It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time.

Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state:
- I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years.
- I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors
- I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9
- I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff
- I'm young, only 16 years old.

SO I'm not completely clueless.

I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say:
Pre-Climb:
On belay? :: Belay is on
Permission to climb :: Climb away
Climbing ::
For Decent:
"I use:"
Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down
Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down

I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you."

So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average?

Suck it up and deal with the rules. They are established by a conversation between the owner(s) and their insurance company.

Valid point. I know to suck it up. In fact, the rest of the day went rather well, the purpose of this was to try and see if people think this is strict in comparison to what they have experienced.

Edit: I'm 16, yes. However, I ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt in that I'm a little bit smarter than the average teen. I'm currently on the track to receiving an associates degree one semester after graduating from high school.

The most dangerous element in the gyms is overconfident folk who think they know what they are doing, and this is basically their best chance to catch those folks and course-correct before anyone gets hurt.

HTH

All gyms are different.

...There are a lot of people working at climbing gyms that don't know much about climbing.

... That, and he probably doesn't know much about climbing so he is making sure to do everything EXACTLY as he was taught - can't fault him for that.

Just follow the rules and try not to be rude.

Valid point. I know to suck it up. In fact, the rest of the day went rather well, the purpose of this was to try and see if people think this is strict in comparison to what they have experienced.

Edit: I'm 16, yes. However, I ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt in that I'm a little bit smarter than the average teen. I'm currently on the track to receiving an associates degree one semester after graduating from high school.

- I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff
- I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc.

It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time.

Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state:
- I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years.
- I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors
- I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9
- I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff
- I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc.

SO I'm not completely clueless.

I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say:
Pre-Climb:
On belay? :: Belay is on
Permission to climb :: Climb away
Climbing ::
For Decent:
"I use:"
Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down
Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down

I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you."

So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average?

-MM

We arrived with our forms all filled out, ready to take our belay tests and go. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite like that. Despite the fact that the place was almost entirely empty, it was fully an hour and a half before they were able to give us our lead belay tests and get us on the wall.

<snip>

Here are just a few of the rules:

You must belay with a gri-gri (TR or lead).
The belayer must anchor in (TR or lead).
The belayer's anchor point must not be taut to the floor at any time.
The belay biner must be oriented so the locking sleeve screws *down* rather than *up*.

My partner got two permanent demerits on his membership entered into the computer (I'm not kidding!) for 1 - having his belay biner oriented incorrectly, and 2 - not having enough slack in his anchor line (because he stepped back two feet to get the rope out of my way as I was climbing).

We were not horsing around, or in any other way calling negative attention to ourselves. We just went there to climb. If you have a short fuse, don't even step in the door, it'll be ugly! We just let it roll off us; we were amused.

It's particularly irksome because the worst of the safety police on staff didn't seem to know anything about climbing. For example, I was reprimanded for Z-clipping, when I was doing no such thing - the girl simply had learned the wrong definition of the word.

We did also have a very positive interaction with one of the staff members. The guy who gave us our belay test was knowledgable, friendly, and reasonable. He was also clearly a climber. He even shared an interesting technical tip he'd read about recently for lead belaying with a gri-gri. He was also kind of apologetic about the gym's "issues".

<snipped the rest of review>

Just roll with it man.

Also you weren't climbing staff, you were climbing staff in training since you have to be 18 to be full climbing staff (Source: me being a National Camp School instructor for climbing)

I do not know about the gym rules but your resume is outstanding

now put your helmet on

Not sure how to take this. Is this supposed to be sarcastic, therefore insulting me? Or am I supposed to interpret it as I am doing fairly well given my age?

My experience from climbing gyms: every 16 year old, without fail, is an arrogant little prick. The odds of a 16 year old being wrong about anything is pretty much proportional to the amount of experience they claim on the subject. When you work day-in and day-out dealing with that, you learn to just assume the worst, as that way you don't have to watch a bad accident unfold in front of you.

Does that mean I have a bad attitude? Maybe. But I guarantee I'm a hell of a lot more sympathetic to the victims of idiots than to the idiots themselves.

