First off I'm a climber, used to lift a long time ago. I'm still going to call bs

Is Jay being a little baby by taking his 'bal'l and running home . . . Yes

You asked. I did you the courtesy of answering. And now you're "call[ing] bs."

Fine. Pretend I never posted. I'll delete my responses, and you have fun climbing 5.10b. Experience shows that there are plenty of other 5.8–5.10 weight lifters who will be more than happy to tell you what you want to hear.

Jay

Jay, you talk this shit all the time....Have you ever heard of Mark Twight? Gym Jones? or the fact that I am in the weight room when I travel, and climb at a high enough level to call bullshit on you.

I did him the favor of replying. And his response was "I'm calling bullshit." OK, it's bullshit. No problem then. 5.10b isn't all that bad, after all, now, is it?

Well, I'm not really sure what that means, but when I travel I'm not in the weight room and I climb harder than you. So what, if anything, is your point?

Jay

Really Jay, you climb harder than me,,,,I doubt it. Sorry I dont happen to be one of the new kids you can intimidate on here, Not sure what my profile says, but I have read enough of your posts to have a pretty good idea of what you climb.

I do work out in every way possible, and yes, when I am not near a climbing area because I travel with work, I am in the weight room, or running the trails. When I travel to an area that has climbing, I climb.

Even if working out with weights doesn't help your climbing directly, it is not going to hurt it at all, and any higher level of fitness helps in everything you do. Of course you know that we are not talking body building here, we are talking strength training, big difference that Jay will never understand, if you. Op, dont understand it, I suggest you learn the difference.

He didn't say, "weight training won't help your climbing directly"...He said, "even if weight training won't help"...

Those mean different things.

Last I heard you weren't climbing as much, due to injury. Sounds like the guy weight training has no such problem. Just a single data point, but it IS a single data point.

I sincerely hope your injuries improve though. I'd be happy to answer any specific questions.

I have not been climbing too long, but I would say all of the above is good. Anything you do really is good.

Sounds like a data entry error.

Jay

If it hits your muscles (burns or what ever) in the same way you get it from climbing then i think it would help, as too how much i dont know?. Im not sure what most of the things on your list mean but id take a guess 95% of it is useless in turms of getting strong for climbing. Take squats for example, your legs in climbing will push off so many diffrent angles i dont even think squats will help all that much?

How unusual for you to be totally non-responsive.

How unusual for you to be totally wrong.

I deleted my posts for a reason. All the OP wants is affirmation from other 5.8–5.10 climbers just like him. And that's pretty much what he's getting. If he wants to remain a 5.10 climber all his life, then he should continue his program of non-specific training. That seems to be his plan, since he called advice to do otherwise "bullshit."

Jay

I'm guessing that your past lifting has built you a great base from which you can build your climbing from. If you've been lifting like this for several year than large muscle group strength is not going to your Limiting Factor. So in this regard I would argue that very little of the exercises you are doing is going to be useful in training for climbing.

I began climbing after being active in lifting. I lifted for almost 6 years, 3 times a week. The results were great and it certainly helped me build a good strength base for climbing and injury prevention in the large muscle groups. However after trying to do both (lift and climb) I realized that getting stronger in these large muscle groups wasn't going to help my climbing as much as working on my finger strength and movement skills. After I quit lifting (beyond some lightweight elbow exercises) my climbing greatly improved. For one my elbows got a chance to recover and two, I had more energy and time for climbing.

So if I were you and want to get better at climbing, I would take a hard look at your weaknesses (might be best to have someone else point them out to you, or even pay a climbing trainer because if you've spent money on it maybe you'll listen to them). If your weakness isn't large muscle groups, then I would greatly scale back the lifting, and use that time for climbing. If you feel it is necessary keep some shoulder exercises and wrist rotation exercises in for injury prevention. I often do some ab exercises after my climbing workout.

Disclaimer: This advice is written from a sport / trad / bouldering standpoint. If you want to climb everest or haul pigs for Tommy on the side of El Cap then what your doing is probably great. Also lifting / running / swimming / whatever is going to be better for you on the weeks you can't climb then sitting on the couch drinking beers.

