesn't interest me much.
Going to a kind of unfamiliar crag, walking the base until you come to a really inspiring line, do the route old-school clean, leave no gear behind, get down without an epic...
Then search the guidebook and find out the name, and the grade is at least a full number grade higher than you thought it was!
To me, that is proficiency.
But I went with just barely making it for the EXACT same reasons!!
Forgot to add, 17 year old schoolgirl, just had 3 wine coolers.
I don't exactly get out much for climbing- I have a toddler. But I try to make one or two trips a year. I have one coming up that I have Big plans for meself for.
If you were to come up with a formula something like this:
If age + years-of-climbing-experience > threshold
Then probability of choosing style over grade approaches 1
The threshold might be gender specific. For males (me) I am proposing a threshold of ~100 (me again). I'd rather do something in control. Meaning there is a high probability that I could do it again.
Watch your mouth young man. There are ladies present. Namely a 17 year old <hoor> schoolgirl getting buzzed off wine coolers. Grades are cool too. Look at Sharma...grades AND style?! Swoon!!
you're right. i spoke too soon. i apologize. i like grades, but they go peeps heads(mostly in the gym though.) plus i'm bitter that i can't get a .11b i've been working for three months.
Hey! Take that back. I have never even top roped 5.13 anything. I just know some people have delicate egos around here and I truly wanted honest answers. And my answer is both, btw...depends on the day! But I would be proud to do either. And I've been climbing for nine years. Is that long enough?
Out of curiosity, how hard *do* you climb? And how often do you lead routes where falling is quite likely?
Because you sure sound like someone with very little experience pushing yourself on hard grades. Not saying you are, but you sure sound like it when you talk about barely making it up a climb by pure luck.
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been a scarredy cat when it comes to leading. I'm not really sure why this is pertinent or whatnot? I made the poll cause I thought it was interesting, yet here I am again with someone calling me noob. I never said anything like this thread was for experienced climbers only. Or that I was experienced or hardcore. So what is your point please?
PS. I quit smoking two days ago and am fairly grumpy before you ask about PMS and hand me a tampon.
(This post was edited by karmiclimber on Feb 2, 2010, 9:53 PM)
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been a scarredy cat when it comes to leading. I'm not really sure why this is pertinent or whatnot? I made the poll cause I thought it was interesting, yet here I am again with everyone calling noob. I never said anything like this thread was for experienced climbers only. Or that I was experienced or hardcore. So what is your point please?
I'm sorry if my post above seems to be giving you a hard time. That's not my intent. I was simply trying to shed water on what was a very confusing matter. Because your poll is biased by your own viewpoint, and I wanted to confirm what I suspected. Thanks for the confirmation.
Since you answered my question, I'll answer yours. I would choose to "do it right". But for me, to "do it right" means the opposite of what it means to you. It doesn't mean to get on something easy for me and climb it as though I was walking on a sidewalk.
It means to push through the crux over questionable gear, with huge scary exposure, near my limit, just as the thunderstorm really opens up. Or it could mean topping out on a climb that has beat me down many times before, mentally and physically. Or it could mean beating myself to a pulp, attempting as many climbs in a single day as I've done in some years. It means knowing that I've grown as a climber. It means keeping my shit together and going above and beyond what I could reasonably expect from myself.
Oh, and I just saw your edit - quitting smoking is inspiring, too. I bet it doesn't feel easy right now. But it's a great example of how you might be "grumpy" and not at your most graceful, but would you rather be calm and casual with a coffin nail in your hand, or struggling through something hard and worthwhile (for you)?
Style is great and all but my most euphoric moments in climbing have been when I pushed myself out of my comfort zone: thrutching, grunting and shaking. Getting to the top of those climbs was an accomplishment. Of course coming back and repeating those routes with good style is nice but it's the initial conquest that is most memorable to me. I do a lot of climbing well below my limit as a rope gun and as nice as it is to have complete control I find it a shallow end.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
It means to push through the crux over questionable gear, with huge scary exposure, near my limit, just as the thunderstorm really opens up. Or it could mean topping out on a climb that has beat me down many times before, mentally and physically. Or it could mean beating myself to a pulp, attempting as many climbs in a single day as I've done in some years. It means knowing that I've grown as a climber. It means keeping my shit together and going above and beyond what I could reasonably expect from myself.
