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cfnubbler
Feb 10, 2011, 6:18 PM
Post #101 of 151
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chilli wrote: jt512 wrote: I see no benefit great enough that could offset the need for such a cluster-fuck just to lower your partner. Actually, I see no benefit to these autoblocking devices at all. But we've been through this before. Of course I'm sure that there are people who will buy the device just to be able to rig the cluster-fuck. Jay i think jay's absolutely right. it makes an escape easier, and it makes 3-party systems faster and that's about it. other than that, it's kinda cumbersome and superfluous to the goals for the day. i used to be one of the people that used guide mode frequently, and frankly it's lame. learning how to escape appropriately and dealing with the extra steps there removes the extra steps from lowering. which are you going to do more frequently?
What I'm doing most frequently is belaying two seconds simultaneously, and for this, the autoblocking mode is very useful. When I'm belaying one second, I'm more likely to choose a munter or a gri gri directly off the anchor. None of these techniques are lame. Once again, they are all just tools that need to be applied at the right time and in the right place.
(This post was edited by cfnubbler on Feb 10, 2011, 6:19 PM)
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chilli
Feb 10, 2011, 6:58 PM
Post #103 of 151
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cfnubbler wrote: chilli wrote: ... it makes an escape easier, and it makes 3-party systems faster and that's about it. other than that, it's kinda cumbersome and superfluous to the goals for the day. i used to be one of the people that used guide mode frequently, and frankly it's lame. learning how to escape appropriately and dealing with the extra steps there removes the extra steps from lowering. which are you going to do more frequently? What I'm doing most frequently is belaying two seconds simultaneously, and for this, the autoblocking mode is very useful....Once again, they are all just tools that need to be applied at the right time and in the right place.
point accounted for. i also forgot to mention z-drag facility in autoblock. my intent was to convey that there are uses, but seriously: day-to-day set-up with autoblock mode isn't necessary hence i said "superfluous." and stand by it.
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iknowfear
Feb 10, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #104 of 151
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patto wrote: iknowfear wrote: In an autoblock scenario, the belay device is hanging, and getting the brake strand to a lock position without a redirect is very difficult (or, depending where your anchor is, impossible).  Difficult or impossible!? 1. Take right hand place on brake strand. 2. Move brake strand into locked off position and grip firmly. Seriously, it isn't that hard!
look at the picture (repost. sorry.)
imagine the atc hanging from the anchor at chest level or higher.
now the lock off position of the break strand is somwhere above your head. I call that difficult (and very uncomfortable)
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reg
Feb 10, 2011, 8:28 PM
Post #105 of 151
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cfnubbler wrote: reg wrote: with all due respect, tell us you know the difference between reverso when "locked off" and reverso in "auto-block" mode. Who?
patto
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patto
Feb 10, 2011, 10:24 PM
Post #106 of 151
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Those who think that it is a superfluous piece of gear fine. But it is just another tool is very useful. By the same token the grigri is superfluous but they seem damn popular especially among sport climbers. I climb trad multipitch and a Reverso is extremely useful. I often lead 2 seconds and it is fantastic for that.
If YOU have difficulty lowering by all means use a 17 backups. Personally I am happy following Petzl's recommendation.  
(Reg, I have no idea what you are asking. 'Autolock mode' is a position of the device. "Locked off" implies that the brake strand is in a locked off position.)
(This post was edited by patto on Feb 10, 2011, 10:26 PM)
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healyje
Feb 10, 2011, 10:33 PM
Post #107 of 151
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None of this discussion is suitable for beginners and for me mostly highlights that belaying off the anchor is really mostly all about how much dogging seconds are doing such that it makes normal belaying 'inconvenient'.
And the overall rigging/'technique' clusterf#ckage involved (as on display in the debate here) simply shows it's just as much of a fertile ground for screwing up as anything else.
