I am aware that it is possible to backup a belayer using an ATC if you have a third person to anchor in and tend a prussik attached to the brake end and a biner on their belay loop. This will prevent decking if the belayer were to drop the rope (due to rope burn or being hit by rockfall).

Is there an method of backing up an ATC belayer without a third person, using either knot or mechanical means?

Currently we are just top roping but I am twice my girlfriend's weight (whew! =P) and worry about her ability to catch a fall, esp a lead fall. I have her using a GRIGRI2 now but if I were to get into leading that won't be very efficient.

I am aware that it is possible to backup a belayer using an ATC if you have a third person to anchor in and tend a prussik attached to the brake end and a biner on their belay loop. This will prevent decking if the belayer were to drop the rope (due to rope burn or being hit by rockfall).

Is there an method of backing up an ATC belayer without a third person, using either knot or mechanical means?

Currently we are just top roping but I am twice my girlfriend's weight (whew! =P) and worry about her ability to catch a fall, esp a lead fall. I have her using a GRIGRI2 now but if I were to get into leading that won't be very efficient.

CF?

Facepalm!

Why do you think using a gri-gri2 would not be "very efficient" when you get into leading? What do you think that device is designed for-- toproping only?

.

I am aware that it is possible to backup a belayer using an ATC if you have a third person to anchor in and tend a prussik attached to the brake end and a biner on their belay loop.

I'm trying to picture this and can't. Can someone describe this setup more accurately?

My confusion could just be a lack of experience with / understand of the ATC. My understanding is that in a fall approaching factor 2, the ATC will let rope though even with the belayer in brake position, potentially burning the belayer's brake hand and causing them to drop the rope. Is this incorrect?

I have only used the ATC in a top rope situation and I felt that it was much easier to take up slack and lower a climber than the GRIGRI1 but did not experience anything greater than maybe a 2-3KN fall which was very easy to hold.

I don't expect a factor 2. I'd like my belay to be able to hold a factor 2.

I am aware that it is possible to backup a belayer using an ATC if you have a third person to anchor in and tend a prussik attached to the brake end and a biner on their belay loop.

This will prevent decking if the belayer were to drop the rope (due to rope burn or being hit by rockfall).

Is there an method of backing up an ATC belayer without a third person, using either knot or mechanical means?

Currently we are just top roping but I am twice my girlfriend's weight (whew! =P) and worry about her ability to catch a fall, esp a lead fall. I have her using a GRIGRI2 now but if I were to get into leading that won't be very efficient.

This makes no sense from beginning to end. I'm really hoping that English isn't your first language, and you've just completely failed to get your ideas across. Because otherwise you seem to misunderstand nearly everything in the belay process.


1 - If you wish to back up a belayer, the above would be a horrible way to do it.

2 - After a belayer has properly learned and demonstrated the ability to belay, no backup belayer should be involved.

3 - An incompetent belayer may drop you with any device, whether it is auto-locking or not.


1 - The belayer should always be aware of the potential danger of rockfall. Some areas have a very low likelihood of rockfall, others a very high likelihood. The belayer should stand out of the way, and should wear a helmet if necessary. Mitigation is 99.9% of the solution, autolocking belay devices are a 0.1% solution to rockfall, at best.

2 - Why the concern about the belayer's hand getting burned? I've seen this happen only twice, and in both cases the rope burn was caused by the belayer dropping the climber, not the other way around. In each case, the belayer was using a poor technique, and the climber fell just at the weak point of the belayer's technique.


Yes, but if you ever have a reason to do so, you've already screwed something else up.


If you weigh twice what your belayer does, anchoring her with a long tether might work well. A grigri might also work well. I don't understand the bit about the grigri being inefficient at all.

GO

You don't have to worry about factor two fall in a single pitch climb, even when leading the climb. On toprope, you are not even coming close to 0.5, let alone factor 2.

Really, it is good that you are thinking about safety, it is. But you are worried about things that are not applicable to your situation. And while you are thinking of ways to mitigate something that is not going to happen, you are likely not paying enough attention to the things that you are likely to encounter.

Please, don't mess up with the prussic backup of the ATC. With a new belayer it is more likely to impede the learning of proper belay stroke than it is likely to increase your safety.

Read the instructions for your gri-gri, watch PETZL's official video of how to lead belay with a gri-gri, and have someone experienced show you and observe you doing it. Have a 3rd person backup, by all means, and practice-practice-practice.

Currently we are just top roping but I am twice my girlfriend's weight (whew! =P) and worry about her ability to catch a fall, esp a lead fall. I have her using a GRIGRI2 now but if I were to get into leading that won't be very efficient.

