|
|
|
|
guyzo
May 3, 2010, 11:15 PM
Post #1 of 32
(9983 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2003
Posts: 37
|
This is just a note to Gentle Ben, and his wife. And to Eric Wolfe and his GF skippy.
All others should take a second and think about new roots and squeeze jobs.
Good job, your quest for new roots and Fame have brought our beloved Echo Cliffs to the attention of the NPS.
Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman.
What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers.
I spoke with the MAN this am and the removal had nothing to do with litter. The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants.
For the first time in my life I agree with the NPS. They did the correct thing IMHO.
So maybe next time you want to do a new root you may wish to consider some things. Things like "will this be a good root?"
or "am I destroying something of value".
You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it.
We are very lucky to have good rangers in the Santa Monica Mts. They are climbers, they know all about the place, they took out your gear.
This time we didn't get a knee jerk reaction to just close the place down. Next time we (the climbing community) might not be so fortunate.
Guy Keesee
(This post was edited by guyzo on May 3, 2010, 11:22 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
May 3, 2010, 11:25 PM
Post #2 of 32
(9964 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
route.
|
|
|
|
|
patmay81
May 4, 2010, 12:01 AM
Post #3 of 32
(9911 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2006
Posts: 1081
|
guyzo wrote: The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
May 4, 2010, 12:28 AM
Post #4 of 32
(9883 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
guyzo wrote: This is just a note to Gentle Ben, and his wife. And to Eric Wolfe and his GF skippy. All others should take a second and think about new roots and squeeze jobs. Good job, your quest for new roots and Fame have brought our beloved Echo Cliffs to the attention of the NPS. Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman. What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. I spoke with the MAN this am and the removal had nothing to do with litter. The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants. For the first time in my life I agree with the NPS. They did the correct thing IMHO. So maybe next time you want to do a new root you may wish to consider some things. Things like "will this be a good root?" or "am I destroying something of value". You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it. We are very lucky to have good rangers in the Santa Monica Mts. They are climbers, they know all about the place, they took out your gear. This time we didn't get a knee jerk reaction to just close the place down. Next time we (the climbing community) might not be so fortunate. Guy Keesee |
|
|
|
|
sidepull
May 4, 2010, 12:35 AM
Post #5 of 32
(9872 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
I was wondering if there was some sort of e e cummings styled deeper meaning to using "root" or it was just interweb troll-dom.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 4, 2010, 1:20 AM
Post #6 of 32
(9824 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
guyzo wrote: This is just a note to Gentle Ben, and his wife. And to Eric Wolfe and his GF skippy. All others should take a second and think about new roots and squeeze jobs. Good job, your quest for new roots and Fame have brought our beloved Echo Cliffs to the attention of the NPS. Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman. What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers. I spoke with the MAN this am and the removal had nothing to do with litter. The roots were removed because of the wholesale destruction of plants. For the first time in my life I agree with the NPS. They did the correct thing IMHO. So maybe next time you want to do a new root you may wish to consider some things. Things like "will this be a good root?" or "am I destroying something of value". You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it. We are very lucky to have good rangers in the Santa Monica Mts. They are climbers, they know all about the place, they took out your gear. This time we didn't get a knee jerk reaction to just close the place down. Next time we (the climbing community) might not be so fortunate. Guy Keesee
I was worried that something like this was going to happen. The area was once closed due to excessive noise. We're lucky to have it. The area most certainly does not need a plethora of generic 5.9s. We've lost Williamson. We can't afford to lose another major sport climbing destination. Let's stop the bolting there already.
Which routes were taken out?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 4, 2010, 1:32 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
foodgeek
May 4, 2010, 2:47 AM
Post #7 of 32
(9775 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2009
Posts: 36
|
jt512 wrote: guyzo wrote: ...the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman... ...Which routes were taken out? Jay
I'm going to guess Mystic River and Bunnyman.
|
|
|
|
|
guyzo
May 4, 2010, 3:04 PM
Post #8 of 32
(9667 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2003
Posts: 37
|
Route = a climb
Root = male anatomy. As in: Look at my "root"- isn't it nice?
or
"Please go and DO my root."
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
May 4, 2010, 3:38 PM
Post #9 of 32
(9631 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
You guys need to be doing some serious one on one and group talks IMO.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on May 4, 2010, 3:51 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
May 4, 2010, 3:54 PM
Post #10 of 32
(9602 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
I for one thought mystic river was a good route (if I'm picturing the right one). Certainly not a squeeze job as it was the only route on a stand alone formation. Seems like it was the longest route in the grotto, too.
I thought the development work was a bit more heavy handed down at easy street.
I haven't been out there in a while (4 or 5 months) so maybe more recent work is causing probs?
|
|
|
|
|
bennydh
May 4, 2010, 6:25 PM
Post #11 of 32
(9534 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2005
Posts: 368
|
WTF is the point of an FA if no one will ever be able to access your route afterward? Egos?
... idiots
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
May 4, 2010, 7:26 PM
Post #12 of 32
(9469 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
For the record, I've been in contact with Ben about this. He was down in the Grotto when the rangers were there and volunteered to remove the routes in question.
There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and "Puffing Hunchback."
The signs went up after the bolt removal.
I hope this serves as a good reminder to all who use the area that we are being watched, and we need to respect the wishes of those who so graciously allow us to enjoy the area.
Please do your part to keep the area clean.
Thanks!
- Louie
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
May 4, 2010, 7:33 PM
Post #13 of 32
(9456 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
bolt every 3 feet sound like a sport climbing.
is that right ?