By and large I view belaying off the anchor as really weak, but then I'm old (and think climbing in threesomes is way more trouble than it's worth and that simul-ing seconds is a lousy response to dealing with all the hassle involved.).
(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 11, 2011, 1:12 AM)
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blondgecko
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Feb 11, 2011, 8:26 AM
Post #108 of 151
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iknowfear wrote: patto wrote: curt wrote: Oh, and just restating that you have (so far) apparently gotten away with your inherently dangerous method, doesn't count. If using your hand to hold the brake strand of a belay device in locked position is dangerous then that would imply that all belaying is dangerous. A lead catch has far higher forces held by a locked off belay device. Apple, Meet Orange. In a lead fall scenario, the atc is on your belay loop, oriented in way that makes locking fairly easy. (While still possible to FU. See the million threads about dropped people) In an autoblock scenario, the belay device is hanging, and getting the brake strand to a lock position without a redirect is very difficult (or, depending where your anchor is, impossible). just a question to you patto: on the occasions where you released the autoblock, was there: - friction (rope drag) still in the system up to your second? - a light climber to be lowered. Because, the few times that I released the atc-guide, I had to unblock it with my foot (sling in ATC, redirected ) leading to a sudden, surprising and complete release onto the munter. Maybe that's different with a reverso? Anyway, I stand by my statement. Do NOT use a plaquette (ATC Guide, Reverso etc) in autoblock mode without having tested how to release it in a safe situation! Cheers.
OK, in my first reply to this thread I missed that the discussion was about autoblocking devices. Now, I'm not saying I particularly like these or see the point in them in anything outside a few unusual situations, but the solution to this is still pretty much as I said. Extend the anchor so that the device is at or slightly below your waist. That way you're belaying more or less as you would if it was attached to your harness, and a fall would naturally leave your break hand in the locked-off position.
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csproul
Feb 11, 2011, 1:20 PM
Post #109 of 151
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Having the device at or slightly below your waist makes it more awkward to pull rope through the device while belaying. It is much easier to take in rope if the device is higher, up near your face.
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blondgecko
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Feb 11, 2011, 2:35 PM
Post #110 of 151
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csproul wrote: Having the device at or slightly below your waist makes it more awkward to pull rope through the device while belaying. It is much easier to take in rope if the device is higher, up near your face.
Well, in a choice between comfort and safety with minimum clusterfuckage, I'm going to go with the latter every time - particularly if the discomfort is only minor.
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csproul
Feb 11, 2011, 2:41 PM
Post #111 of 151
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blondgecko wrote: csproul wrote: Having the device at or slightly below your waist makes it more awkward to pull rope through the device while belaying. It is much easier to take in rope if the device is higher, up near your face. Well, in a choice between comfort and safety with minimum clusterfuckage, I'm going to go with the latter every time - particularly if the discomfort is only minor.
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fresh
Feb 11, 2011, 2:43 PM
Post #112 of 151
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vegastradguy wrote: ...i stopped using the guide mode in general about 6 months after i learned the trick on the original reverso...
I hate guide mode for the reasons mentioned, but a month later I'm still working out the twists in my rope after using the munter twice.
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vegastradguy
Feb 11, 2011, 3:27 PM
Post #113 of 151
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fresh wrote: vegastradguy wrote: ...i stopped using the guide mode in general about 6 months after i learned the trick on the original reverso... what trick? I hate guide mode for the reasons mentioned, but a month later I'm still working out the twists in my rope after using the munter twice.
trick = guide mode.
its a trick, nothing more.
and, i should add, if you are doing THAT much lowering when using the guide mode, then you really ought to re-evaluate your use of it. its meant for emergencies...
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cracklover
Feb 11, 2011, 5:12 PM
Post #114 of 151
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People are talking about how great the reverso/atc guide is for bringing up two seconds at once. To me this sounds insane. Take the issues raised so far for taking it out of autoloblocking mode when someone is hanging on it, add a second second, and you have a mess.