In hopes of getting you a better more informed response, I would humbly suggest that you clarify your question and maybe break each part down into more readily and easily understood portions so that people might digest it better and be able to offer more concise advice.

Your information is somewhat conflicting. In the quote above, you say that you're top-roping but you're worried about her catching a lead fall. You then question the efficiency of a device for leading when that's what the device was designed for.

I'll tell you like someone told me. If you don't have your shit wired tight, and come in these forums with blanket statements that are conflicting and incorrect, you're gonna get hammered no matter what your original intentions were, or whether or not you truly deserve it. That's just the way it is.

Now, from my experience, if you're just top-roping, you can anchor your woman in somehow, and that should help. Even so, she needs to be aware of the forces that will be put on her in a fall. If she's half your weight, she probably will leave the ground- even in a top rope fall. She should be prepared for this when it happens.

You're on the right track with being concerned about safety and asking questions. You just seem a little misinformed. If you get the majority of your info from other climbers, especially ones that are relatively new to the sport, you're going to be misled. Do some research yourself from as many different credible sources as possible to gain a better understanding of the processes and techniques involved in SAFELY enjoying your desired discipline of climbing. You'll be glad you did, plus, it'll keep you from getting flogged by anti-noob veteran climbers that don't have much patience for misinformation. That's my two cents. Hope it helps.

English is my first language.

You should use better grammar when criticizing my English.

Thanks for the advice.

I see your point. I know the difference between a top roped and a lead fall. Currently, I am top roping. Ultimately, I intend to move on to sport leading and then trad leading multiple pitches. If that was not clear from my original post, it is now.

Accidents can happen top roping as well. That is why I am seeking out information from those more experienced than me. I do not consider it a replacement for research.

Butt-hurt know it all ass clowns are not new to me. They are on every forum. Frequently, they are Google searching everything typed in order to appear brilliant. Everyone is fooled....

Forgive the child like drawing skills.....

Red rope is the prussik loop.

[image]http://i53.tinypic.com/102r1pv.jpg[/image]

So then there is no way to backup an ATC belayer without a third, correct?

So then there is no way to backup an ATC belayer without a third, correct?

Sounds rad that you and your girlfriend are out climbing together.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are toproping just fine with her on a grigri2 but are concerned with her hanging on when catching a lead fall? This concern comes from expecting the grigri to be a pain to lead belay with so you are switching to an ATC. Assuming that's all correct here are my thoughts.

1. Don't mess with the prussik. Yes AMGA uses that in certain situations, I am guessing that your guide might have showed it to you in one way and not meant it to be used in others. If you have a 3rd, then just have them hold the rope and you should be sufficient.

2. The best way to backup a single belayer using an ATC is to teach them solid belay technique and then PRACTICE on toprope. In other words. Go out and build a toprope setup on something steep. Then, have your girlfriend belay with a standard ATC and a friend who is solid to back her up by holding the rope as well as watch and critique her after the climb is done (not during, too distracting). If her belay technique is solid then move on to the next step. Throw a small amount of slack into the toprope line and take a fake lead fall. Again, your buddy is backing her up and she will get the sensation of being lifted off the ground while holding the break with a standard ATC. If she is solid then go for a bit bigger fall. It's important to make sure the slack is on her side, not yours, this ensures that you don't snag your leg on the loop below. Also, make sure you don't get rope burn from the other strand going up while you come down!

Most likely your girlfriend doesn't want to drop you and will be holding strong. That being said, the first time a belayer sees someone falling towards them is the real make or break moment. Everyone reacts differently.

I have been belayed by the tiniest of girls who gripped that rope like nobodies business. The worst however was a friend who was outdoorsy and a climber. Here's how it played out... She had never caught a lead fall before and I was on a route that was too much for me. Back in my noob days :)

Me: I'm going to fall, you ready?
Her: Yeah I got you.
Me: You're holding the break down?
Her: Yep, solid, go for it!
Me: Okay on three... 3, 2, 1
My Body: This is weird I just bounced my skull off the ground... glad I had my helmet on!
Me: You owe me dinner.
Her: OMG I'M SO SORRY ARE YOU OKAY!?!?

What happened? Well a falling object is scary. Psychologically we are programmed to dive out of the way, so she did just that, dropped the rope and dove!

So yeah, practice toprope falls on an ATC. Then practice fake toprope/lead falls on an ATC. Then when you go for the real thing, make sure she is backed up by a friend for the big final test!

