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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 5:00 PM
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rgold wrote: There is another thing about body-weight exercises that, it seems to me, might be appealing to climbers. Mastering something difficult obviously appeals to climbers, and gymnastic and circus moves provide a source of "projects" to work on, a very different experience than trying to add a few plates to the barbell.
The thing is that there is an opportunity cost to working on those sorts of gymnastic exercises. If you don't have a good rock climbing gym available and can't build a decent home wall, then gymnastic exercises are likely to be useful, since, like climbing, they are body weight exercises. But, a well-structured climbing-gym based training program will likely be more effective because it is more sport specific.
Like you, I'm not an expert. But the experts have already spoken and apparently they disagree, which, I guess, is why we're still arguing. That, and the fact that ideas about weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 1, 2010, 5:05 PM)
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mleogrande
Oct 1, 2010, 5:05 PM
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I don't think that an extensive weight-training program is going to provide optimal results. I have a basic chest and tricep program to counter balance strength gains in my back and biceps from rock climbing. For legs, I do intense yoga positions and lots of stretching.
When doing chest and tricep workouts, I try to do some standing exercises to engage my core instead of using machines where you sit. Core strength is vital for me since I prefer overhanging sport routes.
Remember, finger strength and proper movement is what creates better climbing. You have to climb to achieve this. Have a weight training program that works with your climbing schedule.
I would talk to some really good climbers and see what they do. Good Luck!
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rgold
Oct 1, 2010, 5:13 PM
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I agree with you Jay. The gymnastics was fun and, as I suggested, became a goal in itself. But if you are single-mindedly interested in getting better at single-pitch sport climbing, I think the verdict has been in for some time: climbing-specific training with perhaps a bit of barbell weight-training for injury prevention is what the elite climbers are doing.
The fact that many professional athletes pursue classical barbell weight-training programs merely highlights how different their sports are from climbing.
Upper-body strength is of no use if you can't hang on to use it, or if your technique conserves so little of it that it is soon unavailable.
(This post was edited by rgold on Oct 1, 2010, 5:14 PM)
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hafilax
Oct 1, 2010, 5:34 PM
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I certainly strongly believe that sport specific training is the most effective way to get better at climbing. That said, I've been pretty much exclusively been doing crossfit lately and it hasn't hurt my climbing. I may even have improved in some ways. Had my hardest flashes a few weeks ago although the grades are nothing to brag about. The last time I went to the gym I was still bouldering at my usual level.
The biggest difference is that I'm doing crossfit 4 or 5 days a week versus climbing in the gym once or twice a week. Climbing in the gym doesn't inspire me but crossfit is new so it's still fun. I know my general fitness is miles beyond what it was before. I guess this supports the argument that training well at something you enjoy is better than not training at all.
It will be interesting to see if I make any big gains when/if I go back to climbing more regularly. I've been climbing at the same level for years now.
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onceahardman
Oct 1, 2010, 6:37 PM
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I agree with you completely, Rich. No one is saying that weightlifting should be the primary means of improving one's climbing.
I started before climbing gyms were around, too. I built "crack machines" and "roof machines" in the floor joists in my basement. They made me stronger for climbing. Certainly more specific than pumping iron.
Your points about injury prevention are really what I was getting at. There is good evidence that targeted resistance training (which includes, but is not limited to, weightlifting) reduces injuries in athletes. I think general strengthening is wise practice, and I think the evidence supports that position. It may not take you from 5.10b to 5.12a, but it is likely to lengthen your climbing career, and to minimize your time off the rock due to injury.
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rgold
Oct 1, 2010, 7:47 PM
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Training to reduce injury potential is important if you think you might want to climb for a long time. I've always done this (have a bench and an adjustable barbell system in my basement), and I think it is one of the reasons I've gotten 52 years of climbing so far out of my body, which is really only now just starting to show some signs, still manageable, of possibly irreversible wear.
