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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 6:50 AM
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patto wrote: But people need to be aware that climbing calls differ from person to person and region to region. As I leader I would never call "off belay" as I am not belaying.
Actually, you would never call "off belay" as a leader because you're a Euro. In America, it is standard practice for the leader to call "off belay" when he gets to the anchors when he actually wants the belayer to take him off belay. It's not a comment, like "safe" is (not that we actually do "safe" here); it's a command: "Take me off belay."
The problem occurs when a climber who intends to be lowered calls "off belay" at the anchors, erroneously thinking it's just a comment, and the belayer correctly interprets it as what it's been for the last 25 years or more: a command. Even the standard confirmation, "You're off belay," is no help in this situation, since the climber would likely just interpret it as the belayer confirming that the climber is "safe."
As a number of us have been saying for years, there is no reason to tell the belayer that you are "safe" at the end of a single-pitch sport climb. "Take," "slack," and "lower" are just about the only words the leader needs to say at the anchors, unless he intends to rappel. Then he should say "off belay," and the belayer should respond, "Do you plan to rappel?" to which (assuming it's true) the climber should respond with the full sentence, "Yes, I plan to rappel." Then, the belayer should say, "I'm taking you off belay," and he should wait for another confirmation from the climber before actually doing so.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2011, 7:11 AM)
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patto
Jun 1, 2011, 6:56 AM
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As long as both climbers know what is going on and can communicate clearly then the exact words don't really matter as they vary from climber to climber.
Sport climbers who call OFF-BELAY and then expect to get lowered aren't merely guilty of mis-communicating but are making a fundamental procedural mistake. You don't go off belay and then expect to be put back on belay.
My calls:
On belay [CLIMBER NAME], climb when ready.
Climbing.
Take, slack, etc.
[BELAYER NAME] I'm SAFE.
[CLIMBER NAME] Are you safe?
Yes [BELAYER NAME], I'm SAFE.
Ok, off Belay [CLIMBER NAME].
Thanks
...
..
.
Thats me!
{Go to step 1}
(This post was edited by patto on Jun 1, 2011, 6:57 AM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 7:04 AM
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patto wrote: As long as both climbers know what is going on and can communicate clearly then the exact words don't really matter as they vary from climber to climber. Sport climbers who call OFF-BELAY and then expect to get lowered aren't merely guilty of mis-communicating but are making a fundamental procedural mistake. You don't go off belay and then expect to be put back on belay. My calls: On belay [CLIMBER NAME], climb when ready. Climbing. Take, slack, etc. [BELAYER NAME] I'm SAFE. [CLIMBER NAME] Are you safe? Yes [BELAYER NAME], I'm SAFE. Ok, off Belay [CLIMBER NAME]. Thanks
Nice illustration of the useless "safe" comment.
Giving this a little more thought, I suspect that all comments from the leader are unnecessary, and hence just an unnecessary opportunity for miscommunication. There is no reason to say "safe." At the top of a single-pitch climb, if you intend to be lowered, say nothing. If you intend to rappel, give the unambiguous command, "off belay."
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2011, 7:09 AM)
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patto
Jun 1, 2011, 7:17 AM
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jt512 wrote: Nice illustration of the useless "safe" comment. Giving this a little more thought, I suspect that all comments from the leader are unnecessary, and hence just an unnecessary opportunity for miscommunication. There is no reason to say "safe."