When one second falls, the other can't move, right? Until you unblock the fallen climbber, and now to lower one you have to have both strands through redirects or munters and the device is now effectively an ATC in which the climber and belayer strands are parallel, and there are two climbers going in opposite directions you must belay. Yech.
I use a TRE, which has none of these issues, and is excellent for bringing up two seconds. If one falls, you can still move the other rope independently. But frankly I'd use a regular ATC before I'd choose one of those full autoblocking devices considering the nonsense involved. Especially if bringing up two seconds on overhanging terrain.
GO
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madscientist
Feb 11, 2011, 5:56 PM
Post #115 of 151
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cracklover wrote: People are talking about how great the reverso/atc guide is for bringing up two seconds at once. To me this sounds insane. Take the issues raised so far for taking it out of autoloblocking mode when someone is hanging on it, add a second second, and you have a mess. When one second falls, the other can't move, right? Until you unblock the fallen climbber, and now to lower one you have to have both strands through redirects or munters and the device is now effectively an ATC in which the climber and belayer strands are parallel, and there are two climbers going in opposite directions you must belay. Yech. I use a TRE, which has none of these issues, and is excellent for bringing up two seconds. If one falls, you can still move the other rope independently. But frankly I'd use a regular ATC before I'd choose one of those full autoblocking devices considering the nonsense involved. Especially if bringing up two seconds on overhanging terrain. GO
When one second falls, the other second can still climb. If you are lowing the climbers often in autoblock mode, then you are in for a long day and should consider rigging things differently or using a different device.
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cracklover
Feb 11, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #116 of 151
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madscientist wrote: cracklover wrote: People are talking about how great the reverso/atc guide is for bringing up two seconds at once. To me this sounds insane. Take the issues raised so far for taking it out of autoloblocking mode when someone is hanging on it, add a second second, and you have a mess. When one second falls, the other can't move, right? Until you unblock the fallen climbber, and now to lower one you have to have both strands through redirects or munters and the device is now effectively an ATC in which the climber and belayer strands are parallel, and there are two climbers going in opposite directions you must belay. Yech. I use a TRE, which has none of these issues, and is excellent for bringing up two seconds. If one falls, you can still move the other rope independently. But frankly I'd use a regular ATC before I'd choose one of those full autoblocking devices considering the nonsense involved. Especially if bringing up two seconds on overhanging terrain. GO When one second falls, the other second can still climb. If you are lowing the climbers often in autoblock mode, then you are in for a long day and should consider rigging things differently or using a different device.
Really? If a second is hanging on the device in auto-block mode, you can still move the other second's rope without unblocking the device?
Even if so, you will need to unblock the device to lower the one second, and as soon as you do that, the second second's belay strand is now parallel unless you rig up both through a whatever.
GO
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madscientist
Feb 11, 2011, 9:30 PM
Post #117 of 151
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cracklover wrote: madscientist wrote: cracklover wrote: People are talking about how great the reverso/atc guide is for bringing up two seconds at once. To me this sounds insane. Take the issues raised so far for taking it out of autoloblocking mode when someone is hanging on it, add a second second, and you have a mess. When one second falls, the other can't move, right? Until you unblock the fallen climbber, and now to lower one you have to have both strands through redirects or munters and the device is now effectively an ATC in which the climber and belayer strands are parallel, and there are two climbers going in opposite directions you must belay. Yech. I use a TRE, which has none of these issues, and is excellent for bringing up two seconds. If one falls, you can still move the other rope independently. But frankly I'd use a regular ATC before I'd choose one of those full autoblocking devices considering the nonsense involved. Especially if bringing up two seconds on overhanging terrain. GO When one second falls, the other second can still climb. If you are lowing the climbers often in autoblock mode, then you are in for a long day and should consider rigging things differently or using a different device. Really? If a second is hanging on the device in auto-block mode, you can still move the other second's rope without unblocking the device? Even if so, you will need to unblock the device to lower the one second, and as soon as you do that, the second second's belay strand is now parallel unless you rig up both through a whatever. GO
You can still move the other seconds rope without unblocking the device. You are correct on the second point. If you are planning on lowering your second, or need to lower a second often, the atc guide or reverso 3 in the autoblock mode is not the best option, in my opinion. It is really not even a good option if you are lowering the second often.