By contrast, I know some folks who did a combination of climbing and very climbing-specific training who suffered career-ending or career-limiting injuries in less than a third of my climbing days. I'm not referring to the devilishly hard-to-avoid epicondylitis problems either, I'm thinking of things like shoulder problems that could almost certainly have been avoided with just a bit of sensible barbell work.
These discussions seem nowadays to be conducted almost exclusively from the perspective of sport-climbing. Alpine climbing, back-country rock-climbing, and big-wall climbing are far more likely to benefit from various types of barbell weight training, because all of these demand a much higher level of overall physical fitness.
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aerili
Oct 1, 2010, 8:02 PM
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jt512 wrote: That, and the fact that ideas about weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs.
That, and the fact that ideas about not weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs.
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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 8:03 PM
Post #58 of 126
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aerili wrote: jt512 wrote: That, and the fact that ideas about weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs. That, and the fact that ideas about not weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs.
If you think that that applies to me, then you are wrong.
Jay
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davidnn5
Oct 1, 2010, 8:37 PM
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: davidnn5 wrote: Jay, flat-out question: You say you climb harder than someguy who climbs 5.13a. So, how hard exactly DO you climb? 5.12? 5.13? 5.14? V10? V12? Your log (and I'd note at this point you and cuRt are quick to pour shit on others' logs) suggests you don't really climb, if climbing means having logged a climb in the last year. Jay doesn't answer flat-out questions. Jay doesn't respond to morons that he's killfiled. Jay
davidnn5 wrote: jt512 wrote: The anchor is the last piece, so of course you don't want to fall on it - that doesn't negate wanting it to be bombproof if that occurs, in fact that's consistent with what was said above. First of all, that has nothing to do with what Largo said above. Secondly, if you have to worry about your anchor because it is your "last piece," you're either on desperate terrain or you don't know how to build an anchor. Jay
Callin' bullshit on that, Jay - did you not respond in the above post?
Answer the question, or admit you'll say anything to win an argument. While I know you hate simplicity, in this case it really is one or the other.
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mr.tastycakes
Oct 1, 2010, 9:32 PM
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OK people, let's all take a deep breath. This thread actually has some good stuff in it despite it's lowly beginnings. Can we take the pissing contest with Jay elsewhere?
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chadnsc
Oct 1, 2010, 9:39 PM
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jt512 wrote: chadnsc wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: davidnn5 wrote: Jay, flat-out question: You say you climb harder than someguy who climbs 5.13a. So, how hard exactly DO you climb? 5.12? 5.13? 5.14? V10? V12? Your log (and I'd note at this point you and cuRt are quick to pour shit on others' logs) suggests you don't really climb, if climbing means having logged a climb in the last year. Jay doesn't answer flat-out questions. Jay doesn't respond to morons that he's killfiled. Jay That right there Jay is you taking a cheap shot at someone who won't agree with you. Well, then you don't understand what a cheap shot is any more than you understood the . Jay
No Jay I understand them both.
I just think you take shots at people to intentionally hurt them (aka cheap shots) whenever someone doesn't agree with you. Now that may not be your definition of a cheap shot but it still makes you an ass and a coward. Of course this behavior may simply be defense mechanism you’ve constructed in order to deal with rejection and to avoid being shown incorrect.
I'll let you get back to trying to argue that you are correct despite three other experts in the field telling you that you are mistaken.
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onceahardman
Oct 1, 2010, 9:42 PM
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Sure, no problem. I'd like to correct an error I've made regarding Largo. He was actually doing hard .12 first ascents 36 years ago, rather than 25. Sorry about that, Largo.
From Wiki:
In reply to: Long's many climbing feats include the first one-day ascent of the 3,000 foot Nose route on El Capitan. He was also a boulderer and free-climber of some note. In 1974 he led the Paisano Overhang (5.12c) on Suicide Rock in Southern California. And in 1978 he climbed Hangover, a 5.12c route at nearby Tahquitz Rock. Also, in 1976, he made the first free ascent (5.11) of the Chouinard-Herbert route on Sentinel Rock in Yosemite National Park. As an adventurer, he participated in a coast-to-coast traverse of Borneo.