Also as a plus once your somewhere around 12+ / V7 you can start hangboarding training and carry your pen and notepad to the climbing gym to track your hangboarding and campus workouts.

Good luck and have fun!

It's as if you speak a different language.

Thanks for the continuing non-response. I hope your back feels better.

You're welcome. I hope you stop beating your wife.

Jay

Ok there Jay, that crossed the line. I know you like to come off as a hard ass but that's a cheap shot.

You're acting like an ass, knock it off.

*whoosh*

Jay

All that that changes is now yo've shown that you're looser who spends way too much time on the internet.

My orginal comment still stands; you're an ass who takes cheap shots at users when your ego is hurt.

Sucks to be you.

Will lifting weights as part of a fitness routine help keep you in climbing shape . . . No

Are there other ways gain the benefits of strength training without lifting weights . . . Yes

Even after having it explained to you, you still don't get it and think I was taking a cheap shot at onceahardman. Sucks to be that dumb.

Jay

Lastly, I like what chadnsc wrote a lot with the exception of a couple things:

Yes it will in that your fitness foundation will remain higher--the platform from which all athletes must work.

Um...not really? People forget that lifting against any weight force (including your own) is "lifting weight." You cannot gain strength benefits of any kind unless you do something that taxes your muscles to the point of failure. No, cardio doesn't count.

No Jay, I get it that it's a reference to a online joke that one becomes aware of after spending way too much time online.

What you don't get is that regardless of said joke I still think that you, in general are an ass that takes cheap shots at people when they don't agree with you.

No, you don't get it. It's not a reference to an online joke at all.


Well, I wasn't taking a cheap shot at onceahardman. It was he who was taking a very cheap shot at me, albeit one based on false presupposition.

Jay

Jay, I already said I hope you feel better. Would you be so kind as to show me exactly the "very cheap shot" I have taken at you?

And BTW, regarding the "beating my wife" statement...I did not consider it a cheap shot against me. Its more of another example of the things you say to people here that you lack the courage to say face to face.

I love my wife dearly, and I'm pretty sure she could lump you up pretty well.

Jay, flat-out question: You say you climb harder than someguy who climbs 5.13a. So, how hard exactly DO you climb? 5.12? 5.13? 5.14? V10? V12?

Your log (and I'd note at this point you and cuRt are quick to pour shit on others' logs) suggests you don't really climb, if climbing means having logged a climb in the last year.

"I hope you stop beating your wife" was meant as a take-off on the classic example of false presupposition: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" As the stickler for logical correctness that you are, I trust that you will figure out why it was an apt response to your comment.

As far as what I think was a cheap shot on your part, I think you already know. But perhaps, as you suggest, we are hopelessly destined to misunderstand each other. Welcome to my world on rc.com.

Jay

Jay doesn't answer flat-out questions.

Jay doesn't respond to morons that he's killfiled.

Jay

I understood the wife-beating comment.

The very cheap shot, not so much. Is it a cheap shot to point out that you are/were injured and unable to climb...

...and that correlates with you not strength training?

And that others who climb at least as hard as you strength train... and are not injured? Is that a very "cheap shot", Jay?

Consider Largo for a moment. He onsighted first ascents in your maximum difficulty (pure numbers-wise) 25 years ago, while aggressively strength training.

You hangdog your way up 5.12a sport, working out the moves for a redpoint, and think you are doing something significant.You hangdog your way up 5.12a sport, working out the moves for a redpoint, and think you are doing something significant.

Maybe after you rehabilitate your injury, with some therapeutic exercise.

That right there Jay is you taking a cheap shot at someone who won't agree with you.

There is another thing about body-weight exercises that, it seems to me, might be appealing to climbers. Mastering something difficult obviously appeals to climbers, and gymnastic and circus moves provide a source of "projects" to work on, a very different experience than trying to add a few plates to the barbell.

That, and the fact that ideas about weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs.

That, and the fact that ideas about not weight lifting, to some, are very cherished beliefs.

Jay doesn't respond to morons that he's killfiled.

