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redlude97
May 12, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back.
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karmiclimber
May 12, 2010, 6:00 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: A-Bowl wrote: you're so off dude. I always use my grigri when trad climbing for multiple reasons: 1: if you climb seriously.. trad pitches are usually long and often out of sight from the belayer allowing for moments of lax attention in conjunction with huge wippers... i always want the security of an autolock 2: Big wippers means big air for belayers which creates wild swings and rock slamming... again autolock 3: I eat.. snap pictures.. whatever all without jepardizing safety... remember big trad climbs... time and comfort are key 4: When the leader is close to the belay it creates a lot of chaos (leader hitting belayer) and its better to have a stiffer catch and control of the situation than the softer catch of all your options. As the leader gets further from the belay a soft catch becomes less important the more rope that is out making up for it. Note: I use a grigri which i believe has a little softer catch than the cinch. 5: My partners and i simul rap using grigris... again faster... and harder to do single line raps with an atc... we both carry atcs for times when simulling is not cool.. Whatever though.. keep making life hard for yourself but don't talk other people into antiquated methods. if you're using a grigri or cinch because you cant stay focused on belaying, then you shouldnt be belaying in the first place. if you're using the device because you cannot hold a fall and need the device to do it for you, then again, you shouldnt be belaying in the first place.
Whatever dude. Sometimes I like to eat a sammach while I "belay." Or I forget I am belaying due to inhalation of the wizzyweed. Quit harshin' my mellow old dude-ski. Being "on point" during long belays is for the squares.
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Gmburns2000
May 12, 2010, 6:05 PM
Post #53 of 78
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jakedatc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back. Hmm. i find that lowering folks you, doc and jay's size to be less than half open. folks my size i need to open it more.
I agree that heavier people are easier to lower than lighter people, but I had a bitch of a time lowering myself on one when I was setting a route recently in Colorado, so much so that I was relieved to be told that there was a trap door with a ladder I could use instead (I honestly wasn't sure if I was going to drop myself).
In reply to: as for the pointy handle i put 3 fingers on the handle and my thumb on the pivot and it allows for adjusting how fast it goes through.
I find this hurts my wrist because of where my thumb is in relation to my fingers.
In reply to: i will concede that lowering takes alot more practice than a gri gri since you can't just crank it wide open and treat it like an ATC.. Once you work it out though it's not much different.
I'm sure that more experience is the key, and I bet I'd get much better at it if I used one fairly regularly, but out of the gate I think that lowering is much easier (more ergonomic maybe?) with a grigri and feeding isn't that much better with a Cinch.
Still, as Angry said, it's a tool and how we use it makes up for how easy it is to use.
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 6:12 PM
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I didn't say easier.. just have to pull on the handle less. I find it is a lot easier to lower smaller climbers since the speed increase when pulling the handle more is less pronounced.
either way i don't much care what people use as long as they know how to use it and don't short rope me on lead and don't give me fast drops lowering off.
also to get back to gabe and edges comment about soft catching.. the way i belay with a cinch it would be just as easy to feed out a bit of slack as it would with an ATC. I don't have a lot of experience on sketchy gear so perhaps someone will have to fill in how else you're supposed to soften things up in the microseconds you have to react in a short fall.
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Gmburns2000
May 12, 2010, 6:14 PM
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redlude97 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: The two things I don't like about the Cinch have to do with lowering. The first is that I can't stand the pointy handle that digs into my palm when lowering. The second is kind of a result of the handle in that I find it difficult to lower climbers sometimes without really cranking the handle back. Curious, what technique are using to lower? If you are using the technique Malcolm recommends in his instructional video where you come over the top with your left hand, apply your thumb to the pivot point of the lever and pull on the lever, your palm shouldn't be used. If you are using your palm in the way I am thinking, the difficulty in lowering i think is due to the way the cinch rotates if the pivot point isn't pressed against, resulting in inefficient transfer of torque to the lever requiring significantly more palm force to lower.
As I said to Jake, I find that technique hurts my wrist. I feel as if I have to get behind or under the device more in order to keep my wrist from feeling strained. Of course, changing the angle, as you noted, makes things a bit more difficult.
So maybe that's just me.