From Mountainproject:
In reply to: Description The Paisano Overhang - Is 4" to 6" offwidth 20 foot roof crack on Paisano pinnacle atop of the Sunshine Face on the front side of Paisano jam crack.The crux is defiantly the lip the last 6 to 8 feet of the roof go beyond inverted with MAX exposure high above the Sunshine Face.On the FFA Long placed two 4" bong pitons on the lead. (AMAZING)
There are, of course, other examples.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Oct 1, 2010, 10:11 PM)
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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 10:01 PM
Post #63 of 126
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chadnsc wrote: jt512 wrote: chadnsc wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: davidnn5 wrote: Jay, flat-out question: You say you climb harder than someguy who climbs 5.13a. So, how hard exactly DO you climb? 5.12? 5.13? 5.14? V10? V12? Your log (and I'd note at this point you and cuRt are quick to pour shit on others' logs) suggests you don't really climb, if climbing means having logged a climb in the last year. Jay doesn't answer flat-out questions. Jay doesn't respond to morons that he's killfiled. Jay That right there Jay is you taking a cheap shot at someone who won't agree with you. Well, then you don't understand what a cheap shot is any more than you understood the . Jay No Jay I understand them both.
You've repeatedly demonstrated otherwise. But when someone doesn't understand something, they often incapable of perceiving that fact, and no amount of explaining will help them. See Kruger and Dunning.
I just think you take shots at people to intentionally hurt them (aka cheap shots) whenever someone doesn't agree with you.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it might be.
In reply to: I'll let you get back to trying to argue that you are correct despite three other experts in the field telling you that you are mistaken.
I see that reading comprehension is still alive and well on the Internet.
Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 10:20 PM
Post #64 of 126
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onceahardman wrote: Sure, no problem. I'd like to correct an error I've made regarding Largo. He was actually doing hard .12 first ascents 36 years ago, rather than 25. Sorry about that, Largo. From Wiki: In reply to: Long's many climbing feats include the first one-day ascent of the 3,000 foot Nose route on El Capitan. He was also a boulderer and free-climber of some note. In 1974 he led the Paisano Overhang (5.12c) on Suicide Rock in Southern California. And in 1978 he climbed Hangover, a 5.12c route at nearby Tahquitz Rock. Also, in 1976, he made the first free ascent (5.11) of the Chouinard-Herbert route on Sentinel Rock in Yosemite National Park. As an adventurer... There are, of course, other examples.
So far you haven't found any that support your claim, which was "He onsighted first ascents in your maximum difficulty (pure numbers-wise) 25 years ago." None of those routes is at my maximum difficulty level (pure numbers-wise), none was a first ascent, and you have not supported your claim that any were done on-sight. The guidebook lists four people on the FFA of The Hangover. Kinda hard for four people to share an on-sight first free ascent, don't you think? That had to have been a yo-yo ascent. Maybe he onsighted Paisano Overhang, but I doubt it and you haven't shown that he did. Maybe he'll clarify if he reads this, or else I can ask him at the gym.
Jay
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onceahardman
Oct 1, 2010, 10:29 PM
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jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: Sure, no problem. I'd like to correct an error I've made regarding Largo. He was actually doing hard .12 first ascents 36 years ago, rather than 25. Sorry about that, Largo. From Wiki: In reply to: Long's many climbing feats include the first one-day ascent of the 3,000 foot Nose route on El Capitan. He was also a boulderer and free-climber of some note. In 1974 he led the Paisano Overhang (5.12c) on Suicide Rock in Southern California. And in 1978 he climbed Hangover, a 5.12c route at nearby Tahquitz Rock. Also, in 1976, he made the first free ascent (5.11) of the Chouinard-Herbert route on Sentinel Rock in Yosemite National Park. As an adventurer... There are, of course, other examples. So far you haven't found any that support your claim, which was "He onsighted first ascents in your maximum difficulty (pure numbers-wise) 25 years ago." None of those routes is at my maximum difficulty level (pure numbers-wise), none was a first ascent, and you have not supported your claim that any were done on-sight. The guidebook lists four people on the FFA of The Hangover. Kinda hard for four people to share an on-sight first free ascent, don't you think? That had to have been a yo-yo ascent. Maybe he onsighted Paisano Overhang, but I doubt it and you haven't shown that he did. Maybe he'll clarify if he reads this, or else I can ask him at the gym. Jay
I thought I was killfiled and we could stop.
