no my argument is that 7 kn is simply sufficient for climbing ... and many manuf and the uiaa agree ... otherwise they simply would not accept 7 kn OG rating

most climbers simply climb on gear ... i dont know of any who have said "well gee whiz, i wont climb on your neutrinos because they only have a 7 kn og rating"

i find it absolutely hypocritical to harp on the OG rating without considering the cross loading rating of which the quite expensive WC helium is "only" 7 kn ... unless we believe that well never cross load ever ...

so unless you "check" your partners gear, refuse to climb on the "less safe" biners that your partner has, and dont cross load ... its all simpy academic

you can easily be "safer" by using lockers at every bolt, they are so light these days anyways ... i dont know of anyone who does this however ... most just climb on the gear they can get, and i really dont think they die .... until they come on rc

No one else knows of any either, because no one here has said that

what % of climbers do YOU know can tell you the og, xloaded, and closed rating of EVERY biner they climb on ...

So your argument is that most open gate failures are nose-hooked failures? That's a pretty weak reach from my perspective. Personally I would be stunned to learn that nose-hook failures accounted for more than a single digit percentage of open gate failures.

6 kn open gate rating ... just one of the most popular lockers ive seen being used ...

now someone will say "its a locker so the gate should never be open" ... but as evidenced by that german report ... lockers can come undone, or not be locked for a multitude of reasons ...

and yes petzl still does make and sell em ... and they arent exactly "cheap bottom end" either ...

hmmmmmmm

[image]http://www.petzl.com/files/imagecache/product_outdoor_slideshow_image/files/node_media/7706-1.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.petzl.com/files/imagecache/product_outdoor_slideshow_image/files/node_media/7705-1.jpg[/image]

You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper! It IS a locker and should not have an open gate! If I'm using a single locker in a mission critical place, then it for sure is in a place that I can ensure it stays locked...i.e. right nearby me. If it is in a place I cannot monitor it and I thought it important enough to use a locker, it gets a second carabiner.

And to answer one of your earlier questions...yes, I generally do use my stronger biners/draws low on sport routes where higher forces are more likely and where an open gate failure has higher consequences.

Are you sure you wanted to reply to me? If so, why?

Jim

ill post up the BD response once i can access those emails ... after that i wont bother responding ...

its pretty obvious that no matter what the UIAA, camp, bd and other companies/org that test this equipment every day say ... there will be some rc "experts" who will always insist they are always right ...

the bottom line is that i put more faith in the credible sources whose equipment i use every day and who are liable if anything goes wrong ... than some guy on the internet that insist they know it all

apologies to the REAL experts here who do work in the industry ... i dont lump you among those rc "experts"

im sure this thread will go on and on about how rc "experts" know best ... and that all gumbies will die if we dont follow what they say ...

the truth is, people just climb on the certified gear they trust their life to, and they dont usually die ...



The 7KN open gate rating on the Nano is completely safe and appropriate for climbing and all climbing related activities. Your described use of the Nano is perfect. If it were not adequate - The UIAA and CE the two governing bodies for rating and testing of climbing equipment would not certify them.

The 7KN rating is a very large force that is equivalent to seven times the weight of a 224 lb weight (1568lbs). A huge force. Since the wire gate on the Nano is fairly small and somewhat stiffer than our competitors the likelihood of gate whiplash is almost completely eliminated. Leaving the only way to create a gate open situation with the Nano - pressing or snagging the gate on a protrusion on the rock and opening it. Which is dificult to do in many climbing situations due to the size of the Nano and the angle of the rock being climbed. But again even if it did occur the 7kn rating is completely safe. The average 160-180lb climber would have to have almost reached terminal velocity 9.8M/S sq. durrubg a fall (Remember High School Physics) to come close generating this amount of force. With the modern climbing rope limiting impact force, friction in the system, belayers getting pulled around it is very very dificult to create a senario that 7KN can be created, much less exceded.

Feel free to ask any additional follow up questions. We love giving feedback directly to other climbers.

CAMP USA

Whoever wrote that needs to review their high school physics.

