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markc
Jun 29, 2010, 3:57 PM
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billl7 wrote: Tipton wrote: I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3. There's quite a range in what one might call a "career" ... the guy who climbs all his life but only follows someone else one weekend a month ... the gal who climbs everyone weekend for five years and moves onto something else ... the guy who got layed off two years ago when the US economy took a dump and has quadrupled the amount of climbing since then compared to the previous four years.
Not for nothing, but I'd guess this is the Bill Wright who wrote the book on speed climbing (with Hans Florine). Bill is obviously aware of the risks, and making an informed choice to climb. As bill7 pointed out, climbing is different for each of us. It's up to us all to determine the degree of risk we're comfortable with. Before I judge others, I try to remember those moments in my own (very humble) climbing career when things could have gone bad. I question anyone if they think they're immune to an accident.
http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a
(This post was edited by markc on Jun 29, 2010, 4:00 PM)
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maldaly
Jun 29, 2010, 4:31 PM
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This thread is heading in an interesting direction. I like it. First off, let me say how glad I am that it appears that Tom will be okay. Second-guess Bill's actions up there all you want but the results speak for themselves: Tom is alive and on the road to a complete recovery. Nice work, Bill.
I think I might have posted this in the thread on the darkside accident but I think it's well worth re-posting here in light of the recent comments to this thread. It's the into to the warning that we have on our website. I think it says it all:
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Climbing and mountaineering activities, which include technical rock, snow, and ice climbing, backcountry skiing, general mountaineering and slacklining, combine many unique opportunities and choices to experience individual freedom and self-determination in our natural environment. An essential element of this expression of freedom through climbing and mountaineering is the acceptance of the many risks and dangers that are inherent in and integral to these activities.
The exercise of good judgment and common sense can help reduce these risks. In addition, the proper use of climbing and safety equipment can also help reduce these risks. However, such risks and dangers cannot be totally eliminated, even with the proper use of the climbing and safety equipment.
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Climb safe,
Mal
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flamer
Jun 29, 2010, 4:52 PM
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marc801 wrote: cracklover wrote: Second, that was a proud objective. Proud? 100 pitches in Eldo of all places with fixed descent lines and stashed water and food. Sounds more like a stunt.
So you'll be doing it next weekend then?
Since it would be such an easy "stunt" and all.....
josh
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onrockandice
Jun 29, 2010, 5:14 PM
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maldaly wrote: However, such risks and dangers cannot be totally eliminated, even with the proper use of the climbing and safety equipment. Climb safe, Mal
I believe that the excerpt above is the one that judges all of us every time we rope up. We all fear that situation. We all face it with stoic courage and bravery. We feel giddy when confronted with such moments that test us and find us worthy (we survive unscathed).
That statement is what makes every single last one of us love climbing because that statement says, "You are a human being. You have the right to assume these risks at your own discretion. You have a responsibility of due-diligence to prepare for these risks to the utmost degree that is possible. Your success/survival is a measure of your aptitude and luck. The rewards of such risks are indescribable. Nobody not able to venture into the same risks, at the same time could ever hope to judge you accurately with respect to choices made when confronted by these risks. We wish you all the best as you push your own personal limits while you enjoy...
The Freedom of the Hills!
Climb safe, pull hard and may the sun warm your way home.
I love it. Risk and reward in equal parts. Courage and fear in irrational quantities. In the end the survivors and the spectators may never know what befell those who ventured forward and paid with their lives. We hope that the price they paid was well spent in doing what they loved.
There is nothing else to be said. We are not able to judge accurately as we were not there. We are not able to speak with true authority because we don't have the fullest details. We only have the gray area that is neither the true or false testament to what transpired.
It's exciting and it calls us forward. I'm in. I'm all in. I accept those risks.
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majid_sabet
Jun 29, 2010, 5:15 PM
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This is just a beginning as climbing and climbers are entering in to a new dimension. I thought my buddy was fast for doing half dome in 2:30 min solo but then last week, someone did it in 2:00 hr. now its 100 pitches a day and tomorrow, it would 125 and so on.
Not even an accident or fatality will stop this madness.
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dingus
Jun 29, 2010, 5:34 PM
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Why should the madness stop? No madness, no sport.