GO
YEAH! In my world FUN!! Wish I could say it like that. Damn, sometimes I feel like such a n00b. I love it, it makes me ambitious! Thanks!
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
I've really got to quit spending so much time in the campground. When I first saw this:
karmiclimber wrote:
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been a scarredy cat when it comes to leading.
I read this:
karmiclimber wrote:
5.8 or 5.9 is my limit. I've always been scantily clad when it comes to leading.
Now that is climbing with style!
Funny. Whenever I lead, I DO end up taking a few layers off, as my buddies are always encouraging me to climb lighter. Plus, I hotter when I lead... wait... I mean...heh. But I (and my buddies) do tend to overheat when on lead, which means less layers. So please everyone, keep up the awesome style!
Mmmm summer climbing, I look forward to the nice views!
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
I think people are getting hung up on the bolded above. It's confusing because that could mean something different for everyone. And by labeling it "right", you already have a preconceived notion about the what the answer to your question was.
A couple pages back I wrote this. "There is something cool about being able to do something that you are not sure you could repeat. Whether it was the perfect combination of strength, rest, alertness, nutrition, attitude, luck, and the stars were aligned just so? You just sit back and revel in what may never happen again. That's pretty cool. "
What is necessarily "right" about being able to send a climb with what you call "style". I would rather be on the edge. That edge that you know is there and you could wind up on either side of it. That's what keeps us alive. What you call climbing in style, I call warming up. Once I have "warmed-up" with "style", I will be ready for the main-event, that climb where I will either fail or just barely make it.
I totally agree with what you wrote. I guess I didn't realize it before...but I am really hard on myself sometimes about my climbing, like very aware when I don't climb "the right way". If I don't feel like I'm flowing, I feel like I'm a flailing mess. Its truly personal though. And its held me back from climbing harder, because I fear not climbing the right way.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
I think people are getting hung up on the bolded above. It's confusing because that could mean something different for everyone. And by labeling it "right", you already have a preconceived notion about the what the answer to your question was.
A couple pages back I wrote this. "There is something cool about being able to do something that you are not sure you could repeat. Whether it was the perfect combination of strength, rest, alertness, nutrition, attitude, luck, and the stars were aligned just so? You just sit back and revel in what may never happen again. That's pretty cool. "
What is necessarily "right" about being able to send a climb with what you call "style". I would rather be on the edge. That edge that you know is there and you could wind up on either side of it. That's what keeps us alive. What you call climbing in style, I call warming up. Once I have "warmed-up" with "style", I will be ready for the main-event, that climb where I will either fail or just barely make it.
Josh
Well said. +1
There is nothing wrong with enjoying something easy. There are a lot of enjoyable things that don't require much effort. Eating a cheesecake is VERY easy-- and I enjoy it quite a bit. Hiking, lying on a sandy beach in the sun... we coud go on and on. A casual day of climbing when you enjoy the beautiful scenery and look around and get barely winded as you climb fall into this category, too.
But there is also satisfaction of accomplishing something hard for you. And there is a special clarity and focus that happens when you are working so hard that there is just no room for anything else, for any extraneous thoughts.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way. It would be rad to do either. My first 9 happened from a combination of bravery and luck...and a last minute choice to go for it. I'm still proud of that. I plan on using that method for my first 10 etc. I also appreciate doing it right. I wanted to see what generally meant more to different people. Style means less to me because it comes from a place of comfort. It's still meaningful but less than barely making it.
I know this is start to beat a dead horse, but I'd like to mention when I climb something at my limit you better believe that I've done it right! When it's really super hard for me I'll be flying if I don't.
I understand when you're climbing at a lower lever you might not have the technique on harder climbs and maybe you only get through by yarding and flailing. When you have a decent technique base built up and you're climbing something hard you're not going to send by yarding and flailing, you send because you've climbed it well/smart/right.
Yeah but if I am so concentrated on just making it to the next bolt that I can't even smile, let alone pause to ponder the perfect foot placement...that is what I am talking about. I don't really flail (unless the rock has a surprise wet spot, spider or the anchor turns out to be rusty pitons).
