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orangekyak
Dec 13, 2002, 4:57 PM
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I think sport climbers are dissed by trad climbers. I think it happens for a couple reasons.
Many sport climbers come across as being pretty arrogant. Climbing technically hard terrain definitely commands respect. But it is my opinion, and apparently that of many others as well, that technically difficult sport is not in the same ballpark as hard trad. Some people are an exception, but I think for most of us this is the case.
The easy access of sport climbing, the quick learning curve to leading 5.10 sport vs. moderate trad for any slightly-ambitious athlete, make it easy for those who have invested time, effort and savings into becoming knowledgeable, athletic and able to take an ethical high ground to put down sport climbers.
When I started climbing I figured "it's just rock, it can handle some bolts." But (in a relatively short time, mind you,) the more I climb and more people I meet, the less difference I see between climbers and everyone else. This is scary to me, especially when I see the way people erratically drive cars, overconsume everything they can afford (and more) and treat each other like crap. This translates to me as erratic climbing practices, abusing resources at the crag, and not respecting each other and those who climbed before us.
But I still see a difference in attitude from those who climb just sport to those who have caught the trad bug. And others have apparently seen it too - sportos are viewed as irresponsible, capricious and unaware of their actions in light og the traditions of climbing. There are definitely traddys who actually ARE irresponsible, capricious and unaware but in the end how you're treated and thought of is going to be based on generalizations, at least until they go out of style.
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camhead
Dec 13, 2002, 5:26 PM
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wait, orange... are you saying that you are supposed to "work up" to 5.10 trad? oops, that's what I've been doing wrong.
on the sport vs. trad thang, they certainly do compliment each other. Observe the case of "Crack of Doom" at City of Rocks, Idaho. It is a beautiful fingers to hands granite crack, but to get to it requires one to pull off some v4-ish moves for the first twenty feet.
This keeps many of the old traddies off of the route (probably the same traddies that diss sport-os). Conversely, not many sport climbers do the route either, because the crack takes some serious balls.
honestly, I think that most climbers who diss another type of climbing are just afraid of it. I love both sport and trad, and do both a lot. However, I talk $#!& on aid. Why? Because i am not any good at it! hehe.
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bwnco
Dec 13, 2002, 5:35 PM
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In referance to " Humans f*ck up everything"
There biggest f*ck up is bolting trad routes. I dont know about the rest of you but im to damn lazy to pound away on rock when I can simply slip a piece in!...Go Figure??
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orangekyak
Dec 13, 2002, 5:41 PM
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nope, cam, i didn't say that.
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holmeslovesguinness
Dec 13, 2002, 5:49 PM
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What's funny is the original post (which was deleted by the poster) wasn't really about trad climbers dissing sport climbers per se. I don't remember the whole post, but here's a bit that I replied to:
not all people have trad gear so does this mean they shouldn't be allowed to place a bolt there because i can put my #2.5 camalot two inches to the right?
It's a relevant question. I love climbing both sport and trad, I see nothing wrong with bolted routes. But I personally think that bolting should be judicious - you should only place bolts where they are absolutely needed for safety. Didn't 'trad' climbing get started as a response to the damage being caused by climbing with pitons and such? I don't consider bolting to be in the same league as bashing in pitons over and over on a route, but it still makes a permanant impact on the rock.
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radistrad
Dec 13, 2002, 5:53 PM
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Don't bolt near cracks. Its bad. There is no reason to do so. If you can not afford the gear, sell the bike and buy some cams. If you cant place the gear, LEARN. If your scared, stay home.
Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing, Its easy to clip a bolt, its not as easy to selectg and set a nut. Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy".
However it is easier to carry 12 draws to a climb than to carry a full rack and two ropes. Maybe the sport climbers have something here.
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jt512
Dec 13, 2002, 7:13 PM
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Quote:
Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing,
Baloney. Sport climbing does not require less skill than crack climbing, though it does require fewer skills. In sport climbing you don't need to know how to place gear, route find, self-rescue, find the descent, keep your head together on a runout, etc. But it doesn't take less skill. In sport climbing, the moves are harder and, contrary to what you've said below, less intuitive.
Quote:
Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy".
Your vision of what sport climbing entails is too limited. There is a hell of a lot more to it than "pulling down on holds." As an example, look at the first hard move on Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug.
I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-12-13 11:14 ]
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leaverbiner
Dec 13, 2002, 7:23 PM
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Here's how I sum up "radistrad":
(your best whiney voice) "My climbing is harder than yours becuase I have to fumble through my gear while hanging on 5.8 jugs after doing strenuous 5.8 moves . . . I have to carry more gear in to the crag, oh my aching back . . . I can't pull hard so I get nowhere in sport climbing, instead I'll diss others just because they find enjoyment in a different aspect of climbing and can probably pull harder than I can."