Also you weren't climbing staff, you were climbing staff in training since you have to be 18 to be full climbing staff (Source: me being a National Camp School instructor for climbing)

EDIT: What year(s) were you the camp school instructor?

I appreciate your input, however, your response was a little off topic, as the question is do you think the gym rules were strict in comparison to gyms readers have had experiences at.

At the risk of further derailing the topic: Am I 16? Yes. Am I a prick? Maybe. Am I arrogant? Maybe. Your post was about your experience with 16 year old gym climbers. Implying the same would apply to me (if not, then you were posting a random rant). Therefore, I would say that statement would imply an equally haughty essence as you believe 16 year old individuals have.

Arrogant, from this post, I believe you are.

I appreciate your input, however, your response was a little off topic, as the question is do you think the gym rules were strict in comparison to gyms readers have had experiences at.

I think his answer was spot on and on topic. I also think the belay test should be strict.It's easy to claim experience, but the staff doesn't know you from Adam.

You didn't fail this test, you were critic and told what the gym expectations were several times. You went in thinking your knew something, you never asked the gym what their criteria are.

Arrogant, from this post, I believe you are.
Experienced in climbing, why, because you were a 16 year old on climbing staff at a BSA camp, please. Get over yourself.

As a gym owner, I agree, 16 year old who walk in my facilities talking about all their knowledge are a bigger hazard than the 16 year old who have never touched a climbing rope.

You passed the test, you're upset because you didn't 100% based on the staff critic. Guess what, regardless of finishing you associated degree at 16, you're not perfect.

Sorry, I dropped an important phrase from my qualifier. "My experience from climbing gyms I've worked at:..."

I am the sort of safety nazi who would tell you that you didn't dress your knot perfectly (which you didn't if the gym guy had to correct it, and if you don't know why knot dressing can be important, then you really aren't in a position to criticize the rules that require it), although I make a point of explaining, when I teach these things, that it doesn't matter half as much as other parts of the knot. All of that said, if I signed off on a person who could not do things according to what our insurance policies demand of us, I would've made the gym, and by extension ME, liable for injuries incurred. You should check out BSA's old climbing policy (provided they've changed it since I cycled through that crap) and compare it to accepted practices today. The Boy Scouts were pretty bad about pulling "safety" rules more or less out of thin air, and I'm pretty glad that I never climbed with the Scouts outside of climbing gyms because of that.

I used to make it pretty clear that I needed to know that the climber understood what their commands meant, even if they weren't our standard, so the dude barking at you for using Spanish may have served to ensure that you weren't expressing "I'm thirsty" and "but I just went". I've climbed next to people who used "OK" for every single one of their commands, and it was a mess.

From my experience, a gym that isn't strict about their rules invites the sorts of accidents that strict rules are meant to prevent. To say nothing about liability and insurance requirements, being present for a bad accident can really mess a person up, doubly so if they are tasked with enforcing the rules.

Unfortunately, the qualifier doesn't change your ability to make judgments on 16 year old climbers.

I don't recall bringing the BSA up as my principal climbing experience. If I made it sound that way I apologize, I figured I would throw that on there cause it was climbing related.

It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time.

Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state:
- I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years.
- I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors
- I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9
- I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff
- I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc.

SO I'm not completely clueless.

I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say:
Pre-Climb:
On belay? :: Belay is on
Permission to climb :: Climb away
Climbing ::
For Decent:
"I use:"
Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down
Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down

I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you."

So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average?

-MM

I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules.

My solution is to only boulder when climbing inside.

My best guess is that the "odd" rules exist for one of two reasons. One, insurance requires it. I've heard this reason from gyms whose insurance mandates the use of grigris.

Second, the owners may be wanting to create a higher barrier to entry. They might figure that knowing how to tie a double fishenan's backup is one more step advanced than a figure 8 follow-through in terms of climbing knowledge.

I would just deal with it. And get climbing outdoors safely.

I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules.