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
May 4, 2010, 7:59 PM
Post #14 of 32
(9420 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
socalbolter wrote: For the record, I've been in contact with Ben about this. He was down in the Grotto when the rangers were there and volunteered to remove the routes in question. There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and "Puffing Hunchback." The signs went up after the bolt removal. I hope this serves as a good reminder to all who use the area that we are being watched, and we need to respect the wishes of those who so graciously allow us to enjoy the area. Please do your part to keep the area clean. Thanks! - Louie
Emphasis mine. Sounds like the problem's been solved.
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
May 4, 2010, 8:02 PM
Post #15 of 32
(9408 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
While I haven't climbed regularly at Echo for years, I would be extremely sad to see us lose the privilege of climbing there.
Let this be a lesson to all of us (regardless of where we climb) to be good area stewards and to make sure that any interaction with non-climbers and land managers is viewed as a positive one.
The future of this area and many others rests squarely in our own hands.
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
May 5, 2010, 7:23 PM
Post #16 of 32
(9299 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
Just got off the phone with the Head Ranger for the Santa Monica Mountains office of the NPS. He called me regarding this issue as he and I had worked together to secure climber access at Echo Cliffs back in the beginning stages of its development. He is a very reasonable person and operates with a pro-climbing stance, as long as NPS concerns and restrictions are met with and respected.
He relayed the series of events to me as they occurred to date (much of which has been discussed here and elsewhere online already). The gist of it is that there were routes added in The Grotto whose development either included removal of mosses and other vegetation, or locations with close proximity to the endangered Marcescent dudleya plant.
He did mention that he and other NPS officials ran into Ben Chapman and that he walked with them and was very respectful and volunteered to remove the bolts from the routes in question.
There are currently temporary signs in place at these sections of cliff, and permanent signage is being made now. These signs will designate sections of cliff that are closed to all climbing activities. These signs will be installed by volunteer climbers, working directly with him. The sections of cliff that will be closed to climbing are the cliffs on both sides of The Grotto as follows:
Upstream walls from the arete of Game Boy on the south side of the creek.
Upstream walls from Xanadu on the north side of the creek.
All other Grotto routes are fine and will remain open for climbing, as will the remainder of Echo Cliffs.
As mentioned before, we should feel fortunate that we have NPS officials in this area that are willing to work with climbers. We should also (all of us) re-commit ourselves to keeping our climbing areas clean and abiding by whatever few limitations have been placed on us.
Specific to Echo, please remember:
No trash left behind.
No dogs at the crag.
No fires.
No overnight camping at the crag or parking areas.
No cross-country travel.
No climbing in closed areas.
Thank you one and all - enjoy yourselves out there, and be safe.
- Louie
|
|
|
|
|
guyzo
May 5, 2010, 7:49 PM
Post #17 of 32
(9273 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2003
Posts: 37
|
Louie. Thank you for the info and the update.
I reckon if you need to use a GIANT WIRE BRUSH, a Saw, and a CROWBAR to prep your new one, some people might object to you and your climbs.
Talking nicely and looking for some restraint didn't do a darn thing. It took the NPS to step in for this person to stop putting down climbs.
We are so lucky we are not shut out, like at Willie. And just like Willie, it's easy to close down but it's almost imposable to get it reopened after it gets on the radar.
Guy Keesee
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
May 5, 2010, 7:55 PM
Post #18 of 32
(9268 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Of course I'm not there and haven't the first clue... but your version sure does sound a lot more sinister than Louie's.
|
|
|
|
|
guyzo
May 6, 2010, 6:38 PM
Post #19 of 32
(9179 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2003
Posts: 37
|
To BillCoe, Tried to have one on one talk many times... was told to go f-myself. (and I was nice too)
In other parts of our nation, serious damage might have been done to vehicles.
I believe in peace and understanding.
It all good now that the routes have been removed.
Any idea how long it will be till the moss and flowers grow back??
late
|
|
|
|
|
tyler
May 6, 2010, 7:11 PM
Post #20 of 32
(9148 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 65
|
guyzo wrote: You know Ben, it's very poor style to put in generic bolted climbs every 3 feet. Climbs that have no character, just a climb, just like the one right next to it.
Well said.
|
|
|
|
|
edge
May 6, 2010, 7:15 PM
Post #21 of 32
(9141 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
|
socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie
I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect?
This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 6, 2010, 7:44 PM
Post #22 of 32
(9119 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal.
No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
May 6, 2010, 7:53 PM
Post #23 of 32
(9100 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image]
|
|
|
|
|
edge
May 7, 2010, 1:50 PM
Post #24 of 32
(9022 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
|
jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay
Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym.
(This post was edited by edge on May 7, 2010, 1:59 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 7, 2010, 5:14 PM
Post #25 of 32
(8954 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
edge wrote: jt512 wrote: edge wrote: socalbolter wrote: There were actually five routes that were removed: "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and " Puffing Hunchback." - Louie I found this picture in the routes database. Is the rock so chossy that natural gear would be suspect? This sure screams out as a candidate for bolt removal. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/328500-largest_2.jpg[/image] No, it doesn't. It's a sport crag. Jay Yes, one that caught the attention of NPS rangers because it was being treated like a gym.
Edge, there are on the order of 1500 bolts at Echo Cliffs. The NPS obviously was not reacting to the ~8 bolts on this route. They were reacting to the presence of an endangered plant species near the route.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
