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coastal_climber
Dec 9, 2010, 8:03 PM
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drector wrote: Question from an SAR n00b; when the guy hanging from the chopper clips to the anchor, is the chopper then anchored to the cliff? Is that avoided when possible or not a bug deal? I recall hearing about the ropes thrown from the choppers in Y.V. having a note saying not attach help helicopter rope to the anchor.
That would be evaluated with wind speed/direction I'm sure. As well as they can probably drop the line from the helicopter if it became an issue.
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majid_sabet
Dec 9, 2010, 8:05 PM
Post #27 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Without knowing what the standard procedures in this sort of situation are in Alberta, I can't say what is accepted or not. Having basic personal protection gear (ie, gloves) is pretty universal when blood is present. if you closely watch the vids, you see that guys on the ground have their gloves on cause they are medic and follow their rules. I guess at the end, one climber is saved and we can move on. the next time you tell someone they are going to die because they didnt do things the majid way ... ill just say "well dude he climbs in alberta" lol
you have no idea how many people die every year trying to save others.
http://en.wikinews.org/...nd_Rescue_Helicopter
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coastal_climber
Dec 9, 2010, 8:05 PM
Post #28 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: bearbreeder wrote: so are you saying that they forgot the rules in this case? let me ask you this ... do you believe that the actions of parks canada rescue in this video put lives at risks unnecessarily? ... and if so, is it not your moral obligation as a SAR person to contact parks canada about these gaps? either you believe it safe or you do not ... Without knowing what the standard procedures in this sort of situation are in Alberta, I can't say what is accepted or not. Having basic personal protection gear (ie, gloves) is pretty universal when blood is present. if you closely watch the vids, you see that guys on the ground have their gloves on cause they are medic and follow their rules. I guess at the end, one climber is saved and we can move on.
Since they are doing more than just getting vitals, you can see how easy those gloves would become ripped and useless.
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bearbreeder
Dec 9, 2010, 8:58 PM
Post #29 of 94
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i have a pretty good idea of how you dogmatically tell everybody theyre going to die if they dont do things your way
yet you dont seem to be able to express the same to parks canada rescue ... guess they can actually tell you to go buzz off ... hmmmm
im quite sure they would value reputable, experienced SAR folks helping to point out points where they can improve on ...
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majid_sabet
Dec 9, 2010, 11:22 PM
Post #30 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: i have a pretty good idea of how you dogmatically tell everybody theyre going to die if they dont do things your way yet you dont seem to be able to express the same to parks canada rescue ... guess they can actually tell you to go buzz off ... hmmmm im quite sure they would value reputable, experienced SAR folks helping to point out points where they can improve on ...
Go read the comments in the youtube
#
Firenurse100
5 days ago
This is great work. Even with the edits they made fast work in a tough spot to get that patient off. I do agree that the Team needs gloves as there was plenty of blood there.
also many comments were removed and i wonder why
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 9, 2010, 11:24 PM)
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ensonik
Dec 10, 2010, 1:02 AM
Post #31 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: Go read the comments in the youtube # Firenurse100 5 days ago This is great work. Even with the edits they made fast work in a tough spot to get that patient off. I do agree that the Team needs gloves as there was plenty of blood there.
Yes .. The Youtube comments ... A stalwart of intelligent comments and commenters. The nec plus ultra of bright and intelligent communities. The Youtube.
In reply to: also many comments were removed and i wonder why
See above, and apply sarcasm once more.
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bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 1:40 AM
Post #32 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: Go read the comments in the youtube # Firenurse100 5 days ago This is great work. Even with the edits they made fast work in a tough spot to get that patient off. I do agree that the Team needs gloves as there was plenty of blood there. also many comments were removed and i wonder why
youre depending on you tube comments now maiid? ... weak sauce ...
ill get you the number for parks canada if you want ;)
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Dec 10, 2010, 1:41 AM)
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silascl
Dec 10, 2010, 1:44 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: dan2see wrote: majid_sabet wrote: This is another Hollywood vids for you guys. for some this is business and I personally did not like what I saw. Watch your manners. Majid! These boys are our SAR and do a great job on our turf. On the other hand, if you want to help improve our gear, methods, and infrastructure, then come on up to the Canadian Rockies and show us how. You could run your own school, or maybe even start a new SAR company. But if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, then keep it shut. sorry Dan but if you had any medical training then you know when a guy is hit in the head, you stabilize the head and neck first then you go after the leg. with blood present then they should put their gloves on and try not clip yourself with one link. again, I like to see their standard operating procedures manual. May be things are done differently in Alberta .
I can't comment on their SAR practices as I know nothing about those things, but they should have put a c-spine collar on before they splinted his busted ankle. One is a life threatening injury, the other isn't. The jostling of putting on a splint and having him nod to questions is a bit of a red flag. The collar should already be on at that point.