Yeah but if I am so concentrated on just making it to the next bolt that I can't even smile, let alone pause to ponder the perfect foot placement...that is what I am talking about. I don't really flail (unless the rock has a surprise wet spot, spider or the anchor turns out to be rusty pitons).
Well... if you want to, you CAN work though that. If you don't want to, you can continue doing what you are doing. Either way, it's your choice.
By the way, spiders, bees, copperheads, wet spots and rusty pitons are not the reasons for flailing either... in fact, you probably should want to flail even less if your last piece is a rusty piton, and you just disturbed a wasp nest.
Being able to smile while working to the next bolt is not a style requirement. If you are so concentrated that you "can't even smile"-- well, that means that you are about halfway there to the level of concentration that is required to climb at your limit. When you stop thinking of not being able to smile, you'll get a little closer to it still, maybe. Eventually you might get so focused that you will, paradoxically, get relaxed -- and then you would be surprized to see a photo of yourself smiling slightly and looking relaxed while climbing something so hard for you that you cannot think of anything esle at the moment, can't see the photographer, can't see anything, in fact, beyond your 6-ft-radius bubble, and aren't aware of smiling at the time.
And I understand perfecty what you mean about being so scared that you can't pause to contemplate your next foot placement- -and it DOES qualify as flailing, by the way. Flailing is not necessarily an out-of-control dynamic movement and yelling. That's what guys do often. But flailing is also just bad inefficient static movement, not being able to go to full extension b/c you are too tight and not breating right, matching hands unnecessarily, all of it. When we are scared/pumped, technique is the first to go. The foot placement gets sloppy, the overgripping eats up your forearms, the chicken wings make their ominous appearance, the sewing machine leg starts, etc. etc. depending on the nature of the climb.
But KNOWING that it is the first thing to go also gives you something to focus and work on. And yes, you can work through your fear and not let it affect your technique quite as much.
To me the best praise, when I come down from climbing a route that was hard for me, is to hear an onlooker say "you made it look easy"-- and to know internally that I was at the edge, yet didn't let that feeling of barelymakingthemove and notsureIcandoit get translated into sloppy foot placement and inefficient movement.
I was joking about the spiders and wetspots. Once again no one is reading what Im writing, they are all assuming and jumping to yell noob. And if you guys are so good and make all of these super hard routes look easy, why don't you go get sponsered?
I think your discussion is interesting and so are the responses. Give and take - no one can read the other's mind, hehe.
I can only risk falls now in carefully controlled situations. So climbing at my limit means something quite different than it did 10, 20, 30 years ago (hehe).
For me... taking the time to use a calm style, a careful style, no matter the rating of the route, is key. This 'requirement' keeps me from getting in over my head and perhaps getting hurt again.
And I do NOT want to get hurt again.
All that said I typically am leading within a number grade (or 2, hehe) of my top rope limits, on any given day.
Funny. Whenever I lead, I DO end up taking a few layers off, as my buddies are always encouraging me to climb lighter. Plus, I hotter when I lead... wait... I mean...heh. But I (and my buddies) do tend to overheat when on lead, which means less layers. So please everyone, keep up the awesome style!
ls
Yes LS you should lighten your load.
And to set the record straight, you climb with a good style and pretty quiet feet.
But yes, with too much shit hanging off the back of your harness lol.
If you read the whole thread you would know I don't feel that way.
You're mistaken - I have read the whole thread. Not only that, but I went back to re-read all your posts, and puzzled over them before I posted. And I'm not the only one who thinks that "doing it right", for you, means climbing something relatively easy (for you), or at most, climbing something hard that you have ruthlessly wired. In short, it seems to mean climbing something where, unless you do something really stupid, you will succeed, and it shows in your confidence and competence while climbing. If you mean something different, do please tell.
Anyway, that's by no means a universal definition of "doing it right".
Now I want to clarify one thing. I talked about how much climbing "on the edge" means to me. And it does - I love it, and I need it. But I don't want to give the impression that that's the *only* thing worth doing. In fact, I'm way too much of a wuss to be able to bite off those big objectives on more than special occasions. I guess you could say that it's only sometimes that the rat needs a full meal. The rest of the time I can keep it relatively sated with little dribs and drabs.