DMT
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majid_sabet
Jun 29, 2010, 5:48 PM
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dingus wrote: Why should the madness stop? No madness, no sport. DMT
This madness is all about putting the name in the record book and the sad part is that as soon you are done, someone else is on the belay breaking yours.
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Tipton
Jun 29, 2010, 7:06 PM
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markc wrote: billl7 wrote: Tipton wrote: I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3. There's quite a range in what one might call a "career" ... the guy who climbs all his life but only follows someone else one weekend a month ... the gal who climbs everyone weekend for five years and moves onto something else ... the guy who got layed off two years ago when the US economy took a dump and has quadrupled the amount of climbing since then compared to the previous four years. Not for nothing, but I'd guess this is the Bill Wright who wrote the book on speed climbing (with Hans Florine). Bill is obviously aware of the risks, and making an informed choice to climb. As bill7 pointed out, climbing is different for each of us. It's up to us all to determine the degree of risk we're comfortable with. Before I judge others, I try to remember those moments in my own (very humble) climbing career when things could have gone bad. I question anyone if they think they're immune to an accident. http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a
You are correct, this is the same Bill Wright (a talented climber, to say the least). I'm not condemning their actions or decisions. I'm not even even questioning the motivation. The only issue that I'm bringing up is "free rescues". Until this, I firmly believed that rescue costs should not be charged to the involved parties and now I'm second guessing it. How much is too much?
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dingus
Jun 29, 2010, 7:25 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: dingus wrote: Why should the madness stop? No madness, no sport. DMT This madness is all about putting the name in the record book and the sad part is that as soon you are done, someone else is on the belay breaking yours.
This madness was with us DAY ONE when this sport was invented. DAY ONE.
No competition, no sport.
DMT
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dingus
Jun 29, 2010, 7:26 PM
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Tipton wrote: markc wrote: billl7 wrote: Tipton wrote: I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3. There's quite a range in what one might call a "career" ... the guy who climbs all his life but only follows someone else one weekend a month ... the gal who climbs everyone weekend for five years and moves onto something else ... the guy who got layed off two years ago when the US economy took a dump and has quadrupled the amount of climbing since then compared to the previous four years. Not for nothing, but I'd guess this is the Bill Wright who wrote the book on speed climbing (with Hans Florine). Bill is obviously aware of the risks, and making an informed choice to climb. As bill7 pointed out, climbing is different for each of us. It's up to us all to determine the degree of risk we're comfortable with. Before I judge others, I try to remember those moments in my own (very humble) climbing career when things could have gone bad. I question anyone if they think they're immune to an accident. http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_aYou are correct, this is the same Bill Wright (a talented climber, to say the least). I'm not condemning their actions or decisions. I'm not even even questioning the motivation. The only issue that I'm bringing up is "free rescues". Until this, I firmly believed that rescue costs should not be charged to the involved parties and now I'm second guessing it. How much is too much?
Charge one, charge all. Free one, free for all. Deciding who was too reckless is a fools game that will be used against climbers.
Why do you feel the need to punish other climbers for accidents?
DMT
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degaine
Jun 29, 2010, 7:37 PM
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Climbing rescues, in number and cost, are a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall number of rescues and the overall cost of rescues in the mountains. Most rescues involve hikers.
I don't remember the exact statistic (werner braun should know) but something in the range of 95% (maybe even as high as 99%) of rescues in Yosemite do not involve climbers.
Ditto in places like Chamonix.
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Tipton
Jun 29, 2010, 7:40 PM
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dingus wrote: Tipton wrote: markc wrote: billl7 wrote: Tipton wrote: I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3. There's quite a range in what one might call a "career" ... the guy who climbs all his life but only follows someone else one weekend a month ... the gal who climbs everyone weekend for five years and moves onto something else ... the guy who got layed off two years ago when the US economy took a dump and has quadrupled the amount of climbing since then compared to the previous four years. Not for nothing, but I'd guess this is the Bill Wright who wrote the book on speed climbing (with Hans Florine). Bill is obviously aware of the risks, and making an informed choice to climb. As bill7 pointed out, climbing is different for each of us. It's up to us all to determine the degree of risk we're comfortable with. Before I judge others, I try to remember those moments in my own (very humble) climbing career when things could have gone bad. I question anyone if they think they're immune to an accident. http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_aYou are correct, this is the same Bill Wright (a talented climber, to say the least). I'm not condemning their actions or decisions. I'm not even even questioning the motivation. The only issue that I'm bringing up is "free rescues". Until this, I firmly believed that rescue costs should not be charged to the involved parties and now I'm second guessing it. How much is too much? Charge one, charge all. Free one, free for all. Deciding who was too reckless is a fools game that will be used against climbers. Why do you feel the need to punish other climbers for accidents? DMT
I don't. I'm pretty squarely against charging climbers for anything at all. All I'm saying is that as the volume of climbers increases so will the need for rescues. Since SAR is mostly volunteer based, how long can they really keep up with the demand?