As I have said I never call 'OFF BELAY' as a climber. 'SAFE' is just as clear an unambiguous, it is a statement. Whereas presumably a climber when he calls 'OFF BELAY' it is a request.
jt512 wrote: At the top of a single-pitch climb, if you intend to be lowered, say nothing. If you intend to rappel, give the unambiguous command, "off belay." Jay
(This post was edited by patto on Jun 1, 2011, 7:21 AM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 8:16 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Nice illustration of the useless "safe" comment. Giving this a little more thought, I suspect that all comments from the leader are unnecessary, and hence just an unnecessary opportunity for miscommunication. There is no reason to say "safe." As I have said I never call 'OFF BELAY' as a climber. 'SAFE' is just as clear an unambiguous, it is a statement. Whereas presumably a climber when he calls 'OFF BELAY' it is a request. jt512 wrote: At the top of a single-pitch climb, if you intend to be lowered, say nothing. If you intend to rappel, give the unambiguous command, "off belay." Jay
Apologize for the first question, and then maybe I'll answer the second one.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2011, 8:24 AM)
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patto
Jun 1, 2011, 8:37 AM
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I wasn't seeking advice, I was seeking explanation. For that reason I am not desperate to apologise for defending how I communicate with my climbing partners.
You were the one suggesting that the way I communicate was 'useless' and 'ambiguous'. If you want to justify yourself then feel free to.
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 8:42 AM
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patto wrote: Why does anything that is different from how you do things wrong in you mind Jay?
patto wrote: I wasn't seeking advice, I was seeking explanation.
Funny way to ask for it.
Jay
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shockabuku
Jun 1, 2011, 10:31 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Nice illustration of the useless "safe" comment. Giving this a little more thought, I suspect that all comments from the leader are unnecessary, and hence just an unnecessary opportunity for miscommunication. There is no reason to say "safe." Why does anything that is different from how you do things wrong in you mind Jay? As I have said I never call 'OFF BELAY' as a climber. 'SAFE' is just as clear an unambiguous, it is a statement. Whereas presumably a climber when he calls 'OFF BELAY' it is a request. jt512 wrote: At the top of a single-pitch climb, if you intend to be lowered, say nothing. If you intend to rappel, give the unambiguous command, "off belay." Jay So what is wrong with 'SAFE' rather than 'OFF BELAY'?
Interesting. At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business. Also, I am effectively no longer on belay when my belayer lowers me to the ground.
I think Jay is right, the command "safe" is superfluous and perhaps somewhat confusing. What's really the point if you're not telling your belayer that the belay is no longer needed - meaning you are no longer on belay?
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viciado
Jun 1, 2011, 10:45 AM
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In reply to: When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business.
This (bolded) is the problem with using the term "off belay" on single pitch sport routes. Once the leader calls Off Belay, the belayer's job is essentially "done" and they tend to move on to other things. The reality is that in most cases on this type of route, they are not "done" and should continue to tend the belay because they will be lowering. Slack, Take, and Lower should be sufficient for that process. Only when the leader truly plans to be off belay (to then rap), should they request to be Off Belay. "K.I.S.S." is still a good principle.
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jakedatc
Jun 1, 2011, 11:23 AM
Post #85 of 182
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viciado wrote: In reply to: When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business.This (bolded) is the problem with using the term "off belay" on single pitch sport routes. Once the leader calls Off Belay, the belayer's job is essentially "done" and they tend to move on to other things. The reality is that in most cases on this type of route, they are not "done" and should continue to tend the belay because they will be lowering. Slack, Take, and Lower should be sufficient for that process. Only when the leader truly plans to be off belay (to then rap), should they request to be Off Belay. "K.I.S.S." is still a good principle.
exactly... if someone calls off belay i'm gone. i could be 10' away or across the crag checking out the next route I want to do.
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shockabuku
Jun 1, 2011, 12:14 PM
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viciado wrote: In reply to: When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business.This (bolded) is the problem with using the term "off belay" on single pitch sport routes. Once the leader calls Off Belay, the belayer's job is essentially "done" and they tend to move on to other things. The reality is that in most cases on this type of route, they are not "done" and should continue to tend the belay because they will be lowering. Slack, Take, and Lower should be sufficient for that process. Only when the leader truly plans to be off belay (to then rap), should they request to be Off Belay. "K.I.S.S." is still a good principle.