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dan2see
Dec 10, 2010, 4:38 AM
Post #34 of 94
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Reading the comments in this thread is really difficult. You guys are spraying close to my home.
I can't claim that the Canadian Rockies is some kind of special area that nobody else can understand. But it is what it is, and our climbers are people who climb here.
Our support organizations invest a lot of time, effort, and money so they can operate effectively. That means our SAR's, EMT's, and parks staff are heroic angels of mercy, even more than simply handsome and intelligent.
So when some of you guys are writing as if you are correct about life here, you should watch out what it is you are criticizing.
In my post on Page #1, I said "Watch your manners, Majid" and it bears repeating.
And thanks, BB, for doing such a great job of presenting this true story about our climbing scene. Also "the_climber" is very experienced here -- when he writes about the Rockies, you can know that he actually is correct.
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majid_sabet
Dec 10, 2010, 5:11 AM
Post #35 of 94
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dan2see wrote: Reading the comments in this thread is really difficult. You guys are spraying close to my home. I can't claim that the Canadian Rockies is some kind of special area that nobody else can understand. But it is what it is, and our climbers are people who climb here. Our support organizations invest a lot of time, effort, and money so they can operate effectively. That means our SAR's, EMT's, and parks staff are heroic angels of mercy, even more than simply handsome and intelligent. So when some of you guys are writing as if you are correct about life here, you should watch out what it is you are criticizing. In my post on Page #1, I said "Watch your manners, Majid" and it bears repeating. And thanks, BB, for doing such a great job of presenting this true story about our climbing scene. Also "the_climber" is very experienced here -- when he writes about the Rockies, you can know that he actually is correct.
Instead of been nationalist hero, try to learn something. when a climber take 20 meter fall and has blood in his helmet, you support the head and neck first and then you go after everything else. that is how is suppose to be done.
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majid_sabet
Dec 10, 2010, 5:13 AM
Post #36 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Go read the comments in the youtube # Firenurse100 5 days ago This is great work. Even with the edits they made fast work in a tough spot to get that patient off. I do agree that the Team needs gloves as there was plenty of blood there. also many comments were removed and i wonder why youre depending on you tube comments now maiid? ... weak sauce ... ill get you the number for parks canada if you want ;)
in my comment, I asked them about their address so I could mail them a set of gloves
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dan2see
Dec 10, 2010, 5:22 AM
Post #37 of 94
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Majid, leave us alone. Work in your own area, and be the best you can be. But leave us alone.
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bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 5:33 AM
Post #38 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: in my comment, I asked them about their address so I could mail them a set of gloves
parks canada moutain safety ... link is on the top to contact
http://www.pc.gc.ca/progs/np-pn/sp-ps/index_e.asp
one of the rescuers aaron beardmore is also owner of transworld mountaineering ... he's also a director of the canadian avalanche association ... you can prob contact him at either
http://www.transworldmountaineering.com/
now whether you actually contact them or spend your time telling people here theyre going to die ... thats up to you
but you seem awfully good at arm chair generalling ... if youre going to do it to Parks Canada Rescue ... i suggest contacing them directly
im sure they would welcome the opportunity to share practices and information with fellow accredited experienced SAR groups ... anything that makes them and their clients safer
you are that arent you?
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bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 5:34 AM
Post #39 of 94
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dan2see wrote: And thanks, BB, for doing such a great job of presenting this true story about our climbing scene. Also "the_climber" is very experienced here -- when he writes about the Rockies, you can know that he actually is correct.
dan ... all credit goes to those who put their lives at risk saving others .. what i do is meaningless in comparison
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walkonyourhands
Dec 10, 2010, 1:19 PM
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Guys… you're being upset about Majids - admittedly clumsy - remarks. But don't you think that his point is valid indeed?
Sure, such universal statements (as: always use gloves when blood is present) are always short-sighted and their validity somewhat situation-dependent, but it's not that the situation at hand was overly unique or that Canada is some obscure and exotic place.
They did their job, and they deserve a great amount of credit for doing it, but it seems pretty likely that they didn't follow their own guidelines (they can't be that different to similar organizations) when it would have been easy to do so.
About the tone of Majids remarks… it's not really elegant how he calls people out, but if you've been on this board for a while, you probably know about his background and language situation. A bit of empathy would be reasonable here. I think his points stand anyway.