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 6:22 PM
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perhaps your wrists are just the wekesauze and you should just give up
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rockgirlCO
May 12, 2010, 6:33 PM
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I'm an ATC to Cinch convert for sport or gym. (I still use an ATC for rapping while climbing sport.) I love how much smoother I can feed rope. I love having the back up when someone wants to hang a while. I love the control of lowering. I love the reliability of the lock down for falls (no slippage). Unlocking it -- when both me and the leader are weighting the rope or the leader has pulled rope suddenly -- use to be a problem. In the beginning it was a steep learning curve to figure out how to deal with that. Then I had a process I used for a year. Just recently I learned an uber easy way to "unlock": just push the guide hand palm against the colored metal piece; brake hand never leaves its position on the rope. My love affair is now complete. I see no short-comings. Again this is just for sport and indoor climbing. I would not use it on multipitches where any rapping is required because it is a second, weighty device to take up the rock; for that I use an ATC for belaying and then have it available for rapping.
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caughtinside
May 12, 2010, 6:52 PM
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edge wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yep, luckily i never used a gri gri for lead belaying so i didn't have to break any habits. but the Cinch is much more intuitive i think and easier to use. not to mention it is about half the size to hold and lighter. hell i use it for trad lead and bringing up 2nd now and my reverso is pretty much demoted to rap only Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin'
"Hi, I've been doing the same thing for 30 years and it works so why change. What's a computer?"
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caughtinside
May 12, 2010, 6:53 PM
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edge wrote: currupt4130 wrote: edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' Care to elaborate? Sure. Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics. I don't like that. For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you. I don't like that either. I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user. And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods. And I know Jake can...
Well, you are Rong on both counts, but that's not really surprising.
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hafilax
May 12, 2010, 6:54 PM
Post #61 of 78
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caughtinside wrote: edge wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yep, luckily i never used a gri gri for lead belaying so i didn't have to break any habits. but the Cinch is much more intuitive i think and easier to use. not to mention it is about half the size to hold and lighter. hell i use it for trad lead and bringing up 2nd now and my reverso is pretty much demoted to rap only Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' "Hi, I've been doing the same thing for 30 years and it works so why change. What's a computer?"
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caughtinside
May 12, 2010, 6:55 PM
Post #62 of 78
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robdotcalm wrote: I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing. «Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892) and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath). The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard (25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second. It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing» Cheers, Rob.calm
Does aid climbing count as mountaineering or 'adventure' climbing?
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cracklover
May 12, 2010, 7:02 PM
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jakedatc wrote: also to get back to gabe and edges comment about soft catching.. the way i belay with a cinch it would be just as easy to feed out a bit of slack as it would with an ATC.
I think you have a different definition of soft catch than I do.
In reply to: I don't have a lot of experience on sketchy gear so perhaps someone will have to fill in how else you're supposed to soften things up in the microseconds you have to react in a short fall.
The classic method with a tube device is to provide less force on the brake strand, allowing your hand to get pulled in a little. This requires practice. With a gri-gri or cinch, you jump at just the right moment. Again, this requires practice.
GO
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 7:10 PM
Post #64 of 78
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cracklover wrote: jakedatc wrote: also to get back to gabe and edges comment about soft catching.. the way i belay with a cinch it would be just as easy to feed out a bit of slack as it would with an ATC. I think you have a different definition of soft catch than I do. In reply to: I don't have a lot of experience on sketchy gear so perhaps someone will have to fill in how else you're supposed to soften things up in the microseconds you have to react in a short fall. The classic method with a tube device is to provide less force on the brake strand, allowing your hand to get pulled in a little. This requires practice. With a gri-gri or cinch, you jump at just the right moment. Again, this requires practice. GO
Well i get pulled off the ground without having to jump on just about every lead fall i catch so i'm covered there. If i have to be tight to a belay on trad and good gear is not apparent off the belay then i will use the reverso. good?
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hafilax
May 12, 2010, 7:23 PM
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People keep putting the Cinch in the same category as the GriGri when it comes to locking up. It is designed to be in between the GriGri and a tube device as far as max braking force.
Trango website wrote: On smaller diameter ropes, or when holding falls that generate extremely high loads (in excess of factor 1) the Cinch acts dynamically, reducing shock loads to the belay system. |
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 7:42 PM
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hafilax wrote: People keep putting the Cinch in the same category as the GriGri when it comes to locking up. It is designed to be in between the GriGri and a tube device as far as max braking force. Trango website wrote: On smaller diameter ropes, or when holding falls that generate extremely high loads (in excess of factor 1) the Cinch acts dynamically, reducing shock loads to the belay system.
shhh bringing facts into this is just going to mess up the folks who are wrong 
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sspssp
May 12, 2010, 8:54 PM
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I'm basically with A-Bowl on this one. I multi-pitch trad belay with a cinch (and take an atc style device to raps).