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olderic
Feb 11, 2011, 10:02 PM
Post #118 of 151
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Gabe,
BITD (late 70's) I was with a group that did lots of climbing as groups of 3. Two seconds following each tied into a single 9 (the standard for double ropes in the day). For the belay device - well there was really only 1 choice - a 2 slot Stitch plate. We practiced and "perfected" (one could argue if we achieved that) at the Gunks, Cathedral and Cannon and eventually used the techniques in the alpine - Bugs and Tetons. We usually arranged it so the seconds went "single file" - one about 15 feet above the other (yes it's easy to concoct a scenario where #1 falls on #2). If there was a distinct crux the seconds would usually do it one at a time. We weren't very concerned about the possibility of lowering as we were usually doing this on terrain that was one to 2 full grades below our abilities. A fall would be caused by an accidental slip or a hold breaking - the climber was going to get up under their own steam eventually.
So did we actually save any time doing this? maybe. we thought we did at the time.
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patto
Feb 11, 2011, 11:50 PM
Post #119 of 151
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All this discussion about them being dangerous or a mere gimmick is crazy.
They are safe for the numerous reasons mentioned.
They are highly useful at improving the speed of the party. Massive difference in 3s, smaller differnce in 2s. I can eat, put on a jacket/fleece and organise the rack while safely belaying with a autolock device. Efficiency is important and improves safety on longer climbs.
But I'm done trying to convince people who are stuck in their ways. I use it. Most of my friends use it. We are happy.
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jt512
Feb 12, 2011, 12:01 AM
Post #120 of 151
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patto wrote: They are highly useful at improving the speed of the party. Massive difference in 3s, smaller differnce in 2s. I can eat, put on a jacket/fleece and organise the rack while safely belaying with a autolock device.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you hear "up rope" a lot.
Jay
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patto
Feb 12, 2011, 12:22 AM
Post #121 of 151
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jt512 wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you hear "up rope" a lot.
No.
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jt512
Feb 12, 2011, 12:52 AM
Post #122 of 151
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you hear "up rope" a lot. No.
Well, you've convinced me. I've always wanted to belay two seconds hands-off while eating a sandwich. I'm gettin' me an ATC-Guide right now.
Jay
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csproul
Feb 12, 2011, 1:05 AM
Post #123 of 151
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jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you hear "up rope" a lot. No. Well, you've convinced me. I've always wanted to belay two seconds hands-off while eating a sandwich. I'm gettin' me an ATC-Guide right now. Jay
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kaizen
Feb 12, 2011, 1:12 AM
Post #124 of 151
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jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you hear "up rope" a lot. No. Well, you've convinced me. I've always wanted to belay two seconds hands-off while eating a sandwich. I'm gettin' me an ATC-Guide right now. Jay
That has always been my biggest issue with people using the device in the autoblock configuration. If someone wants to belay me with "Guide mode on," that is fine, as long as they are attentive and keep their hand on the brake strand at all times. No excuses not to.
I have an ATC Guide, and I will occasionally use it in the autoblock config if I know the only reason I'll have to lower a climber is in an emergency situation. Too many users treat it like a GriGri. I've never understood why people who know they are going to lower someone continue to use it in autoblock.
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jt512
Feb 12, 2011, 1:24 AM
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csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you hear "up rope" a lot. No. Well, you've convinced me. I've always wanted to belay two seconds hands-off while eating a sandwich. I'm gettin' me an ATC-Guide right now. Jay But you'd have to climb more than single pitch sport climbs!
Yeah, you're right. Never mind.
Jay
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