Also.... I would recommend trying this out:
Set up a toprope with you climbing and a friend belaying. Clip in to a second rope that you will "mock" lead on. Have her belay with the grigri2 while you mock lead on toprope. This gives her a chance to get dialed with how to use the device on lead. Make sure she's doing it correct! A bad/incorrect lead belay on a grigri (where she is consistently holding it in break position to feed rope) is dangerous and needs to be addressed right away to prevent bad habits!

So there ya go, two ways to break into the lead belay with an ATC or grigri2. Have fun!

Just keep it simple, I've always found that keeping things simple and performing them flawlessly are the best way to do things when climbing, complicating things that should be simple often times leads to failures, rather than making things simpler.

I'm double the weight of my wife, we've been climbing together for 18 years. The only device she's used to belay me as been an atc. We've top roped, and done multi pitch trad routes.

Teach her how to belay properly, and stay on easier routes until you are comfortable that she has belaying down pat (that goes for anyone that is new to belaying). Definately anchor her in!

Now if the real issue is that she says she's not comfortable belaying you, then give serious consideration to bringing an experienced climber to belay you.

Judging from your questions, I wouldn't advise that you teach anyone anything. You are too new to this to be an effective teache . . .

And I've been climbing for 25 years. I can only imagine what you might think about the OP.

Jay

...we've heard of people dropped by experienced people with an ATC on RC ...

Listen to this guy ^^^

GO

Hmmm. 'Experienced' isn't just a measure of time on rock or yardage, but rather of a positive progression of time, yardage, skills, and judgment. Experienced belayers don't drop people with any belay device - incompetent belayers do.

And I separate out 'belayers' from 'climbers' because I've run into some well-known climbers who sucked at belaying. Generally when I see that it's usually because they're only 'on' when they are climbing - when someone else is climbing and they aren't the focus, well, then they'd be less interested in the proceedings. The prima donna thing really isn't what you want in a belayer.

Hmmm. 'Experienced' anyone who believes that it can never happen to them because they have the "right" belayers IMO is kidding themselves ... anyone can have a lapse in attention, and it only needs to happen once

you cant guarantee that the other person will be on their game every moment, you can stack the odds in yr favor by choosing the right person ... but at the end of the day thats what it is ... odds

all it takes is one slip up

This makes no sense from beginning to end. I'm really hoping that English isn't your first language, and you've just completely failed to get your ideas across. Because otherwise you seem to misunderstand nearly everything in the belay process.


1 - If you wish to back up a belayer, the above would be a horrible way to do it.

2 - After a belayer has properly learned and demonstrated the ability to belay, no backup belayer should be involved.

3 - An incompetent belayer may drop you with any device, whether it is auto-locking or not.


1 - The belayer should always be aware of the potential danger of rockfall. Some areas have a very low likelihood of rockfall, others a very high likelihood. The belayer should stand out of the way, and should wear a helmet if necessary. Mitigation is 99.9% of the solution, autolocking belay devices are a 0.1% solution to rockfall, at best.

2 - Why the concern about the belayer's hand getting burned? I've seen this happen only twice, and in both cases the rope burn was caused by the belayer dropping the climber, not the other way around. In each case, the belayer was using a poor technique, and the climber fell just at the weak point of the belayer's technique.


Yes, but if you ever have a reason to do so, you've already screwed something else up.


If you weigh twice what your belayer does, anchoring her with a long tether might work well. A grigri might also work well. I don't understand the bit about the grigri being inefficient at all.

GO

there are also a lot more climbers out there today than before ... many more

and i suspect all these climber take many more falls than the climbers of before ...

either way ... you are climbing in todays world ... and unless your partners are all 70 year old geezers who will "never" drop anyone, you are being belayed by todays climbers ...

...as evidenced by one of our sadly dropped members, "experienced" climbers in todays world can drop people ...

No one I climb with would ever drop anyone. Guaranteed.

Widespread belay fuckups are a relatively recent phenom and largely unheard of BITD. An 'experienced' belayer should be able to go through a career spanning four or five decades and NEVER fuckup a belay, ever. An 'experienced' belayer can guarantee they will be on their game every moment - and anytime they can't, then they shouldn't be belaying at that time.

So, yeah, all it takes is one slip up, but a slip up belaying should NEVER happen. That it does routinely today is a reflection of today's overall demographic, how that demographic learns to climb, and the development of a broad attitude of tolerance for the intolerable.

sorry .... but i call bull

theres no way you can "guarantee" that absolutely ... you may THINK they wont ... but theres utterly no way you can guarantee it ... shiet can happen to anyone.

Man, if I believed a single word of that I'd quit climbing tomorrow. Really. When I say "absolutely", I mean absolutely guarantee a good belay.

