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jt512
May 31, 2011, 4:52 AM
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patto wrote: funnelator wrote: If other climbers are around it helps a lot for both the belayer and climber to use names. 100% agree. I always, always use names and I always always ask for confirmation. I don't care if I can see the climber, I won't take somebody off belay unless I here confirmation with my name.
That has little to no relevance in the typical lowering-vs-rappelling miscommunication accident. It's not a question of who said "off belay"; it's that the climber didn't understand what "off belay" means in the first place.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 31, 2011, 6:33 AM)
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funnelator
May 31, 2011, 11:01 AM
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Is there a "typical" lowering-vs rappelling miscommunication accident? Seems like there are lots of variations on the theme which is why, although redundant ad nauseum, perhaps it's good to keep having these kinds of discussions, at least as long as people keep having these kinds of accidents.
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patto
May 31, 2011, 1:00 PM
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funnelator wrote: Is there a "typical" lowering-vs rappelling miscommunication accident?
The one thing that can be relied upon is that people will continually find novel as well as traditional ways to hurt themselves.
Though 95% of these accidents can be prevented by the climber asking him/herself.
Is my next action going to make me unsafe?
Time and time again climbers weight ropes which are not secured. Time and time again belayers and rappelers run out of rope with disastrous consequences.
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j_ung
May 31, 2011, 2:29 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: A few weeks ago, a climber gave me a new reason why he didn't need to tie a knot in the rope while belaying me: "The rope is 70 meters ". Oh well, another excuse for developing bad habits. Cheers, Rob.calm
Depending on the length of the climb, it's a perfectly legitimate reason. If it were you and I on a 20-meter climb with a 70-meter rope I might say exactly the same thing. I mean come on, 50 meters of rope on the ground doesn't equal a closed system?
There's only one habit worth developing: evaluate every situation and choose your practices accordingly.
(This post was edited by j_ung on May 31, 2011, 2:35 PM)
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jt512
May 31, 2011, 4:21 PM
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funnelator wrote: Is there a "typical" lowering-vs rappelling miscommunication accident?
Yep. Climber reaches anchors, clips in, and says, "Off belay." Belayer responds, "Belay off," and takes climber off belay. Climber threads rope through anchors, ties back in, cleans anchors, weights rope, decks.
Jay
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funnelator
May 31, 2011, 11:35 PM
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Funny. Neither of the rappelling vs lowering miscommunication accidents I have personal knowledge of went down that way.
Where do you get "typical" from Jay? A statistical analysis? Your personal observations of posts on the internet? A Magic Hat?
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redlude97
May 31, 2011, 11:40 PM
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funnelator wrote: Funny. Neither of the rappelling vs lowering miscommunication accidents I have personal knowledge of went down that way. Where do you get "typical" from Jay? A statistical analysis? Your personal observations of posts on the internet? A Magic Hat?
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 12:08 AM
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In both instances the climbers were out of site but within earshot of the belayers.
In the first accident, the climber assumed he would be lowered and the belayer assumed the climber was rapping. No words were exchanged.
In the second accident, the climber said "take me up" and the belayer heard "take me off". No confirmation was requested or given before the climber committed his weight to the rope.
In both accidents the climbers fell to the ground.
Each of these teams had climbed extensively together.
These two accidents remind me of a pair I climbed next to long ago who used different intonations of just one word, "Dude", for almost every climbing command. I was at an anchor next to the climber when he arrived. Dude first meant "I'm off belay", next "you're on belay", next "climbing", and finally "climb on", all with slightly different enunciations and tone. They both looked stoned. As no one got hurt is was pretty funny really.
(This post was edited by funnelator on Jun 1, 2011, 12:24 AM)
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jakedatc
Jun 1, 2011, 1:09 AM
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funnelator wrote: In both instances the climbers were out of site but within earshot of the belayers. In the first accident, the climber assumed he would be lowered and the belayer assumed the climber was rapping. No words were exchanged. In the second accident, the climber said "take me up" and the belayer heard "take me off". No confirmation was requested or given before the climber committed his weight to the rope. In both accidents the climbers fell to the ground. Each of these teams had climbed extensively together. These two accidents remind me of a pair I climbed next to long ago who used different intonations of just one word, "Dude", for almost every climbing command. I was at an anchor next to the climber when he arrived. Dude first meant "I'm off belay", next "you're on belay", next "climbing", and finally "climb on", all with slightly different enunciations and tone. They both looked stoned. As no one got hurt is was pretty funny really.