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bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 1:47 PM
Post #41 of 94
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walkonyourhands wrote: About the tone of Majids remarks… it's not really elegant how he calls people out, but if you've been on this board for a while, you probably know about his background and language situation. A bit of empathy would be reasonable here. I think his points stand anyway.
he may or may not have a point
but rather than contacting them directly as a professional, he prefers to armchair general on a web forum
he has no trouble telling other people on this forum how stupid they are or how they are going to die if they dont listen to him
why cant he tell parks canada the same if he really believes there is an issue
not very empathetic IMO ... im sure if they had issues about a video he posted, theyd contact him directly first
theyre professionals ... im sure they would welcome ways to improve
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Dec 10, 2010, 2:01 PM)
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xtrmecat
Dec 10, 2010, 4:51 PM
Post #42 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: walkonyourhands wrote: About the tone of Majids remarks… it's not really elegant how he calls people out, but if you've been on this board for a while, you probably know about his background and language situation. A bit of empathy would be reasonable here. I think his points stand anyway. he may or may not have a point but rather than contacting them directly as a professional, he prefers to armchair general on a web forum he has no trouble telling other people on this forum how stupid they are or how they are going to die if they dont listen to him why cant he tell parks canada the same if he really believes there is an issue not very empathetic IMO ... im sure if they had issues about a video he posted, theyd contact him directly first theyre professionals ... im sure they would welcome ways to improve
I see majid as having some very valid points, and calling him out on a forum for calling them out in a forum. Pot, meet kettle. He's right. As is the poster right above yours on this page. Been there, climbed that.
Burly Bob
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coastal_climber
Dec 10, 2010, 5:01 PM
Post #43 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: dan2see wrote: Reading the comments in this thread is really difficult. You guys are spraying close to my home. I can't claim that the Canadian Rockies is some kind of special area that nobody else can understand. But it is what it is, and our climbers are people who climb here. Our support organizations invest a lot of time, effort, and money so they can operate effectively. That means our SAR's, EMT's, and parks staff are heroic angels of mercy, even more than simply handsome and intelligent. So when some of you guys are writing as if you are correct about life here, you should watch out what it is you are criticizing. In my post on Page #1, I said "Watch your manners, Majid" and it bears repeating. And thanks, BB, for doing such a great job of presenting this true story about our climbing scene. Also "the_climber" is very experienced here -- when he writes about the Rockies, you can know that he actually is correct.Instead of been nationalist hero, try to learn something. when a climber take 20 meter fall and has blood in his helmet, you support the head and neck first and then you go after everything else. that is how is suppose to be done.
Fuck you.
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majid_sabet
Dec 10, 2010, 5:31 PM
Post #44 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: in my comment, I asked them about their address so I could mail them a set of gloves parks canada moutain safety ... link is on the top to contact http://www.pc.gc.ca/progs/np-pn/sp-ps/index_e.asp one of the rescuers aaron beardmore is also owner of transworld mountaineering ... he's also a director of the canadian avalanche association ... you can prob contact him at either http://www.transworldmountaineering.com/ now whether you actually contact them or spend your time telling people here theyre going to die ... thats up to you but you seem awfully good at arm chair generalling ... if youre going to do it to Parks Canada Rescue ... i suggest contacing them directly im sure they would welcome the opportunity to share practices and information with fellow accredited experienced SAR groups ... anything that makes them and their clients safer you are that arent you?
I never said they did not do a good job but still , there is set of protocol those in charge have to follow and that is in the book.Not my book but people forget and I have done it myself so I am not a shame of it. Also ,this a public forum where everyone have a right to say whatever they want as long as it's within the topic. you show a vids then get ready for whatever comes at you.
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bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 8:30 PM
Post #45 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: I never said they did not do a good job but still , there is set of protocol those in charge have to follow and that is in the book.Not my book but people forget and I have done it myself so I am not a shame of it. Also ,this a public forum where everyone have a right to say whatever they want as long as it's within the topic. you show a vids then get ready for whatever comes at you.
majid ... you can of course say and criticize whatever and whoever you want ... i mean its not like yr leaking a while bunch of classified state department documents is it?
however i personally think its a simple courtesy to Parks Canada SAR to contact them first
now whether youre a courteous person or not ... thats up to you
but you sure are the only "SAR" person who ive seen that keeps on telling people they are going to die and what idiots they are
you do realize that you spewing stuff on a forums aint going to help anything ...
as someone who does climb occasionally in the canadian rockies i would MUCH appreciate you sharing you knowledge with them ... as that could be me there being rescued one day ... and i or anyone else in that situation would like to have a safe rescue
all i see however is you armchair genralling just to stroke yr internet eqo ... please contact them, you may help save lives
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drillboy
Dec 10, 2010, 9:12 PM
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Let me start off by saying I do rope rescue work with a SAR group in the Rockies. Majid brings up legitimate points. With this video out in the media it is worth noting that not everything is done "by the book" but what they did worked. I can guarantee you that Parks Canada watched this video in their debriefing and anything that is not in accordance to their operating procedures has been addressed.
sorry if my grammar is horrid it really is not my strong point.