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majid_sabet
Jun 29, 2010, 7:44 PM
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degaine wrote: Climbing rescues, in number and cost, are a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall number of rescues and the overall cost of rescues in the mountains. Most rescues involve hikers. I don't remember the exact statistic (werner braun should know) but something in the range of 95% (maybe even as high as 99%) of rescues in Yosemite do not involve climbers. Ditto in places like Chamonix.
This year yosemite had several climbing accident with one fatality. defiantly more than last year . Also there was simul-climb accident in yosemite in 2009. The detail of that incident will be published in 2011 ANAM.
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boymeetsrock
Jun 29, 2010, 8:54 PM
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Tipton wrote: dingus wrote: Tipton wrote: markc wrote: billl7 wrote: Tipton wrote: I'm not wishing ill on any of the parties involved, just surprised at the frequency of accidents this poor guy is involved in. Most people aren't involved in a single rescue in their climbing career and he's at 2, possibly 3. There's quite a range in what one might call a "career" ... the guy who climbs all his life but only follows someone else one weekend a month ... the gal who climbs everyone weekend for five years and moves onto something else ... the guy who got layed off two years ago when the US economy took a dump and has quadrupled the amount of climbing since then compared to the previous four years. Not for nothing, but I'd guess this is the Bill Wright who wrote the book on speed climbing (with Hans Florine). Bill is obviously aware of the risks, and making an informed choice to climb. As bill7 pointed out, climbing is different for each of us. It's up to us all to determine the degree of risk we're comfortable with. Before I judge others, I try to remember those moments in my own (very humble) climbing career when things could have gone bad. I question anyone if they think they're immune to an accident. http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_aYou are correct, this is the same Bill Wright (a talented climber, to say the least). I'm not condemning their actions or decisions. I'm not even even questioning the motivation. The only issue that I'm bringing up is "free rescues". Until this, I firmly believed that rescue costs should not be charged to the involved parties and now I'm second guessing it. How much is too much? Charge one, charge all. Free one, free for all. Deciding who was too reckless is a fools game that will be used against climbers. Why do you feel the need to punish other climbers for accidents? DMT I don't. I'm pretty squarely against charging climbers for anything at all. All I'm saying is that as the volume of climbers increases so will the need for rescues. Since SAR is mostly volunteer based, how long can they really keep up with the demand?
Charging for rescues, while a valid discussion, is a discussion for another thread.
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billl7
Jun 30, 2010, 3:59 PM
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Tipton wrote: I'm not condemning their actions or decisions. I'm not even even questioning the motivation. The only issue that I'm bringing up is "free rescues". Until this, I firmly believed that rescue costs should not be charged to the involved parties and now I'm second guessing it. How much is too much?
Cheers!
Bill L
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billl7
Jun 30, 2010, 4:11 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: This madness is all about putting the name in the record book and the sad part is that as soon you are done, someone else is on the belay breaking yours.
Majid, Trust me, that is not all of the reason for the madness. I suspect I would be climbing even if no one else knew about my efforts. Bill L
Indeed - "The graveyard is full of indispensable men."
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marc801
Jun 30, 2010, 5:20 PM
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flamer wrote: marc801 wrote: cracklover wrote: Second, that was a proud objective. Proud? 100 pitches in Eldo of all places with fixed descent lines and stashed water and food. Sounds more like a stunt. So you'll be doing it next weekend then? Since it would be such an easy "stunt" and all....
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sonso45
Jun 30, 2010, 5:22 PM
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Get well Tom and Bill. Thanks for sharing the story and baring your soul. It is hard to react calmly when involved in trauma, fighting panic and fear while trying to do something helpful can be very difficult. I read Bill's explanation and felt that it would have been difficult to do more without jeopardizing both.
