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dugl33
Sep 9, 2010, 6:06 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: tower_climber wrote: Fair enough. I'll go back to my corner now. no harm in asking despite the troll in here that dont help you ... lol the strength of the placement of nuts is limited by the rock and the surface area of the nut ... which is why smaller nuts have lower values ... less contact area all trad gear has similar limitations with a few differences if you dont ask youll never know
And if you ask bearbreeder, you'll still never know.
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 6:10 PM
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dugl33 wrote: [ And if you ask bearbreeder, you'll still never know.
troll troll troll ... have anything to contribute?
lol
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redlude97
Sep 9, 2010, 6:14 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: dugl33 wrote: [ And if you ask bearbreeder, you'll still never know. troll troll troll ... have anything to contribute? lol
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chadnsc
Sep 9, 2010, 6:22 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: redlude97 wrote: Do you even know the definition of a troll? u  lol
Hello anonymous interweb typist. You iz a trollz, your skillz are weeeeek!
No points for you.
If you aren’t a troll then I apologize for making fun of someone with such a serious mental handicap.
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 6:23 PM
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mmm ... were you going to contribute something useful to the OP's question ...
or just troll mister forrest gump ... lol
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petsfed
Sep 9, 2010, 6:29 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: i dont use a ton of micronuts ... totally true ... i always use larger nuts when i can like i said if someone can show me that wire size and not surface contact is the main limiting factor im all ears ... i suspect that most placements in rock will fail before the wire
How do you test that in a repeatable and meaningful fashion though? The rating refers to the ultimate strength of the piece in a situation where the placement cannot fail.
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iron106
Sep 9, 2010, 6:29 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: ive never had a nut pull or break except in a upward pull where i screwed up on rope drag .... and i love placing nuts and tricams
I love placing my nuts in tight constrictions. So far my wire has not broken. I can't imagine it going that hard. If I did have a nut break in that instance I would consider a different placement the next time. In this cases a screamer would only make the situation worse.
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 6:34 PM
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petsfed wrote: How do you test that in a repeatable and meaningful fashion though? The rating refers to the ultimate strength of the piece in a situation where the placement cannot fail.
i have absolutely no idea ... which is why if someone wants to chime in that wires are the limiting factor im all ears ...
the only thing i can say is that most placements of nuts of others that ive seen fail ... the was still intact
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kachoong
Sep 9, 2010, 6:52 PM
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 6:53 PM
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kachoong wrote: [image]http://crow202.org/wordpress/wp-content/images/fox_allears.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.angelzfunnyz.com/Portals/0/Gallery/Album/3/cowears.jpg[/image] [image]http://cheezdailysquee.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/129163635756994692.jpg[/image] [image]http://ih1.redbubble.net/work.1426831.3.flat,550x550,075,f.talk-to-me-im-all-ears.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.insidefurniture.com/insidefurniture/images/2008/02/21/all_ears.jpg[/image]
lol ... points for creativity
now if you would contribute to what you see as the most common nut failures ... youd be helpful too
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 7:00 PM
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kachoong wrote: Well, it's not really the question of the OP, but if you must.... I would say inexperienced nut placer is the most common cause of nut failure.
much thanks ... i feel the same way <3
and to the OPs point why do you think that nuts are rated lower than biners
and no im not trolling you
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redlude97
Sep 9, 2010, 7:05 PM
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One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that a biners closed gate strength is mainly due to the built in open/cross loading strength meeting a minimum value(7kn).