Oh, I see. So on a single pitch sport route, although I clip into the anchor (when I'm cleaning the route), I don't call "off belay" because I still want the belayer to be responsible to catch me if I should fall and am anticipating him/her lowering me. I do only give instruction for slack, to take and then lower. I suppose I'm confusing different scenarios in my mind. Frankly, I don't usually use "on belay" or "off belay" much anymore when sport climbing except with people I don't climb with very much - which I guess is when it is most important.
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 12:28 PM
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As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.
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patto
Jun 1, 2011, 1:41 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Interesting. At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay,
shockabuku wrote: I think Jay is right, the command "safe" is superfluous and perhaps somewhat confusing. What's really the point if you're not telling your belayer that the belay is no longer needed - meaning you are no longer on belay?
Again I'm not saying anybody is WRONG. I am just saying how I have managed to effectively and efficiently communicate with my partners.
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bearbreeder
Jun 1, 2011, 1:48 PM
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the solution is exceedingly simple
NEVER say off belay unless you want to be taken off belay with the name
the belayer NEVER takes the person off belay unless the climber asks to be off belay with the name ... when you do confirm the off belay
if the belayer start feeling the rope pull then he should just keep feeding it through his belay device if he didnt hear off belay clearly .....
when in doubt about the call NEVER take the climber off belay ....
when the climber is in doubt about the belayer receiving a call, either self lower or rappel ...
follow those rules and generally there wont be too many issues
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 1, 2011, 1:50 PM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 2:49 PM
Post #90 of 182
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funnelator wrote: As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.
Except that the nature of a miscommunication accident is that the belayer and the climber thought that they did understand each other. The reason that climbers have been using standardized verbal signals for at least as long as I've been climbing is to avoid such misunderstandings. The last signal you want to have a personal definition of is "off belay."
Jay
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 2:54 PM
Post #91 of 182
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bearbreeder wrote: the solution is exceedingly simple NEVER say off belay unless you want to be taken off belay with the name the belayer NEVER takes the person off belay unless the climber asks to be off belay with the name ... when you do confirm the off belay
As I said up-thread this "simple solution" is useless if the climber and the belayer think that "off belay" mean different things, which is exactly how so many of these lowering-vs-rappelling miscommunication accidents happen.
Jay
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michael1245
Jun 1, 2011, 3:01 PM
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funnelator wrote: As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.
Yes.
"hey, buddy...when I reach the anchors, I'm going to clip in. After I clip in, I'll yell BOOYASHAKA! and that means I'm safe you can take me off of belay"
As long as it's understood.
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markc
Jun 1, 2011, 3:03 PM
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funnelator wrote: As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.
I don't think anyone can argue that point, but let's say for the sake of argument that my partner and I regularly misuse common climbing terminology. We know what we mean, so it doesn't matter to us. We join another group of climbers, and then there is chaos. A common language with clearly defined terms is best, and unnecessarily expanding it can muddy the waters.
When toproping with some partners in the gym, we fell into the habit of saying, "Okay," when we reached the top of the wall. In that context there's not much else to do but lower the climber, but I make an effort eliminate "okay" from my climbing vocabulary. It doesn't travel well, and I don't want to bring that to the top of a sport crag or midway up a multipitch route.
Safe is somewhat similar. When my partner says she's safe, I assume she's directly connected to the anchor. That's all well and good, but as the belayer I still don't know what I'm to do next. Making a false assumption could cause disaster. As a result, I'll just sit there maintaining the belay until instructed otherwise. I feel it's better to just give the next clear command. Yell, "Off belay," if you're preparing to rappel or take up rope and belay the second. Yell, "Slack," if you're preparing to lower off and need rope to thread.
Ultimately, I want to know what my partner is planning to do before she leaves the ground. If she's the last climber and she's cleaning the anchor, how's she planning to get down? It's better to decide that when communication is easy. In those rare times when the plan changes, you have to be absolutely certain everyone is on the same page. If the command given by the climber varies from what you expect, double-check before acting on it.