Give it a rest . . . Trad is not inherently "harder" than sport, it may require more confidence and better control of one's fears, but you're not some badass because you Trad climb. A great many people enjoy climbing for the PHYSICAL nature of the activity. Thus, people boulder and sport climb so they can push their physical limits while keeping the potential for injury within reasonable limits. You may be saying to yourself, that Leaverbiner is a panzy sport climber that's none no Trad" well, you're wrong . . . I don't do much, but I do some occassionally. . . why so little? because it scares the crap out of me and therefore I either don't enjoy it becasue I spend the whole time being scared, or I resign myself to doing routes that physically are a joke (things I would solo). So, am I less of a person because I clip bolts to have fun? I don't think so. Are you a stronger climber than me? I DOUBT IT! Do I care how hard you or anyone else climbs? Not in the least! Do I hope that everyone can find enjoyment, in thier own way, in climbing . . . EXACTLY!!
[ This Message was edited by: leaverbiner on 2002-12-13 12:38 ]
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flash5twelve
Dec 13, 2002, 7:30 PM
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Jay spews beta:
Quote:Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug.
DAMN! There goes my onsight!
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jt512
Dec 13, 2002, 7:39 PM
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Quote:
Jay spews beta:
...
I knew it was a bad idea to teach you how to quote, Greg.
-Jay
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flash5twelve
Dec 13, 2002, 7:52 PM
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Mwa ha ha ha ha!
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wildtrail
Dec 13, 2002, 8:00 PM
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Because it is stupid?
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jt512
Dec 13, 2002, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Because it is stupid?
I refer you to the post by Leaverbiner.
-Jay
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calamity_chk
Dec 14, 2002, 12:00 AM
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/ducks her head in again/
Quote:http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/
Dude, the pipeline effin rules !
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pbjosh
Dec 14, 2002, 12:36 AM
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Jay,
Quote:
I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret.
Jay, just as you disagree with sport climbing being easier/more intuitive, I'm calling bull$#!& all over the above quote.
I'd like you to try California Night (11b fingers) at Woodson and see how intuitive you think it is and what you do for sequence.
Give Pigpen at jtree a try as well and let me know if you get a good sequence first go.
I also remain firmly convinced that there is more technique involved in crack climbing than in face or friction climbing. A beginner can come to understand face climbing relatively quickly and friction climbing incredibly quickly (never mind fancy moves like roses, drop knees or heel hooks) - it's more intuitive to grab a hold (including a gaston or sidepull or undercling) and pull on it, than it is to do a proper hand, finger or fist jam. Getting into greater difficulty, most people, I conjecture, will find it a lot easier to learn to dropknee or heelhook than to learn to leavittate, leg bar or ring lock. Considering the amount of time I spend crack climbing vs. sport climbing I can guarantee you that leavittation is a hell of lot harder to work out than drop knees, roses, heel hooks, double gastons, bicycle moves, whatever you want...
In fact, I'd wager there's more technique in offwidthing than there is in all of face, friction, and crack-up-to-fist-size climbing together.
Witness the first-time-climber who is presented a 5.9 or 5.10a on the Stream Wall vs. the first-time-climber who is presented Sacharer Cracker, Moby Dick, Championship Wrestling, Damper, Enter the Dragon, etc... hell, witness me or you on the above choices
josh
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camhead
Dec 14, 2002, 1:23 AM
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I agree with the above post. crack technique is much harder to learn than sport moves. it comes less naturally. you don't think so, look at how many sportos at the gym can't pull cracks; its a lot more than the tradddies that can't crank crimpers, I'll tell you that much.
Again, though, they're both valid. there are a couple sport climbs I know that you can get hand jam rests on, which are tons less strenuous than hanging off of any jug.
learn your crack technique, %!#@#.
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jt512
Dec 14, 2002, 6:24 AM
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Josh,
I agree with you that entry-level face climbs are more intuitive than entry-level cracks. That's why entry-level sport climbing gets boring pretty quickly. At the higher levels of sport climbing, the technique becomes far more complex than any crack climb -- that's not to say that it's physically harder, just more complex. There is nothing intuitive about drop-knees, heel hooks, deadpoints, and twist locks. Its greater complexity and variety of movement is one of the great appeals of sport climbing over trad to those of us who are attracted to that type of climbing.
-Jay
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ronamick
Dec 14, 2002, 6:42 AM
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Back in the 70's, 5.11 was as hard as it got.
5.11 had just been seperated into A,B,C,D when all of a sudden we hear about a 5.12 route by this guy Jardine in Yosemite. We are all thinking that this guy is the best in the world, only to find out that he is hanging on the rope!
It's not that he was doing that, it's that he wasn't copping to it. This deceit was happening locally too. When we brought up the point that one needs to be honest about the style of a climb if one is going to compete with others, we ran into what became the sport climber's stock line - that anybody who had a problem with how they climbed was either jealous, unable or uncool... Childish crap. It has to do with honesty.