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 7:18 PM
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interesting that the UIAA states that a free falling mass never exceeds 5 KN in real climbing situation
if this is true you should never worry about a medium sized nut ripping out in a totally perfect placement in metal ... lol
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/How_strong_are_your_karabiners.pdf
actual UIAA test requirements for nuts and carbs are here ...
http://www.theuiaa.org/safety_standards.php
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 9, 2010, 7:23 PM)
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kachoong
Sep 9, 2010, 8:09 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: kachoong wrote: Well, it's not really the question of the OP, but if you must.... I would say inexperienced nut placer is the most common cause of nut failure. much thanks ... i feel the same way <3 and to the OPs point why do you think that nuts are rated lower than biners and no im not trolling you
This is my take: Carabiners are used in many parts of the climbing team system for a variety of reasons. A nut on the other hand has really only one use... being the interface between rock and biner; a point of attachment for the climber on lead or as a part of an anchor system. It really isn't stipulated that any single piece of protection "should" be rated anything, but a carabiner is used for a variety of reasons including being a powerpoint of an anchor, a single point to clip to in two opposed nuts or to attach to a litter in rescue. The carabiner should be inherently strong and if used properly, stronger than any possible force unleashed in a normal climbing situation. The nut is a single piece of the system and if small enough shouldn't really be relied on as a sole point of attachment.
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 8:17 PM
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youve just given the most comprehensive answer to the OPs question ...
that could be the end of the thread
thanks
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chadnsc
Sep 9, 2010, 8:25 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: mmm ... were you going to contribute something useful to the OP's question ... or just troll mister forrest gump ... lol
Your skills are weak. Very weak.
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chadnsc
Sep 9, 2010, 8:53 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: chadnsc wrote: Your skills are weak. Very weak. like gophers ... they keep on popping up with nothing useful ... gotta love RC
Kind of like you huh?
I mean if you were a good troll you'd be less obvious and not take the bait but alas, you're not. 
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jipstyle
Sep 9, 2010, 8:59 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: interesting that the UIAA states that a free falling mass never exceeds 5 KN in real climbing situation if this is true you should never worry about a medium sized nut ripping out in a totally perfect placement in metal ... lol
Physics fail.
Stipulating for the moment that a falling mass generates a max of 5 KN, this does NOT mean that the top piece of a system must hold only 5KN. The pulley effect works against us and the nut must hold the forces from both the fall and the belay.
Having said that, I agree with most people here that the limiting factor is, more often than not, the placement of the nut. However, in a perfect constriction in bullet-hard granite, I'd wager the piece will fail before the placement.
"Rules are for fools"
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bearbreeder
Sep 9, 2010, 9:04 PM
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jipstyle wrote: Physics fail. Stipulating for the moment that a falling mass generates a max of 5 KN, this does NOT mean that the top piece of a system must hold only 5KN. The pulley effect works against us and the nut must hold the forces from both the fall and the belay. Having said that, I agree with most people here that the limiting factor is, more often than not, the placement of the nut. However, in a perfect constriction in bullet-hard granite, I'd wager the piece will fail before the placement. "Rules are for fools"
what i consider a BD medium nut #6 is rated to 10 KN ... would that be enough for forces from both the fall and belay in an absolute perfect placement?
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jipstyle
Sep 9, 2010, 10:58 PM
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I hope so! 
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kennoyce
Sep 9, 2010, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: what i consider a BD medium nut #6 is rated to 10 KN ... would that be enough for forces from both the fall and belay in an absolute perfect placement?
I can't even come close to understanding what that is supposed to mean
As for what has been learned and should be learned from this thread:
1. bearbreeder is a complete idiot who contributes absolutely nothing to this forumn then complains about everyone else who contributes nothing.
2. Nuts are rated according to the strength of their wire. This is not to say that they can't fail under smaller loads due to poor placements or rock quality.
3. Forces on gear can be significantly higher than the force on the falling climber due to the pully effect, and can under some circumstances (i.e. high fall factor) exceed 10kN.
4. A single nut should never be the only piece keeping you off the ground unless you are willing to risk decking in a fall.
5. The important strength rating on a biner is not the closed gate strength, but the open gate strength. Most biners have less than a 10kN open gate strength and I'm willing to bet that we fall on more open biners than we realize.
6. I think bearbreeder has just taken over as the most annoying poster on RC.com and that is certainly saying something.
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