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 3:05 PM
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michael1245 wrote: funnelator wrote: As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say. Yes. "hey, buddy...when I reach the anchors, I'm going to clip in. After I clip in, I'll yell BOOYASHAKA! and that means I'm safe you can take me off of belay"
That still seems to come down to what "off [of] belay" means.
Jay
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michael1245
Jun 1, 2011, 3:17 PM
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it means that I am no longer dependent on the climbing rope for my saftey. in the situation I described, I reached anchors and clipped into them.
it is confusing, and not everyone adopts a uniform standard of communication.
for example...you order a hoagie, grinder, sub, hero and they're all "sandwiches", but not everyone will know what exactly you're asking for.
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funnelator
Jun 1, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Standardization is great for newbies. After that people improvise. That they improvise in a way you don't agree with doesn't necessarily make them any less safe.
And I didn't say as long as the climber and belayer think they are communicating effectively.
Jay, you are a consummate sophist in that you post adroitly but often speciously and without substance. And you have last word-itis.
I'm out on this topic. Have fun.
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cracklover
Jun 1, 2011, 3:43 PM
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shockabuku wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: Nice illustration of the useless "safe" comment. Giving this a little more thought, I suspect that all comments from the leader are unnecessary, and hence just an unnecessary opportunity for miscommunication. There is no reason to say "safe." Why does anything that is different from how you do things wrong in you mind Jay? As I have said I never call 'OFF BELAY' as a climber. 'SAFE' is just as clear an unambiguous, it is a statement. Whereas presumably a climber when he calls 'OFF BELAY' it is a request. jt512 wrote: At the top of a single-pitch climb, if you intend to be lowered, say nothing. If you intend to rappel, give the unambiguous command, "off belay." Jay So what is wrong with 'SAFE' rather than 'OFF BELAY'? Interesting. At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business. Also, I am effectively no longer on belay when my belayer lowers me to the ground.
Regarding the bolded part above - what? You most certainly are on belay as your belayer lowers you to the ground! If you think you're not, and communicate as such, I'm sorry to say this, but you're an accident waiting to happen.
GO
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 4:00 PM
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funnelator wrote: Standardization is great for newbies. After that people improvise. That they improvise in a way you don't agree with doesn't necessarily make them any less safe.
Standardization of commands is (or was) great for climbing. You can (or used to be able to) go to pretty much any major crag in North America, pick up a new partner, and be on the same page as far as commands go.
Sure, experienced partners tweak the system as they see fit, but it is beneficial to have a climbing-community-wide set of standard commands to fall back on when climbing with an unfamiliar partner. "Off belay" accidents occur when one climber has his own private definition of that term.
In reply to: And I didn't say as long as the climber and belayer think they are communicating effectively.
You missed my point.
In reply to: Jay, you are a consummate sophist in that you post adroitly but often speciously and without substance. And you have last word-itis.
You ought to look in the mirror before making accusations like those.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 1, 2011, 4:12 PM)
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jt512
Jun 1, 2011, 4:08 PM
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michael1245 wrote: it means that I am no longer dependent on the climbing rope for my saftey. in the situation I described, I reached anchors and clipped into them. it is confusing, and not everyone adopts a uniform standard of communication.
They used to, and they still should, at least as a default for climbing with an unfamiliar partner. Take a look at any popular climbing instruction book written by a North American author in the last...oh...40 years, I'd guess. Same commands, give or take a word. Someone with a better understanding of history than I should be able to tell you what organization introduced the standard belay commands and how they propagated.
In reply to: for example...you order a hoagie, grinder, sub, hero and they're all "sandwiches", but not everyone will know what exactly you're asking for.
That analogy is like a fallen painting: off the wall.
Jay
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k.l.k
Jun 1, 2011, 4:36 PM
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shockabuku wrote: At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay
No, you are not. You are "off belay," if and when your belayer takes you off belay. There is no action you can take, other than cutting the rope or untying, to take yourself off belay.
You need to consider more carefully what the word means and where it comes from.
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