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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 3:57 PM
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Yow! That's a nasty groove! That's a biner that should have been retired long ago.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 3:57 PM)
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 4:31 PM
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Well, that's an eye opener.
It is bizarre that the report goes into great detail about the quickdraw, but never mentions the brand, age, and condition of the rope.
As bad as that carabiner looks, there are a lot of biners out there just like that one. It seems a little strange that accidents like this have not happened more often. It'll be interesting to see if the investigators can reproduce the results.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 4:34 PM)
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iron106
Sep 24, 2010, 4:32 PM
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I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
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captainstatic
Sep 24, 2010, 4:35 PM
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That is a locked forum on RRC.com. The unlocked thread on this incident is http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=11&t=13271 and eventually includes pictures of the severed rope. Details of the accident are still under investigation. Please take note of what the owner of Muir Valley posted in this thread -
"Suggestion: Every time you climb, get into the habit of inspecting the fixed gear at the anchors and the stuff left hanging on the bolts. If it looks bad, either report it or replace it.
I hope we've made it profoundly clear in postings, waivers, warning signs, etc. that climbers should report any and all suspect gear found in Muir Valley to the owners. And, please do not take a magic marker and write a big note on the rock surface stating: "Do not climb here - loose bolt" as one visitor did. !?
Rick"
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drector
Sep 24, 2010, 4:43 PM
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Someone could file down a 'biner to match the one that caused the failure then use it in a pull test to see when it cuts the rope. it would not be very scientific but it could help people understand how this might affect them in the field.
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redlude97
Sep 24, 2010, 4:50 PM
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drector wrote: Someone could file down a 'biner to match the one that caused the failure then use it in a pull test to see when it cuts the rope. it would not be very scientific but it could help people understand how this might affect them in the field.
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csproul
Sep 24, 2010, 4:57 PM
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iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
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bigo
Sep 24, 2010, 4:58 PM
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jt512 wrote: Well, that's an eye opener. It is bizarre that the report goes into great detail about the quickdraw, but never mentions the brand, age, and condition of the rope. As bad as that carabiner looks, there are a lot of biners out there just like that one. It seems a little strange that accidents like this have not happened more often. It'll be interesting to see if the investigators can reproduce the results. Jay
Not really debating anything said in the above quote...
My wife took a relatively small lead fall onto a biner that looked very similar to that one at Maple Canyon. Our rope was less than one week old and the sheath was cut to the core. The sheath was not completely severed and the core was undamaged, but it required us to chop our brand new rope down 15' or so, that sucked.
Since then I have payed more attention to the fixed biners we are clipping and have found there are a lot of nasty sharply worn ones out there. The scenario that seems to lead to this kind of wear is a biner that is not fallen on or lowered on often and is under tension when a climber is lowered. This can be a draw that is shorter than than rest on a steep route, or a draw far off the plum line. Biners at the crux often have deep grooves worn in them but usually have softer edges. By extending fixed draws that are prone to this kind of wear, I think some of it can be mitigated.
(This post was edited by bigo on Sep 24, 2010, 5:07 PM)
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redlude97
Sep 24, 2010, 4:59 PM
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csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.??
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csproul
Sep 24, 2010, 5:05 PM
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redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads
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moose_droppings
Sep 24, 2010, 5:07 PM
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redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads
So there not stronger.
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dynosore
Sep 24, 2010, 5:09 PM
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redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads
Then why don't they make them that cross sectional profile in the first place? Do you have a link to the data? I'm intrigued.
Edit: iPhone autospeeling strykes agen
(This post was edited by dynosore on Sep 24, 2010, 5:11 PM)
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newrivermike
Sep 24, 2010, 5:23 PM
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I've been predicting this occurence for a long time now and I'm glad it happened at the first bolt. Two things to be aware of here in addition to the obvious.
1. Watch out for fixed biners that incorporate an "I beam" or 'T-beam' type design in the bar stock. I don't know what they officially call this but many lightweight carabiners use it to shave weight. Petzl Spirits too. As they wear they carve into the thin section of metal and create a super sharp edge. This doesn't happen as severely on roundish bar stock carabiners like the BD hotwires or even standard ovals.
2. The most dangerous fixed carabiners are the first bolt and oftentimes biners that protect an easy section where no one ever falls or lowers. What happens is that the rope runs through the biner almost parallel to the rope bearing surface. The wear causes a flatness instead of a U shaped wear pattern. Very sharp.
I'm speculating but this accident was caused by three things. The flat worn edge due to the rope running parallel to the rope bearing surface, The carabiner being forged from 'T-stock' and finally, the hard fall generated when falling with a small amount of rope out.
I've gotten in the habit of roping up at the Red with 4 or 5 quicks even for fixed draw routes. Clipping my own when I see this stuff. These biners are EVERYWHERE! Seriously, be very careful.
(This post was edited by newrivermike on Sep 24, 2010, 5:27 PM)
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redlude97
Sep 24, 2010, 7:03 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads So there not stronger.
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 7:12 PM
Post #17 of 134
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redlude97 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads So there not stronger. ??
Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."
Jay
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moose_droppings
Sep 24, 2010, 7:14 PM
Post #18 of 134
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redlude97 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads So there not stronger. ??
The rope is forced into the part of the biner that can take more of a load. The biner itself is not stronger.
Edit; Sorry Jay, your right. I just saw your post after I had already replied.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 24, 2010, 7:16 PM)
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bearbreeder
Sep 24, 2010, 7:15 PM
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when in doubt clip yr own draws
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 7:51 PM
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I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?
WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?
Rap rings I can understand. But I just don't get this.
Would someone explain this to me?
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 7:55 PM)
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 7:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote: I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask? WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS? Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this. Would someone explain this to me?
It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 7:56 PM)
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socalclimber
Sep 24, 2010, 7:56 PM
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Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.
Pathetic.
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jt512
Sep 24, 2010, 7:59 PM
Post #23 of 134
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socalclimber wrote: Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear. Pathetic.
Why should placing quickdraws be such an important part of climbing?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 10:26 PM)
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kennoyce
Sep 24, 2010, 8:01 PM
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dynosore wrote: redlude97 wrote: csproul wrote: iron106 wrote: I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.?? Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads Then why don't they make them that cross sectional profile in the first place? Do you have a link to the data? I'm intrigued. Edit: iPhone autospeeling strykes agen
They do.
There are just a few examples for you.
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kennoyce
Sep 24, 2010, 8:03 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear. Pathetic.
Try retrieving the draws on an extremely overhung sport climb then come back and tell us how pathetic the preplaced draws were.
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