Shite does not just "happen", incompetent people make shite happen. Incompetency isn't in the air, doesn't fall out of the sky to land on random people, and isn't visited upon us by chance in any other way. You are either competent to the task of belaying or you aren't. There is no gray in the matter.

That people like you would accept this as some sort of new 'reality' means climbing is way of the rails in general these days and expanding the demographic so rapidly over the past two decades was, in hindsight, quite unfortunate. That's because it means there are now a bunch of people climbing who shouldn't and never should have.

oh bull again ... ive stated many times that there are bad belayers and they should not be belaying .. and that anyone who belays should be able to do it with an ATC ...

what i can and do accept is the fact that people are fallible ... and yes even the best people ...everyone makes a mistake sooner or later..

to blindly "guarantee" that no one you ever climb with will never drop anyone for the rest of their climbing careers is just being delusional IMO

guess you dont climb with new partners ... same old group of same old "guaranteed" people ...

many people are competent ... till they screw up.

No one I climb with would ever drop anyone. Guaranteed.... When I say "absolutely", I mean absolutely guarantee a good belay....

...You are either competent to the task of belaying or you aren't. There is no gray in the matter....

1. you absolutely guarantee that everyone you climb with will never drop anyone for the rest of their climbing lives.

2. you climb with new people ... yet still guarantee the above ... how in the world can you "guarantee" it the first few times you climb with them and before they actually catch you on a fall ... sure you can take a test fall or two, and "train" em ... but guarantee that every single moment that there will never be a mess up is plain silly

if we could really guarantee that everyone else we have "faith" in can never fcuk up ... well the world would be a different place

heres something i find particularly relevant ... best wishes to mister powers...

...They were climbing a 5.10 route called Bypass on a crag called Highwire. They had reached the top, and Powers decided he wanted to rearrange an anchor. Then he downclimbed 15-20 feet to put in a directional anchor. When the rope slackened as he downclimbed, his belayer thought he was pulling up rope to rappel. She also thought she heard "Belay off." But he wasn't.
"It was just a bad position with regard to our ability to communicate," Powers said. "There's the river, there's the road (noise), and because of the overhang I'd just climbed over, we were not in visual contact, either. So by the time I asked for tension and leaned back on the rope, I had been taken off belay. I just leaned back and fell."...

..."It takes two people to make a mistake in climbing," Powers said.

..."It takes two people to make a mistake in climbing," Powers said.

Is this a troll, or some sort of Halloween prank? You don't seriously believe that do you?

The most competent belayers on the planet are still human, and none of them are exempt from our fallible human nature. None.

Yep.


Judgment. I only climb mulitpitch trad, usually 3-5 pitches at our local crag. A couple of time a year I'll take someone out and do a 5.7-.9 route and lead all the pitches with someone who has never climbed or belayed. I give them about ten minutes of practice hip belaying with a single, non-locking biner on the belay loop for the side of the rope going to the leader. In that time they learn how to brake, then hold me below a piece and lower, then hold a couple of lead falls and lower. I can usually tell in under two minutes if they are going to work out or not - if they don't, or I get the sense anywhere along the way in those ten minutes they aren't getting it - then we don't continue or climb. After that I have no hesitation leading the route with them if they did 'get it' to my satisfaction.


Again, I wouldn't climb if I couldn't make that judgment call and I've been making it successfully for close to four decades.


Well, some observations...

a) Power's partner wasn't belaying him at the time, she had taken him off belay - it was a communications failure, not a belaying failure, i.e. he wasn't dropped.

b) An unfamiliar partner (I believe that's what I read somewhere)

c) Lack of agreed protocol before leaving the ground

d) "Rearranging an anchor" without discussing it or communicating that the belayer

e) Failure to anchor while confirming with belayer prior to 'taking' to lower


Here I fundamentally disagree with Phil. Is that the case a lot of the time? Sure. Was that the case this time? Arguable. I'm old school and rope solo for at least half of all my climbing so my emphasis in climbing is personal responsibility - you leave the ground on the sharp end of the rope and you are wholly responsible for your safety. You pick the wrong partner, you fail to agree on protocols, you decide to do something unexpected when out of communication, and / or you fail to secure yourself in order to re-establish communication - then you have no one but yourself to blame. Should Phil's belayer have erred on the side of caution in the face of an uncertainty in communciation, sure, but it was Phil's responsibility to insure the communication, to have established the protocol upfront, or to secure himself having done that.

I'm also guessing Phil didn't become Exec-Dir of the AAC, President of the AMGA, or take up guiding as a career without being a highly social individual; if it was a stranger he had belay him then it would be interesting to know just what mental audit, if any, he went through to qualify the person as competent to belay him. But again, it wasn't a belaying accident per se, but rather a gross failure of communication and protocol.