Now for a what if: if the line was close enough for Bill to reach at his initial stopping point and his gear fit the crack, I think he could have created an anchor there and attached it to the taut line via prussik. Then he could have attached himself to the anchor and untied, freeing the rope above him while Tom remained unmoved since he was on the new anchor. With the slack he gained from untying, he could have lowered Tom to the ledge and gotten enough slack to rappel to Tom. At that point at least he could have stabilized him as best as possible.
Thanks for giving us the chance to learn from this Bill. We all push the envelope in our own way. I don't normally simul-climb but have done so when expedient and safe (to us) on a long easy climb.
The fact is, easy climbs aren't necessarily safe climbs. We all choose our "stunts" or objectives because they mean something to us. If they had succeeded it would have meant something to them and that's really what counts.
(This post was edited by sonso45 on Jun 30, 2010, 5:27 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jun 30, 2010, 5:31 PM
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billl7 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: This madness is all about putting the name in the record book and the sad part is that as soon you are done, someone else is on the belay breaking yours. Majid, Trust me, that is not all of the reason for the madness. I suspect I would be climbing even if no one else knew about my efforts. Bill L Indeed - "The graveyard is full of indispensable men."
In Hi- Alt climbing, if you do not return back to BC, nothing counts. same principle applies to speed climbing. Once you ask for SAR, game is over.
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sspssp
Jun 30, 2010, 5:32 PM
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One thing that I think has gotten lost in the discussion: I don't think this is really a simul-climbing accident. Yes, the leader fell while simul-climbing. But he was what, 60+ from his last piece. If he had taken the same fall, while being belayed normally, the fall would have been about the same. There is a little more slack in the system with a simul-climb than a belay, but in the context of a 100+ fall, not really (say a 110') instead of 120'.
I don't think is that different than somebody running it out (even with a standard belay) on terrain they consider "easy". Now you can certainly second guess the decision to go that far without a piece, but this is an issue anyone who has done a long alpine route has to face. If you start sewing up the fourth and third class sections of rock, well, good luck with that.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jun 30, 2010, 5:37 PM)
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dingus
Jun 30, 2010, 5:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: billl7 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: This madness is all about putting the name in the record book and the sad part is that as soon you are done, someone else is on the belay breaking yours. Majid, Trust me, that is not all of the reason for the madness. I suspect I would be climbing even if no one else knew about my efforts. Bill L Indeed - "The graveyard is full of indispensable men." In Hi- Alt climbing, if you do not return back to BC, nothing counts. same principle applies to speed climbing. Once you ask for SAR, game is over.
Well I happen to think that once you rap down a fixed line to fix your pro, the attempt is over. But that's just me and this gig is not mine. So I don't even care if they feel its important or not (free climbing, that is)
DMT
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majid_sabet
Jun 30, 2010, 6:04 PM
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dingus wrote: majid_sabet wrote: billl7 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: This madness is all about putting the name in the record book and the sad part is that as soon you are done, someone else is on the belay breaking yours. Majid, Trust me, that is not all of the reason for the madness. I suspect I would be climbing even if no one else knew about my efforts. Bill L Indeed - "The graveyard is full of indispensable men." In Hi- Alt climbing, if you do not return back to BC, nothing counts. same principle applies to speed climbing. Once you ask for SAR, game is over. Well I happen to think that once you rap down a fixed line to fix your pro, the attempt is over. But that's just me and this gig is not mine. So I don't even care if they feel its important or not (free climbing, that is) DMT
well
you know when a 13 years old jugs the 3000 meter of rope on Everest, thats not really an Everest climbing
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billl7
Jun 30, 2010, 6:11 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: you know when a 13 years old jugs the 3000 meter of rope on Everest, thats not really an Everest climbing
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billl7
Jun 30, 2010, 6:13 PM
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dingus wrote: Well I happen to think that once you rap down a fixed line to fix your pro, the attempt is over.
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majid_sabet
Jun 30, 2010, 6:36 PM
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billl7 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: you know when a 13 years old jugs the 3000 meter of rope on Everest, thats not really an Everest climbing This bothers you? I could not care less ... no matter which side of the event we are looking at.
No, it does not bother me. I think they should charge for SAR on a call like this. I mean full price with no discount.
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