From Mountainproject:
In reply to: Todd Gordon on "Paisano Overhang". Photo: Gordon C... Description The Paisano Overhang - Is 4" to 6" offwidth 20 foot roof crack on Paisano pinnacle atop of the Sunshine Face on the front side of Paisano jam crack.The crux is defiantly the lip the last 6 to 8 feet of the roof go beyond inverted with MAX exposure high above the Sunshine Face.On the FFA Long placed two 4" bong pitons on the lead. (AMAZING)
But as long as "you don't think so"...perhaps you could ask Largo to correct the mountainproject post if it's wrong.
Also, why don't you go lead Paisano Overhang, just to prove how it's well under your current standard? You won't even need to pound in the bongs-I'll loan you my big cams.
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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 10:35 PM
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onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: Sure, no problem. I'd like to correct an error I've made regarding Largo. He was actually doing hard .12 first ascents 36 years ago, rather than 25. Sorry about that, Largo. From Wiki: In reply to: Long's many climbing feats include the first one-day ascent of the 3,000 foot Nose route on El Capitan. He was also a boulderer and free-climber of some note. In 1974 he led the Paisano Overhang (5.12c) on Suicide Rock in Southern California. And in 1978 he climbed Hangover, a 5.12c route at nearby Tahquitz Rock. Also, in 1976, he made the first free ascent (5.11) of the Chouinard-Herbert route on Sentinel Rock in Yosemite National Park. As an adventurer... There are, of course, other examples. So far you haven't found any that support your claim, which was "He onsighted first ascents in your maximum difficulty (pure numbers-wise) 25 years ago." None of those routes is at my maximum difficulty level (pure numbers-wise), none was a first ascent, and you have not supported your claim that any were done on-sight. The guidebook lists four people on the FFA of The Hangover. Kinda hard for four people to share an on-sight first free ascent, don't you think? That had to have been a yo-yo ascent. Maybe he onsighted Paisano Overhang, but I doubt it and you haven't shown that he did. Maybe he'll clarify if he reads this, or else I can ask him at the gym. Jay I thought I was killfiled and we could stop.
Why did you think you were killfiled?
In reply to: From Mountainproject: In reply to: Todd Gordon on "Paisano Overhang". Photo: Gordon C... Description The Paisano Overhang - Is 4" to 6" offwidth 20 foot roof crack on Paisano pinnacle atop of the Sunshine Face on the front side of Paisano jam crack.The crux is defiantly the lip the last 6 to 8 feet of the roof go beyond inverted with MAX exposure high above the Sunshine Face.On the FFA Long placed two 4" bong pitons on the lead. (AMAZING) But as long as "you don't think so"...perhaps you could ask Largo to correct the mountainproject post if it's wrong. Also, why don't you go lead Paisano Overhang, just to prove how it's well under your current standard? You won't even need to pound in the bongs-I'll loan you my big cams.
One of us has a reading comprehension problem. Where does it say there that he onsighted it?
That's what you call a "direct question," BTW.
Jay
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onceahardman
Oct 1, 2010, 10:41 PM
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Jay, before you get your panties in any more of a bunch, why don't you call him up and ask him?
You apparently don't understand the importance of what IS actually written, (2 bongs placed on the FFA-AMAZING) and prefer to focus on whether you can catch me on some little smidgeon of untruth. Just ask him.