That's not contrived. With the original grigri you should always be holding the brake side of the rope firmly. That means to slide your brake hand up the rope you need to grasp the brake side of the rope with your other hand or use pinch-and-slide method. With the Grigri 2 there is probably less need to constantly maintain such a firm grip on the brake side of the rope.

Jay

Here are the details: the official gym method for toprope gri gri belaying was to *lock off* your brake (my right) hand down behind your hip ATC style, then bring your other (left)hand over to grasp the rope, pull in the slack, lock off with your left hand down around your right hip, and then walk the right hand up.

Pinch and slide was irrelevant here, because it was a toprope belay test.

Here are the details: the official gym method for toprope gri gri belaying was to *lock off* your brake (my right) hand down behind your hip ATC style, then bring your other (left)hand over to grasp the rope, pull in the slack, lock off with your left hand down around your right hip, and then walk the right hand up.

It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time.

Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state:
- I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years.
- I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors
- I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9
- I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff
- I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc.

SO I'm not completely clueless.

I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say:
Pre-Climb:
On belay? :: Belay is on
Permission to climb :: Climb away
Climbing ::
For Decent:
"I use:"
Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down
Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down

I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you."

So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average?

-MM

Irrelevant for toprope? When my partner is moving quickly on TR, I just about always use the pinch-and-slide belay method with any belay device.

It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time.

Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state:
- I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years.
- I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors
- I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9
- I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff
- I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc.

SO I'm not completely clueless.

I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up.

He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say:
Pre-Climb:
On belay? :: Belay is on
Permission to climb :: Climb away
Climbing ::
For Decent:
"I use:"
Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down
Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down

I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you."

So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average?

-MM

When you say "pinch" you mean "pinch the brake," no? Why on earth would you ever have to do that while TR belaying?

When you say "pinch" you mean "pinch the brake," no? Why on earth would you ever have to do that while TR belaying?

Regarding gym rules being dictated by insurance companies... In my gym experience, which is extensive but admittedly potentially out of date, insurance companies that dictate specific gym rules are a myth.

What I have seen are insurance companies that require gyms to have risk-management plans (including rules) and that they follow them. But those plans are typically written by the gym itself, not the insurance company.

Sounds like you got your answer, already, but I'll add my own 'gyms can require things to be done THEIR way' stories.

1. A guy comes to visit from out of town. He says hello to the employee at the counter. It so happens that the two guys know each other, have run into each other while climbing outside many times, and the employee happens to know that the visitor has 10+ years of climbing experience.

Nevertheless, the employee proceeds to belay test the visitor, requires him to use an ATC, and insists on the visitor tying in with a figure 8+double fisherman, even though the visitor always uses double bowline with a re-thread, and the employee knows how to tie double-fisherman and never objects to anyone tying in that way when climbing outside.

Sounds silly-- but this is a case of employee going by the book. And you can't really fault him for it, even though it is silly.

2. I am setting a TR route at the gym, using a gri-gri for self-belay (which is the standard gym-approved method). When I am done, a friend comes along, and I ask him to quickly run up the new route and give me feedback. He agrees, and I put him on belay with the gri-gri, because, well, I have it handy, while the ATC is in my bag. I get reprimanded for using a gri-gri to TR belay, because the gym requires everyone to belay with an ATC. The justification is that, while they know I can use a gri-gri, someone else might see me belaying with a gri-gri, and that would create a precedent and then maybe someone else would want to do the same, and gym rules say ATC only.

Silly, for sure. But... gym has rules. Got to stick with them if you want to climb there.

I have to agree on setting precedence to be honest.

Sure, if it's for something that makes sense.

Suck it up, you got to go climbing in the end.

And that's what counts!

End of story.

Setting precedence makes sense to me. I can only guess, but the gym most likely wants to avoid the gri gri as much as possible because it flattens their ropes.

As someone who owns a gym, I can honestly say, "why can he do it and not me" is a very common phrase. It's easier to enforce the rules with everyone versus selectively.