Interesting idea.. Less is definitely better. "take" and "lower" are all i use. full sentences are definitely going to cause confusion in hard to hear situations. at a busy crag i'll say their name first.
but as Jay has said.. *most* of the time in sport climbing you should never be off belay so it shouldn't be expected.
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 1:31 AM
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funnelator wrote: Funny. Neither of the rappelling vs lowering miscommunication accidents I have personal knowledge of went down that way.
Golly. Two whole data points.
Jay
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 1:47 AM
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Haha.
And you have how many Jay? Where is your data set? Are you hiding it along with your prescriptive easement law references? :-)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 1:51 AM
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funnelator wrote: Haha. And you have how many Jay?
All I have is what I've been reading on the internet for the last 20 years. These erroneous "off belay" errors occur with regularity. There's one, maybe two, that have been discussed here in the last month or so. What else is there to miscommunicate in a rappelling-vs-lowering miscommunication accident, anyway?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2011, 1:51 AM)
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 2:18 AM
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I've been reading about them for the last 20 years too, in addition to talking with the two climbers I personally know who have been hurt in some these accidents.
To me there seems to be no typical.
J_ung's comment upthread "there's only one habit worth developing: evaluate every situation and choose your practices accordingly" seems very on target.
(This post was edited by funnelator on Jun 1, 2011, 2:19 AM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 2:30 AM
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funnelator wrote: I've been reading about them for the last 20 years too, in addition to talking with the two climbers I personally know who have been hurt in some these accidents. To me there seems to be no typical.
Although not obvious from your last post, we've been talking specifically about "lowering-vs-rappelling miscommunication accidents." Besides the climber erroneously saying "off belay," I'm having difficulty thinking of what else could be miscommunicated that would lead to such an accident. I've been predicting for a few years now that there is going to be an accident because some n00b confused the meanings of "lowering" and "rappelling," and recently I've speculated that eventually there will be an accident because the term "on belay" is becoming confused with the term "belaying," but I haven't seen examples of either of those . . . yet. So, what other miscommunications are you aware of that have occurred in lowering-vs-rappelling miscommunication accidents, and how frequently do you think they occur compared with erroneous declarations of "off belay" that go unquestioned by the belayer?
Jay
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 2:49 AM
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Jay, I don't have data, or any meaningful analysis. My point is that you don't either. It's not a big point. Why are you so driven to prove that your perception of "typical" based on your reading of anecdotal reporting on the internet is correct?
If you or someone else does some research, collects data, does some statistical analysis, and then draws some conclusions, that would be helpful. Absent that you are merely speculating about what is typical.
Perhaps we are just viewing the problem differently. If you are referring to single pitch sport only, your typical may well be right on. I'm thinking of other scenarios too like multi-pitch trad with some resident anchors of varying quality mixed in.
(This post was edited by funnelator on Jun 1, 2011, 2:51 AM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 3:06 AM
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funnelator wrote: Jay, I don't have data, or any meaningful analysis. My point is that you don't either. It's not a big point. Why are you so driven to prove that your perception of "typical" based on your reading of anecdotal reporting on the internet is correct?
I'm not driven to prove that. I casually used the word "typical," and you were driven to turn it into a big point. And now that you're asked to back it up, you're admitting you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're arguing about nothing just for the sake of arguing.
Jay
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moose_droppings
Jun 1, 2011, 3:09 AM
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Your not going to win with Jay.
Had you stated his position first, he'd now be arguing your position.
He is a very good debater, maybe even a master debater.
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patto
Jun 1, 2011, 3:10 AM
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jt512 wrote: ...and recently I've speculated that eventually there will be an accident because the term "on belay" is becoming confused with the term "belaying," but I haven't seen examples of either of those . . . yet.
? So what is this difference between the term "on belay" and belaying? I certainly don't know what you are getting at here.