Settle down, have a cup of tea and a bran muffin. Once you take a good shit, you won't feel so ornery.
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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 10:44 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Jay, before you get your panties in any more of a bunch, why don't you call him up and ask him? You apparently don't understand the importance of what IS actually written, (2 bongs placed on the FFA-AMAZING) and prefer to focus on whether you can catch me on some little smidgeon of untruth. Just ask him. Settle down, have a cup of tea and a bran muffin. Once you take a good shit, you won't feel so ornery.
Hahaha. Nice work on the "direct question." And distinction between onsight and redpoint trivial? Hahaha.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 1, 2010, 10:46 PM)
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curt
Oct 1, 2010, 10:50 PM
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reno-esque is the new black. 
Curt
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hafilax
Oct 1, 2010, 10:51 PM
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For some reason I remembered it being a flash and that I'd find it on ST
In reply to: The main challenge on the FFA of Paisano was not the climbing - I got the thing first try - but the pro, an A3 steel bong (at the lip) that wouldn't have held a fall. It was make or break, extra incentive to grind it out. I rarely before or since ever got myself in such a position of commitment on a hard route. Exciting, and probably a little stupid, but I was 19. JL |
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jt512
Oct 1, 2010, 10:57 PM
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hafilax wrote: For some reason I remembered it being a flash and that I'd find it on ST In reply to: The main challenge on the FFA of Paisano was not the climbing - I got the thing first try - but the pro, an A3 steel bong (at the lip) that wouldn't have held a fall. It was make or break, extra incentive to grind it out. I rarely before or since ever got myself in such a position of commitment on a hard route. Exciting, and probably a little stupid, but I was 19. JL
It's still not clear from that whether or not he had previously aid climbed it. It was, after all, an established aid climb at the time.
Edit: On second thought, maybe if he had previously aided it, and then sent it his first time attempting it free, it would still be a beta flash.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 1, 2010, 11:03 PM)
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onceahardman
Oct 1, 2010, 11:01 PM
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jt512 wrote: hafilax wrote: For some reason I remembered it being a flash and that I'd find it on ST In reply to: The main challenge on the FFA of Paisano was not the climbing - I got the thing first try - but the pro, an A3 steel bong (at the lip) that wouldn't have held a fall. It was make or break, extra incentive to grind it out. I rarely before or since ever got myself in such a position of commitment on a hard route. Exciting, and probably a little stupid, but I was 19. JL It's still not clear from that whether or not he had previously aid climbed it. It was, after all, an established aid climb at the time. Jay
Like I said, just ask him, you've been name-droppiing that he's your gym buddy, go ahead and ask him. It's your best chance to make me look foolish. The best evidence we have now is that he made the moves "first try". The ball is now in your court.
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onceahardman
Oct 1, 2010, 11:07 PM
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How about this...
I'll apologize to you, and amend my statement to reflect that Largo flashed first free ascents (rather than onsight first ascents) at your existing level of difficulty 36 years ago, if you will go climb Paisano Overhang. You can even hang-dog it.
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curt
Oct 1, 2010, 11:52 PM
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onceahardman wrote: How about this... I'll apologize to you, and amend my statement to reflect that Largo flashed first free ascents (rather than onsight first ascents) at your existing level of difficulty 36 years ago, if you will go climb Paisano Overhang. You can even hang-dog it.
Don't take the bait, Jay...I still have scars from that thing from 1984.
Curt
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jt512
Oct 2, 2010, 2:55 AM
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curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: How about this... I'll apologize to you, and amend my statement to reflect that Largo flashed first free ascents (rather than onsight first ascents) at your existing level of difficulty 36 years ago, if you will go climb Paisano Overhang. You can even hang-dog it. Don't take the bait, Jay...I still have scars from that thing from 1984. Curt
I'm tempted. Just look at how much fun it looks:
Even Largo didn't like it: "A miserable climbing problem—an utterly insignificant route." [Source: Vogel/Gaines, Tahquitz and Suicide Rocks 2001]
Jay
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