Jay

First of all, that has nothing to do with what Largo said above. Secondly, if you have to worry about your anchor because it is your "last piece," you're either on desperate terrain or you don't know how to build an anchor.

Jay

Well, then you don't understand what a cheap shot is any more than you understood the .

Jay

Long's many climbing feats include the first one-day ascent of the 3,000 foot Nose route on El Capitan. He was also a boulderer and free-climber of some note. In 1974 he led the Paisano Overhang (5.12c) on Suicide Rock in Southern California. And in 1978 he climbed Hangover, a 5.12c route at nearby Tahquitz Rock. Also, in 1976, he made the first free ascent (5.11) of the Chouinard-Herbert route on Sentinel Rock in Yosemite National Park. As an adventurer, he participated in a coast-to-coast traverse of Borneo.

Description
The Paisano Overhang - Is 4" to 6" offwidth 20 foot roof crack on Paisano pinnacle atop of the Sunshine Face on the front side of Paisano jam crack.The crux is defiantly the lip the last 6 to 8 feet of the roof go beyond inverted with MAX exposure high above the Sunshine Face.On the FFA Long placed two 4" bong pitons on the lead. (AMAZING)

No Jay I understand them both.

I'll let you get back to trying to argue that you are correct despite three other experts in the field telling you that you are mistaken.

Sure, no problem. I'd like to correct an error I've made regarding Largo. He was actually doing hard .12 first ascents 36 years ago, rather than 25. Sorry about that, Largo.

From Wiki:


There are, of course, other examples.

So far you haven't found any that support your claim, which was "He onsighted first ascents in your maximum difficulty (pure numbers-wise) 25 years ago." None of those routes is at my maximum difficulty level (pure numbers-wise), none was a first ascent, and you have not supported your claim that any were done on-sight. The guidebook lists four people on the FFA of The Hangover. Kinda hard for four people to share an on-sight first free ascent, don't you think? That had to have been a yo-yo ascent. Maybe he onsighted Paisano Overhang, but I doubt it and you haven't shown that he did. Maybe he'll clarify if he reads this, or else I can ask him at the gym.

Jay

Todd Gordon on "Paisano Overhang".
Photo: Gordon C...



Description
The Paisano Overhang - Is 4" to 6" offwidth 20 foot roof crack on Paisano pinnacle atop of the Sunshine Face on the front side of Paisano jam crack.The crux is defiantly the lip the last 6 to 8 feet of the roof go beyond inverted with MAX exposure high above the Sunshine Face.On the FFA Long placed two 4" bong pitons on the lead. (AMAZING)

I thought I was killfiled and we could stop.

From Mountainproject:


But as long as "you don't think so"...perhaps you could ask Largo to correct the mountainproject post if it's wrong.

Also, why don't you go lead Paisano Overhang, just to prove how it's well under your current standard? You won't even need to pound in the bongs-I'll loan you my big cams.

Jay, before you get your panties in any more of a bunch, why don't you call him up and ask him?

You apparently don't understand the importance of what IS actually written, (2 bongs placed on the FFA-AMAZING) and prefer to focus on whether you can catch me on some little smidgeon of untruth. Just ask him.

Settle down, have a cup of tea and a bran muffin. Once you take a good shit, you won't feel so ornery.

The main challenge on the FFA of Paisano was not the climbing - I got the thing first try - but the pro, an A3 steel bong (at the lip) that wouldn't have held a fall. It was make or break, extra incentive to grind it out.

I rarely before or since ever got myself in such a position of commitment on a hard route. Exciting, and probably a little stupid, but I was 19.

JL

For some reason I remembered it being a flash and that I'd find it on ST

It's still not clear from that whether or not he had previously aid climbed it. It was, after all, an established aid climb at the time.

Jay

How about this...

I'll apologize to you, and amend my statement to reflect that Largo flashed first free ascents (rather than onsight first ascents) at your existing level of difficulty 36 years ago, if you will go climb Paisano Overhang. You can even hang-dog it.

Don't take the bait, Jay...I still have scars from that thing from 1984.

Curt

OK people, let's all take a deep breath. This thread actually has some good stuff in it despite it's lowly beginnings. Can we take the pissing contest with Jay elsewhere?