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 3:11 AM
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jt512 wrote: funnelator wrote: Jay, I don't have data, or any meaningful analysis. My point is that you don't either. It's not a big point. Why are you so driven to prove that your perception of "typical" based on your reading of anecdotal reporting on the internet is correct? I'm not driven to prove that. I casually used the word "typical," and you were driven to turn it into a big point. And now that you're asked to back it up, you're admitting you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're arguing about nothing just for the sake of arguing. Jay
Says the man with 20,000 plus posts. :-)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 3:14 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: ...and recently I've speculated that eventually there will be an accident because the term "on belay" is becoming confused with the term "belaying," but I haven't seen examples of either of those . . . yet. ? So what is this difference between the term "on belay" and belaying? I certainly don't know what you are getting at here.
Climber X and Climber Y are tied in together. X is leading a pitch; he is being belayed by Y. Who is "on belay"?
Jay
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 3:16 AM
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funnelator wrote: jt512 wrote: funnelator wrote: Jay, I don't have data, or any meaningful analysis. My point is that you don't either. It's not a big point. Why are you so driven to prove that your perception of "typical" based on your reading of anecdotal reporting on the internet is correct? I'm not driven to prove that. I casually used the word "typical," and you were driven to turn it into a big point. And now that you're asked to back it up, you're admitting you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're arguing about nothing just for the sake of arguing. Jay Says the man with 20,000 plus posts. :-)
Yeah, but 90% of those are defending against picayune arguments. :)
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2011, 3:16 AM)
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patto
Jun 1, 2011, 3:25 AM
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jt512 wrote: Climber X and Climber Y are tied in together. X is leading a pitch; he is being belayed by Y. Who is "on belay"?
Ok, fair enough I see the distinction you're drawing.
But people need to be aware that climbing calls differ from person to person and region to region. As I leader I would never call "off belay" as I am not belaying.
(This post was edited by patto on Jun 1, 2011, 3:29 AM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 3:33 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Climber X and Climber Y are tied in together. X is leading a pitch; he is being belayed by Y. Who is "on belay"? Ok, fair enough I see the distinction you're drawing.
And it used to be unambiguous. However, there has a been a trend over recent years for an increasing proportion of n00bs to use the term "on belay" to refer to the belayer. I'd say that my impression is that it's gotten to the point that the majority of n00bs use the term in that manner, except that funnelator—clearly not a Bayesian—has deemed that subjectivity has no place in statistical inference. I'm not even sure that I can still make a statement about the trend without a dataset to back it up.
Jay
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spikeddem
Jun 1, 2011, 5:41 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Climber X and Climber Y are tied in together. X is leading a pitch; he is being belayed by Y. Who is "on belay"? Ok, fair enough I see the distinction you're drawing. But people need to be aware that climbing calls differ from person to person and region to region. As I leader I would never call "off belay" as I am not belaying.
As a belayer, I always say "belay is on" or "belay is off." As a leader, I say, "I'm safe" (I make sure the person I'm climbing with is familiar with exactly what I mean when I say it . . . before I start climbing). If I don't say "I'm safe," then I'd say "off belay."
As far as I'm concerned, "on belay" and "off belay" are instructions, not adjectives. I get a bit iffy when I hear belayers use the term "on belay" after their leader clips the first protection. Sounds like these peeps are the ones that may have potential for some miscommunication later.
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shockabuku
Jun 1, 2011, 6:33 AM
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spikeddem wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Climber X and Climber Y are tied in together. X is leading a pitch; he is being belayed by Y. Who is "on belay"? Ok, fair enough I see the distinction you're drawing. But people need to be aware that climbing calls differ from person to person and region to region. As I leader I would never call "off belay" as I am not belaying. As a belayer, I always say "belay is on" or "belay is off." As a leader, I say, "I'm safe" (I make sure the person I'm climbing with is familiar with exactly what I mean when I say it . . . before I start climbing). If I don't say "I'm safe," then I'd say "off belay." As far as I'm concerned, "on belay" and "off belay" are instructions, not adjectives. I get a bit iffy when I hear belayers use the term "on belay" after their leader clips the first protection. Sounds like these peeps are the ones that may have potential for some miscommunication later.
I don't understand what you mean by "instructions". I use the terms to mean the climber is either being belayed or not, though I have to admit to some gray area when I take the climber off belay. I usually don't sound off with "off belay" until I have the rope out of the belay device since the climber usually pulls slack at that point though I have to admit they are off belay as soon as I let go of the rope.
Unless you're in a situation where the leader may fall below the belayer (multi-pitch, steep base of climb), you're not really on belay until you clip the first piece and the belayer has control of the rope, i.e. if they're spotting you until then.
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