I think the cinch is safer and more convienent for the reasons listed before such as: catching an out of sight fall, eating, adjusting clothing, untangling the rope, getting picked up and slammed into a wall, etc.
Should you be able to do all these things with an atc? Sure, a competent and attentive belayer can. But you can do all things with a hip belay. So why don't you guy's put your atcs down and just use hip belays? Could it be that the atc gives a more secure catch and allows a greater safety margin. HHhhmm. Ponder, ponder.
(This post was edited by sspssp on May 12, 2010, 8:54 PM)
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vegastradguy
May 12, 2010, 11:45 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: However, despite what Mal says, if I'm going to do any solo leading, I'd rather use a Cinch than a modified grigri.
actually, you really dont want to do this. the cinch is probably the worst device out there for solo leading- its lack of a spring means the device is always in the locked position. the two times i've roped soloed something with the cinch, i desperately wished i had remembered my grigri and swore never to do it again. the cinch is a GREAT belay device, but a terrible rope solo lead device. (great TR solo device, though, if used with a croll).
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Gmburns2000
May 13, 2010, 12:09 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: However, despite what Mal says, if I'm going to do any solo leading, I'd rather use a Cinch than a modified grigri. actually, you really dont want to do this. the cinch is probably the worst device out there for solo leading- its lack of a spring means the device is always in the locked position. the two times i've roped soloed something with the cinch, i desperately wished i had remembered my grigri and swore never to do it again. the cinch is a GREAT belay device, but a terrible rope solo lead device. (great TR solo device, though, if used with a croll).
well, the search continues then. it'd be nice if someone could finally make a product for this purpose (that could still be purchased, that is).
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socalclimber
May 13, 2010, 1:40 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: However, despite what Mal says, if I'm going to do any solo leading, I'd rather use a Cinch than a modified grigri. actually, you really dont want to do this. the cinch is probably the worst device out there for solo leading- its lack of a spring means the device is always in the locked position. the two times i've roped soloed something with the cinch, i desperately wished i had remembered my grigri and swore never to do it again. the cinch is a GREAT belay device, but a terrible rope solo lead device. (great TR solo device, though, if used with a croll). well, the search continues then. it'd be nice if someone could finally make a product for this purpose (that could still be purchased, that is).
Would the croll be used in the "chest" harness position?
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Gmburns2000
May 13, 2010, 1:44 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: However, despite what Mal says, if I'm going to do any solo leading, I'd rather use a Cinch than a modified grigri. actually, you really dont want to do this. the cinch is probably the worst device out there for solo leading- its lack of a spring means the device is always in the locked position. the two times i've roped soloed something with the cinch, i desperately wished i had remembered my grigri and swore never to do it again. the cinch is a GREAT belay device, but a terrible rope solo lead device. (great TR solo device, though, if used with a croll). well, the search continues then. it'd be nice if someone could finally make a product for this purpose (that could still be purchased, that is). Would the croll be used in the "chest" harness position?
I don't know what the Croll is. It'd be really nice to find something that didn't require a chest harness.
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socalclimber
May 13, 2010, 1:58 AM
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Most solo belay devices make use of a chest harness/sit harness to keep you upright in a fall.
The croll looks like an ascender without the handle. It is used by caver's and climber's alike.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on May 13, 2010, 2:07 AM)
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Gmburns2000
May 13, 2010, 2:02 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Most solo belay devices make use of a chest harness/sit harness to keep you upright in a fall.
I understand that, but what is a Croll?
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socalclimber
May 13, 2010, 2:10 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: socalclimber wrote: Most solo belay devices make use of a chest harness/sit harness to keep you upright in a fall. I understand that, but what is a Croll?
Here's a quick link. I think we posted on top of one another.
http://www.amazon.com/Petzl-Croll-Ascender-by/dp/B001UJGOYG
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Gmburns2000
May 13, 2010, 2:17 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: socalclimber wrote: Most solo belay devices make use of a chest harness/sit harness to keep you upright in a fall. I understand that, but what is a Croll? Here's a quick link. I think we posted on top of one another. http://www.amazon.com/...der-by/dp/B001UJGOYG
thanks.
not sure if it would need one or not, but I'm a bit leery of using anything with teeth like that. also, I haven't heard much of anyone using ascenders like that for self belay on lead. i've heard of people using them for TR, but not on lead.
anyway, I didn't mean for us to get off topic.
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