Jay

why dont you take it directly up with camp mista jay ... since you obviously know more than they do ...

theyve only been making and testing climbing gear for god knows how long ...

maybe you can show that they dont know anything ...

put up .. or shut up

C.A.M.P. USA Inc.
580 Burbank Street, Ste 155
Broomfield, CO 80020

(303) 465-9429

climbing@camp-usa.com

23-25 closed, 7-8 og, 7-8 xloaded on my rack

if anything, this discussion amongst us gentleman has at least allowed me to the opportunity to review my gear list.

In my opinion, the chances of me falling on an open-gate biner are small.

How many recorded incidents of falls breaking open gate carabiners do we have on record, Jay?

Well, quite a few, actually, but that's not particularly relevant to my question,
Jay

Oh really? How many exactly. I'd like a number please, not an assertion. After all, you are the one that says that it is warranted... surely you have some evidence for your claim :D

Obviously I don't know how many exactly. Chris Harmston said he was aware of about 2 dozen in the 8 years that he was with BD. Most of those involved BD carabiners, not because BD biners are worse than anyone else's, but presumably because when your BD biner breaks you send it to BD for inspection. If we assume that open-gate failures are distributed uniformly across brands, then failures should be proportional to market share. What was BD's market share in 2000? Let's say, generously, 25%. Then, there should have been about 48 open-gate failures reported to manufacturers in that 8 year period. Conservatively, adding in 25% for unreported failures, brings the estimate up to 60 over 8 years.

So, there's my back-of-the-envelope estimate.

Plus, we have three or four reported just in this thread (by csproul, Jim Titt, and possibly someone else).

Now that I've answered your question to the best of my ability, will you finally answer mine: What makes you think that falls onto open-gate biners are rare?

Jay

First off, a grand total of 60 biners (this is being gracious here... who knows if they were really broken from cross-loading or other issues) accross the entire market over 8 years is an exceptionally small number. Look at that over total number of biners out there over that 8 year time period. Then look at the number of falls taken (like what... 1 million falls?). Then look at that compared to the number of biners broken. Then look at that number again, reduced to only people that were only hurt. Then people that were only killed. To date in this thread, there is only one case of one person dying (Goran Kropp) from a supposedly open gate carabiner failure.

So really, the hard evidence is that over the last 20 years or so, we only have one recorded case of someone dying from most likely an open gate carabiner failure. That's all I'm pointing out... the numbers dont support the "R.I.P." proposition that many in this thread are trying to establish.

How do I come to my conclusion that the number of falls on open-gates is small? Mostly deductively, since there have never been any studies that I have seen looking at gates during falls.

1. Carabiners have springs in the gates. This keeps the natural state of the biner in an always closed position; this is a predictable behavior for the biner. I'm sure that this is quite obvious to everyone. The only things that would cause the gate to be open are it being pushed by something (ie, a rock protrusion) or by force being translated through the biner to cause the gate to flutter (buy some wiregates... BD hotwire: 9kn open-gate strength!), none of which occurs with any frequency compared to normal falls. Aside from these 2 possibilities, there really isn't a good reason for the gate to be open. One can easily inspect how a biner is positioned when hanging to mitigate these possibilities.

2. When I watch people fall, I have never seen or heard a gate open. Not conclusive, but certainly nothing supporting the fact that it is opening during a normal fall.

3. If there are few cases of broken o.g. biners, fewer cases of climbers hurt by them, and only one case of someone dying from one, it stands to reason that normal falls do not occur on open-gate biners. If they did, we would certainly see higher numbers of accidents and injuries.

So there are my reasons for saying that the numbers are small. Is my logic perfect? Probably not, but I can't find any sufficient holes to think otherwise, especially when looking at the real world.

At the end of the day, the reality of an open gate failure seems to come down to an issue of gate flutter (which can be avoided by going with wire-gates), poorly place bolts (or poorly extended draws), or poorly positioned/rotated biners. It's up to every climber to decide if a 2kN difference will be enough to save them if they do one of these things wrong.

On a side note, it's worth noting that if your life ever depends on a single biner (ie, your previous clip wont keep you off the deck), then you should perhaps consider whether it is worth climbing or what you can do to mitigate the problem.