================================


As I said, absolutely...


Fallibility is not an option when belaying competently. Period. Don't accept that it is. Case in point, a couple of years ago I passed out once while belaying a guy due to what turned out to be a transient health event, but in the course of about a minute that took, I still managed to tell my partner to get clipped into something, locked off the ATC solid, gripped the rope hard, and made a point of falling on the ATC and my hand as I faded out. Despite being passed out with an ATC, my partner still had to wait for some other guys to finish rapping, come over to me, roll me over, and pry the rope out of my hand in order to free the rope to come down. Bottom line is you have to be prepared to compensate when you have to, whenever and however you have to.

udgment. I only climb mulitpitch trad, usually 3-5 pitches at our local crag. A couple of time a year I'll take someone out and do a 5.7-.9 route and lead all the pitches with someone who has never climbed or belayed. I give them about ten minutes of practice hip belaying with a single, non-locking biner on the belay loop for the side of the rope going to the leader. In that time they learn how to brake, then hold me below a piece and lower, then hold a couple of lead falls and lower. I can usually tell in under two minutes if they are going to work out or not - if they don't, or I get the sense anywhere along the way in those ten minutes they aren't getting it - then we don't continue or climb. After that I have no hesitation leading the route with them if they did 'get it' to my satisfaction.

...Fallibility is not an option when belaying competently. Period. Don't accept that it is...

one can argue whether the above failure is really communication, "belaying", or something else ... mr powers seems to think it is belaying or part of it ... and i believe he [Powers] is in the best position to have known and judge

Healyj is 100% spot on here.

There are many skills to be a great belayer, but the only one that needs to be guaranteed is to hold the bloody rope.

If you cannot manage that 100% of the time, you are incompetent.

I climb with a lot of folks, young and old - all competent belayers or I wouldn't climb with them. Age and chance have nothing to do with it, only competence does.

I see so many crappy belayers, many of whom I know, and they climb with some of my climbing partners. But I will not climb with them. Nevertheless, none of them seem to find any difficulty getting partners. I suspect that folks like Bearbreeder, who think it's all a matter of chance, have no such qualms, or perhaps don't even notice some of the things I notice in a belay. I've seen several people get dropped, and I know lots of warning signs.

The only risk I see in my getting dropped is my *own* fallibility in judging new partners.

GO

Just keep it simple, I've always found that keeping things simple and performing them flawlessly are the best way to do things when climbing, complicating things that should be simple often times leads to failures, rather than making things simpler.

I'm double the weight of my wife, we've been climbing together for 18 years. The only device she's used to belay me as been an atc. We've top roped, and done multi pitch trad routes.

Teach her how to belay properly, and stay on easier routes until you are comfortable that she has belaying down pat (that goes for anyone that is new to belaying). Definately anchor her in!

Now if the real issue is that she says she's not comfortable belaying you, then give serious consideration to bringing an experienced climber to belay you.

... but to DENY it can ever happen to you ... thats bull

have to agree with bearbreeder. most belay practices are held with the rope from the belayer to the leader going through at least one anchored biner before the leader takes his/her test fall. how many times do belayers practice while sitting on a ledge up on a cliff with the leader falling before placing or clipping their first piece, i.e. falling directly against the belayer? the force generated in this scenario is not only in a direction which they have never practiced for (downwards), it also can be more than they've experienced before because there is no rope drag through that first biner. plus, in this direction, they don't have the advantage of any body weight to help hold the fall. even experienced "competent" belayers may be hard pressed to hold such a fall, especially if there is any slack whatsoever in the system. I was dropped by my experienced and competent belayer in such a situation. there is no such thing as 100% infallibility. another example is if you're climbing outside with double ropes and your belayer has only practiced belaying with single ropes. The required additional rope management can lead to a leader fall catching the belayer at a bad moment, while they're adjusting the slack in one rope or the other, tending to tangles etc. I was dropped once in a such a situation by an otherwise experienced and competent belayer.

to the original OP, if you are really concerned, another option is to use a petzl shunt as a belay backup. this can be very cumbersome to do (and I don't do this), but at least it will prevent the worst case scenario (belayer losing the rope completely, allowing the leader to ground out) and the shunt is also very useful when rapping multipitch and can be used as an ascender in a pinch etc. also the shunt can be used with double ropes, unlike the grigri. but as others have said, a belay backup is no substitute for good belay technique and practice catching falls.

... I was dropped by my experienced and competent belayer in such a situation. ... I was dropped once in a such a situation by an otherwise experienced and competent belayer.....

Two different belayers. Both women though-- coincidence of course.