Perhaps the root of the problem is the rule structure itself. I have 10 years of experience managing gyms in which customers could use whatever device they like, as long as they did so correctly. No offense, but apparently our approach was more effective at reducing such questions than yours. I rarely had to field them. And when I did, since our rules were well thought out, they were easy to justify.

As for flat ropes from Gri-gri usage, I found that the natural variety of belay devices people employed solved the problem for us. Now requiring only Gri-gris... I could see flat ropes becoming an issue. But that's an example of another rule with which I disagree.

Flat ropes are part of life in gyms. We d what we can, but any gym in business should know that ropes don't last for ever and budget accordingly.

Now that I agree with.

hard not to agree with it.

Flat ropes are part of life in gyms. We d what we can, but any gym in business should know that ropes don't last for ever and budget accordingly.

I disagree

With which part?

I read somewhere on here about ropes and like the maximum number of falls they can take. And someone mentioned that like if you like rest a rope after a fall for a while it will stay stronger in the long run. If this indeed works I fail to see how it would happen. Because the stressed fibers wouldn't bend themselves? I'd its a bit late, not sure if that question made sense..

I'min the UK, but I was prompted to look on here following a discussion on UK Climbing. In the UK most indoor walls (we don't call them gyms) allow climbers to self-certify - you just sign a form to say you can put on a harness and can belay. Some only allow you tie in with a fig-8, but I've never heard of one restricting which belay device you use (although Munter hitches and body belays aren't permitted).

What surprised me was that some US gyms seem to set a fairly high entry standard for learning to lead. I found one website which demanded that in order to take their leading course you should be able to climb 5.9. Now I've been climbing for 40 years and I've safely led hundreds of climbs, but my best grade is equivalent to about 5.7. I might just manage 5.9 on a tight rope but its not pretty. According to this gym I wouldn't be competent even to take their course, let alone lead.

Is this common in US gyms? Just curious. It seems to run contrary to the idea of a gym as a training and learning facility.

Yes, its extremely common.

yeah common - but take it with a grain of salt. talking about gym grades which equal the epitome of grade inflation where 5.10 = grit VS (5.6/5.7). Also know that "leading" in a US gym is usually a very tightly controlled sanitized experience - bolts closely spaced, perms-draws and over-hanging terrain so you won't hit anything.

I think if you could eliminate the big things that make gym climbing easier (day glow plastic holds that you can learn over time), a lot of gym routes would turn out to be a lot harder than equivalently grades routes at various crags around the world.

That said, a gym that sets a lot of slabby lead terrain is begging for a lot of injured customers. Its just very hard to set a 5.7 on a continuously overhanging wall.

They were 25 feet tall and just past vertical the whole way. In the 7 years I worked there, I can't think of a single injury that I could attribute solely to the angle of the wall.

(Oddly enough, our single biggest cause of injuries was crash pads.)

I have never been to a gym that does not require you to onsight at least 5.8 to lead there. Most of the routes on a lead wall are generally 5.8 or harder, with the majority being 5.10 or above in most gyms. The idea behind the rule is that if you are a 5.7 climber that just learned how to lead, and all the routes on the lead wall are above your limit, you are liable to fall while clipping or something similar and get hurt.

However if the stories are to be believed the US is a much more litigious culture with much greater liability placed on the gym owner so I suppose they have to be cautious.

After the class, they have to lead at least 25 routes supervised, belay the same before they get their lead card.
.

That's a nice idea but I imagine fairly expensive staff wise.

.

Our gym has a minimum of three staff members working at all times. Because of that, we can offer basic safety classes to first time climbers with no appointment or reservations.

Our members have various schedules, so we have morning set of regulars, afternoon regular (usually kids/teen) and evening regulars. We do have slow time, but a climber who shows up can is guaranteed to get a belay even if no other members are around.

Staff belays free when no other qualified belayers are around. I always hated gyms that had staff working and wouldn't belay because they were to busy cruising the net, updating facebook, or reading instead of working.

Cheers
Eman
We'll be looking for a couple of foreign hire location managers soon.