I was joking about the spiders and wetspots. Once again no one is reading what Im writing, they are all assuming and jumping to yell noob. And if you guys are so good and make all of these super hard routes look easy, why don't you go get sponsered?
I don't think anyone is jumping on you and calling you a n00b. If that's how you are reading it, maybe you should look inside for reasons.
I read what you said, and it was 'i don't flail much, unless there is a spider, or a wet spot, or a rusty piton'. Sorry for not understanding a joke in it and responding as if you were serious.
And the key in what I wrote was hard FOR ME routes. It doesn't mean much in absolute difficulty level. I have said earlier, that everyone who wants to work upward through the grades HAS to face that feeling of being out of your comfort zone, and learn to work though it. At what level does it happen is not important. You don't have to want it. Your way is your way. My way is my way. Both are right for the appropriate person.
I think I know what you mean ... there are these days when you try something hard and it's an all out war, and you have to sweat and grunt and scream and curse and every move feels iffy and you're out of control ... and, well the only thing that gets you to the top is a continual push to fight. Sometimes I'm in the mood to deal with that and sometimes I'd rather just style the easier grade. I have moods and I have moods.
But I have to say the best of all is when I had the good fortune to style the harder grade. Those remarkable times when you can have it all: both the style and the hard grade. It hasn't happened much, but some of my hardest climbs went this way. Mostly style and not much fight at all.
(This post was edited by yanqui on Feb 3, 2010, 4:52 PM)
I was joking about the spiders and wetspots. Once again no one is reading what Im writing, they are all assuming and jumping to yell noob. And if you guys are so good and make all of these super hard routes look easy, why don't you go get sponsered?
I don't think anyone is jumping on you and calling you a n00b. If that's how you are reading it, maybe you should look inside for reasons.
I read what you said, and it was 'i don't flail much, unless there is a spider, or a wet spot, or a rusty piton'. Sorry for not understanding a joke in it and responding as if you were serious.
And the key in what I wrote was hard FOR ME routes. It doesn't mean much in absolute difficulty level. I have said earlier, that everyone who wants to work upward through the grades HAS to face that feeling of being out of your comfort zone, and learn to work though it. At what level does it happen is not important. You don't have to want it. Your way is your way. My way is my way. Both are right for the appropriate person.
To get beyond journeywoman and into expert category one must make 'working out of the comfort zone' a comfort zone.
Yes?
that has been my experience and definitely with the truly good climbers I have been blessed to climb with, they were indeed inside their zone when pushing at the edges of it.
This mental capacity is not limited by style - I've seen the same people consistently push sport grades, trad grades, bouuldering and most amazing of all, ground up first ascents.
The strongest minds I have ever known, really. People I'd want in the trenches with me in combat... can keep their shit together!
I made the poll cause I thought it was interesting, yet here I am again with someone calling me noob.
Obviously I think it's interesting, too, which is why I'm posting.
Anyway, I wonder why you think I'm calling you a noob? I never said anything like that. I said your posts read like someone who hasn't spent much time pushing herself out of her comfort zone. And didn't you confirm as much?
I can only risk falls now in carefully controlled situations. So climbing at my limit means something quite different than it did 10, 20, 30 years ago
Cheers DMT
When you get really old (I've got 10+ years on DMT) its even more then not wanting to risk a fall. There are certain moves - dynos, cross throughs, etc - that hurt when I do them and hurt more the next day. I'll save those for Gabe's the sh*t's on the line scenerio.
But those type of moves I equate with "just barely making it at my limit". Style - to me - means doing moves that may be strenuous, may be committing (Gabe's scenerio) but ones that I can do without it hurting.
Succeeding on a hard climb often requires the climber to cycle through episodic oscillations- they must fluctuate between sets of meticulously controlled moves that are characterized by clever body English and the conservation of energy followed by, and insanely punctuated with, passages that mandate animal go- for- broke effort. The harder the grade, the requirements for both precise technique and brute effort increase. Climbing at your personal maximal difficulty level has its own rewards, although it may not be beautiful.
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