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altelis
Dec 11, 2010, 4:59 AM
Post #47 of 94
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I never said they did not do a good job but still , there is set of protocol those in charge have to follow and that is in the book.Not my book but people forget and I have done it myself so I am not a shame of it. Also ,this a public forum where everyone have a right to say whatever they want as long as it's within the topic. you show a vids then get ready for whatever comes at you. majid ... you can of course say and criticize whatever and whoever you want ... i mean its not like yr leaking a while bunch of classified state department documents is it? however i personally think its a simple courtesy to Parks Canada SAR to contact them first now whether youre a courteous person or not ... thats up to you but you sure are the only "SAR" person who ive seen that keeps on telling people they are going to die and what idiots they are you do realize that you spewing stuff on a forums aint going to help anything ... as someone who does climb occasionally in the canadian rockies i would MUCH appreciate you sharing you knowledge with them ... as that could be me there being rescued one day ... and i or anyone else in that situation would like to have a safe rescue all i see however is you armchair genralling just to stroke yr internet eqo ... please contact them, you may help save lives
To be fair, Majid's point about gloves & blood is mostly about protecting the rescuer, not creating a safer environment for the patient (those gloves certainly won't be sterile!).
Though, on the other hand, first rule of thumb is keep the rescuers safe.
Though on the other hand....ever spent any time in a hospital? It will never cease to amaze me the range of what health care providers will touch without gloves on. Some will barely touch a patient at all without gloves, even in a situation that doesn't warrant them. Others will do all sorts a stuff (draw bld, touch rashes, etc) w/o gloves.
Though on the other hand....
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notapplicable
Dec 11, 2010, 5:24 PM
Post #48 of 94
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coastal_climber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bearbreeder wrote: so are you saying that they forgot the rules in this case? let me ask you this ... do you believe that the actions of parks canada rescue in this video put lives at risks unnecessarily? ... and if so, is it not your moral obligation as a SAR person to contact parks canada about these gaps? either you believe it safe or you do not ... Without knowing what the standard procedures in this sort of situation are in Alberta, I can't say what is accepted or not. Having basic personal protection gear (ie, gloves) is pretty universal when blood is present. if you closely watch the vids, you see that guys on the ground have their gloves on cause they are medic and follow their rules. I guess at the end, one climber is saved and we can move on. Since they are doing more than just getting vitals, you can see how easy those gloves would become ripped and useless.
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onrockandice
Dec 11, 2010, 11:49 PM
Post #49 of 94
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majid_sabet wrote: sorry Dan but if you had any medical training then you know when a guy is hit in the head, you stabilize the head and neck first then you go after the leg. with blood present then they should put their gloves on and try not clip yourself with one link. again, I like to see their standard operating procedures manual. May be things are done differently in Alberta .
The gloves are there to protect the practitioners. My understanding, thought it has been a while is the gloves are left to the discretion of medical examiner. Though I believe if he/she forgoes gloves they may not persue any recourse for their own contamination. This is actually petty though. They may well have just forgotten and honestly, who doesn't forget something now and then.
This other crap about stabilizing the patient. We don't know what all the dialog was. The patient may have refused it or been unable to properly participate in putting a collar on to begin with. We don't know the reasons. In this case where there was obvious trama to the head that would have been the first thought. So why they didn't (and still have their jobs) must be a good reason. This video is a liability if they "forgot" and it would never have been made public. So I'm guessing there was a good reason and it had to do with the patient is my bet.
Rather than QB something that you only saw through the fish-eye with rotor-wash in the background. Why don't you stop pontificating here and do as the man has offered. Contact them directly and educate them on their failures. Then post back and tell the rest of us what you learned. Put your money where your mouth is or shut up.
If you won't call them I will just because this whole squabble is actually slander and the facts need to be put out to speak for themselves.
You going to call them or am I? For you not to call them would be pathetic indeed. You basically, leveled the charge at them you should have the fortitude to call them and collaborate with your peers. At least we've been led to believe they are your peers. You might be 13 too. Who knows...
Call them, do the right thing. Then tell us what you learned. You started the mess now finish it. It's that simple. It's how men do things.
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silascl
Dec 12, 2010, 12:04 AM
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It's only a liability if there was an injury. You can't sue a doctor for malpractice just for doing something wrong, there also has to be a harm of some kind. In this case there was a breach of the standard of care by not providing c-spine stabilization. There is no associated harm, therefore there is no case to be brought up against the rescuers.
If the guy had some kind of paralysis due to their actions, i would expect them to be sued and lose their certification.
By the way, you can hear the guy wearing the camera say that he'll work on the leg while his partner gets the collar ready. Sounds like they are ready to stabilize his spine, but the guy decides to go off protocol anyways.
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