...I will happily say I'm back to climbing today after almost 2 months off for potential tendon injuries (turned out to be nerve impingements). I'm happy to climb any grade, and that may be from 5.0 to 5.15; you go ahead and guess, if you care...

The thing is that there is an opportunity cost to working on those sorts of gymnastic exercises. If you don't have a good rock climbing gym available and can't build a decent home wall, then gymnastic exercises are likely to be useful, since, like climbing, they are body weight exercises. But, a well-structured climbing-gym based training program will likely be more effective because it is more sport specific.

shoulder problems that could almost certainly have been avoided with just a bit of sensible barbell work

What do you do to avoid shoulder problems ? Mine hurts from time to time.

You asked. I did you the courtesy of answering. And now you're "call[ing] bs."

Fine. Pretend I never posted. I'll delete my responses, and you have fun climbing 5.10b. Experience shows that there are plenty of other 5.8–5.10 weight lifters who will be more than happy to tell you what you want to hear.

Jay

I don't care...seriously.

Curt

Shouldn't you be lurking Adatesman's new site, waiting for your opportunity to get that last, last, last word on an issue no one but you ever cared about?

Shouldn't you be lurking Adatesman's new site, waiting for your opportunity to get that last, last, last word on an issue no one but you ever cared about?

You're much more of a cunt than a Curt!

Cheers dickrag. Keep up your hard work - you will always be respected for your efforts.

These are pretty good. They also give a sense of exercise progression. The only caveat is to use caution especially with the "abduction" exercise. If it causes pain, back off that one.

http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/...or/rotatstrength.php

Jay. When are you going to learn that people around here don't ask questions like that with a desire for real truth. I can't read what you posted originally, because you deleted it, but there's a good chance I totally agree with you. I started weight lifting and doing pullups about a couple of months ago...I ended up injuring my arm and both of the tendons in my right forearm. (I was too enthusiastic). Anyway, from my own personal experience (and I'm a female...keep that in mind) cardio (esp HIIT training) and climbing are the only types of training that have helped improve my climbing. I say that because cardio helps keep me skinnier, which makes climbing easier...which most guys might not even need for climbing. Depends.

Shouldn't you be busy sending out more retarded PMs? Like this one you just sent me?


Fucktard.

Curt

I sent it personally because I didn't feel like others need to be subjected to the animosity. However, if you want to fly to Aus and brawl, we can film it and make a true spectacle?

I sent it personally because I didn't feel like others need to be subjected to the animosity my douchebaggery.

Not sure how you can draw the conclusion weight training fails, simply because you personally fucked it up and got injured.

Anybody could so easily go over enthusiasticly climb, regardless of sex... and wind up with the same injury or worse.

I ended up injuring my arm and both of the tendons in my right forearm.

Weight lifting doesn't help rockclimbing though. It only creates more muscle and muscle is heavy to pull.

I didn't say that. You can injure yourself either way. Or neither way. I have golfers elbow and tennis elbow and I neither play golf nor tennis. Weight lifting doesn't help rockclimbing though. It only creates more muscle and muscle is heavy to pull. But the muscles created by rockclimbing are, obviously, the most efficent ones to use WHEN rockclimbing.

Ps. I posted that I was a female, because when compared to males, our body fat percentage is higher on average. Thereby explaining why cardio helps me with climbing...it, in combination with the muscle climbing creates, helps keep body fat percentage lower.

Karmi, you seem like a nice person, and I really hesitate to write anything. But, when you wrote above,


That implies you have two tendons in your forearm, which indicates a below average understanding of anatomy. It's so far off the mark as to be offensive to me. Secondly, you say,


Karmi, muscle is what actually does the pulling. No muscle, no pulling. Muscles don't push, they only pull.

The kind of "insight" you have in this conversation is akin to a sprinter who refuses to train hamstrings, because he only wants to train the muscles that propel him forward, as fast as possible, or the martial artist who only wants to train muscles involved in punching. You need muscle that provides both major movement patterns of a joint, to be really strong.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but if you got hurt in training, you probably either tried to wing it by yourself, or you trained with someone who doesn't know what he/she is doing.