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roninthorne
Dec 14, 2002, 3:31 PM
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lotta spew here, lotta vectoring into BS and non-sequitors. I'll leave that to your local version of Lord Slime to deal with. But I do take exception to this comment:
"...the sport climber's stock line - that anybody who had a problem with how they climbed was either jealous, unable or uncool..."
Now, I AM a sport climber... and a trad climber... and an aid climber... and a toproper. Love to boulder, and even the gym's an okay place to pull when the weather sucks, you want some new company, or you wanna spend an evening seeing the major pros and cons of wearing spandex and sport bras....
But I digress... point is, IT'S ALL CLIMBING!!! And among the sport climbers I know (who, like myself also enjoy every other form of the sport to some degree or another), using a line or displaying an attitude like the one quoted would be the fastest path to ostracization (being viewed as a poser, for the less literate spewmasters out there).
My "stock" line has been "If you don't like something about my route, please tell me and I'll either explain why it's like that or see what can be done to fix it."
It is only when that meets with an attitude-filled response that I fall back to stock line #2: "There are plenty of other things to climb in the world... have at it."
Any grief given sport climbers by trads STRICTLY BECAUSE THE CLIP BOLTS amounts to nothing more than the age old "MY Style is better than Your Style".
You can try to lead the discussion down the primrose path of bolted cracks and rock defacement and increasing crowds, but these are all really avoiding the issues, and rarely if ever produce compromise or deeper understanding.
If you stripped all the bolted cracks.. no, forget that... if you stripped ALL the bolted ROUTES, there would probably be just as many people out climbing again in a few years. And this time you'd have nothing to rag on 'cuz they'd be placing gear JUST LIKE YOU!!
Of course, some folks can always find something to complain about, so I doubt even these drastic measures would bring peace.
Just the sight of newcomers sends some folks into a froth.
Too bad.
They are there because that is what the media and mass culture is selling them and that's what is currently en vogue. Build a bridge and get over it... new styles and faces are here to stay.
An understanding of basic sociology goes a long way in seeing that it is human nature- to break the rules, reach beyond your boundaries and explore the unknown- not some certain style of climbing, that is responsible for many of the climbing community's newest woes.
And it is the jealousy and possessiveness of that nature that is responsible for most of its oldest arguments, as well.
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ljthawk
Dec 14, 2002, 7:17 PM
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Do want to add one more point, cracks aren't the only features that take natural protection. The phrase, "shouldn't put a bolt next to a crack" or "don't bolt a crack" should really say "shouldn't put a bolt next to a "good" gear placement" or "don't bolt a line that is safely naturally protected with gear". True, cracks are the most obvious and prominent trad lines, but not he only.
Flame on.
L.J.
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vulgarian
Dec 15, 2002, 12:48 AM
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Gimme a break, it's all good. Whether I'm spotting the perfect slot for a nut or a sparkling new hanger - I'm always glad to see it.
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vulgarian
Dec 15, 2002, 12:51 AM
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What does suck is calling a hang a redpoint or placing bolts every meter. This is especially bothersome on overhanging routes where the fall is clean.
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mreardon
Dec 17, 2002, 1:00 AM
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JT - gotta' disagree with you on some of this. Higher end sport climbing is nowhere near as complex as higher end trad. Both have the same endurance and power issues. But trad has way more physical and mental complexity. Trad will use sport moves, whle sport climbs rarely use trad moves. For example, I use drop knees and heel hooks on all kinds of trad routes, but can't remember the last time I used a foot jam or fingerlock on a sport route. As for the mental, in sport you only have to worry about clipping the bolt. Trad you have to worry about what gear, where, and how much? Completely different animal. But in the end it is all climbing. Just don't equate the two. Each is better for their own reasons.
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kalcario
Dec 17, 2002, 1:41 AM
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I have posted a lot of pictures of single pitch limestone sport routes in Europe and other places on this site. When you stand at the base of one of those things, I don't care if you stare at it for a year - you'll still have *no idea* what you're gonna be doing up there until you get up there. Now stand at the base of an Indian Creek or Yosemite style single pitch crack route. Unless you're blind or dumb you can tell if it's layback or straight in, fingers, hands, wide, etc. I remember a comment that trad master Steve Hong made in a R&I interview some years ago, he said that the stuff you have to do on a hard crack climb "is trivial" compared to a hard sport route. Being a devout sport climber now but coming from a trad background,I have to tell y'all that placing your own pro is really not that big of a deal. If you are adept at placing gear, and you trust it, than there is really not that much difference between that and clipping bolts. There really is no need to regard wiggling in your own gear with this sort of breathless awe that I see on this site fairly regularly...
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maddie
Dec 17, 2002, 2:12 AM
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I think there are bigger environmental issues than putting bolts in rock! (not that im saying it isnt an issue)
maybe if people could understand how great outdoor activities are and how beutiful the wilderness is they would look after the environment better..
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