Just curious. How was the belay device attached, e.g., clipped into the belay loop, extended by a sling, or in a different way?

Congratulations to your wife for courage and competence in escaping. I'll bet this won't happen again to her and hopefully not to anybody reading your post. Thanks for writing this up.

Rob.calm

Your wife is tough and resourceful and didn't panic under stress---good for her. But I'm not sure the lesson learned is to have a knife, because years ago someone in exactly the same position sliced through their harness and fell to their death.

I think the lesson is to know how, under stress, to get your weight completely off the belay device so that hair or clothing can be extracted without having to cut anything.

I forgot to mention that the other lesson learned was to always wear her hair in a bun of some sort.

And really, someone sliced through their harness? I would think that you would have to saw at it quite a bit to make that happen. What's your source for this story?

As for taking the weight off the belay device, what would you recommend? Tie a prussik above the belay device with a long sling to step on? Even if she did that, I would think that it would be a very balancy move - especially when trying to get the hair out. If her foot would slip out of the sling, she would likely tear out a large chunk of her scalp. How would you do it?

And really, someone sliced through their harness? I would think that you would have to saw at it quite a bit to make that happen. What's your source for this story?

As for taking the weight off the belay device, what would you recommend? Tie a prussik above the belay device with a long sling to step on? Even if she did that, I would think that it would be a very balancy move - especially when trying to get the hair out. If her foot would slip out of the sling, she would likely tear out a large chunk of her scalp. How would you do it?

About 10 years I was climbing with my son and he was rapping off a sport climb and got his long hair caught in the belay device when bending over looking down for a moment during the rap. He didn't have a knife and was in so much pain and agony that he gradually pulled out his hair by the roots. Ended up with a small bald patch. Painful way to learn a lesson.

Lessons learned: carry a knife, carry a prussic, and extend the belay/rap device. ...and to get a haircut or keep the hair out of the way.

Except for the fact that the last person has to clean and rap. Where we climb we don't lower through the anchors...

Today my wife got her hair caught in her belay device on a free rappel.

We were rapping off Moosedog Tower in J-Tree today, and the wind was a steady 30mph with gusts to about 70 mph. The wind blew her ponytail around and it got sucked into the belay device as she was coming down. Like a champ, dangling by her hair with no knife, she tore her hair chunk-by-chunk and managed to get it free.

Definitely the craziest wind that I've ever climbed in (I'm from southern California).

A pic for your viewing pleasure:

[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=6133;[/image]

Incredibly uncommon for sport climbing. I personally assume that any sport pitch is bolted with the expectation that the last climber will lower. I also contribute sacrificial gear to anchors for this reason. If you don't mind me asking, where do you climb?

And what exactly do you think shuts are for? Closed shuts are the worst hardware that could possibly be used for an anchor. Open shuts only have the benefit of convenience. Using the wrong hardware is no reason to encourage a rap first ethic in sport climbing.

Franklin WV. At lot of the climb have shuts that are wearing from that very reason.

Having done that myself, I would just like to say...HAHA!!

A pic for your viewing pleasure:

Incredibly uncommon for sport climbing. I personally assume that any sport pitch is bolted with the expectation that the. last climber will lower. I also contribute sacrificial gear to anchors for this reason. If you don't mind me asking, where do you climb?

While there isn't much black and white in climbing, I must say that when looking at United States climbing as a whole that you are categorically incorrect.

Chains are for rapping, not lowering (and also not for building your anchor). Lowering off of chains not only causes premature wear but also creates the incentive for others to do the same. While it might be tempting to lower because you don't have to thread half the rope as you do when rapping, show some respect to the route.

Closed shuts are found throughout the area. People have different opinions about rethreading and being lowered vs. rethreading and rapping. Both to preserve what's there and because of having a trad background, we chose/choose to rap instead.

Choosing to rap versus saying closed shuts were installed with the intent to rap are two really different statements. If the anchors are worn, they should be fixed. With all due respect to your background, that is sport climbing's view on fixed gear.

No, you're wrong. At almost any sport area, you can lower off whatever anchors there are, including chains. Chains are pretty common sport anchors in the US. You can lower through them.

Jay

While there isn't much black and white in climbing, I must say that when looking at United States climbing as a whole that you are categorically incorrect.

Chains are for rapping, not lowering (and also not for building your anchor). Lowering off of chains not only causes premature wear but also creates the incentive for others to do the same. While it might be tempting to lower because you don't have to thread half the rope as you do when rapping, show some respect to the route.

Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness?

Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness?

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...pe=route&id=1114

Rappell that?

Lowering is for safety, not convenience.

Why wouldn't you rap that? Maybe it isn't obvious from the picture, but it looks fine..

The reason is that the route is 80 feet long and so overhung you turn around and look straight out to belay. You will not clean it on rappell.

Why don't you go try it and report back?

The reason is that the route is 80 feet long and so overhung you turn around and look straight out to belay. You will not clean it on rappell.

Where has cleaning been mentioned prior to this in this thread?

This argument has been going on for at least 20 years. Same predictable back and forth every time. Lowering is statistically safer - even though it gets screwed up in a regular basis. Lowering will wear out the gear (including YOUR rope - but not to any significant degree) faster. It may also kink your rope. It will help a lot of you are trying to clean the route and its overhanging. Often times route are equipped with anchors that are easily replaceable when worn. But there is no doubt that recommending it is also contributing to the dumbing down of climbing which after all is what sport climbing (and to a great extent this site) is all about.

Now the expected responses should include the words "trad" "obsolete", "dinosaur" and the like, blah blah blah. Come up with something new - should the compressor have been chopped - wait - that one is 40 years old.

Then that's definitely the exception and not the rule.

Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness?

I think I've probably seen this trattitude on the internet at least 1000 times now.

It's a combination of traditude and gumbitude. At any of the SoCal areas that have become (eg, NJC), or have always been (eg, Holcomb Valley), dominated by gumbies, you see mostly save-the-anchor rappelling. At the crags where the pros climb, hardly anyone ever raps. Can you imagine rapping the harder routes at that place where you're rumored to have flashed the warm-up?

"Save the anchors" is the new gumby meme.

Jay

when i saw the title for this thread i thought they were only wearing their harness

Your wife is tough and resourceful and didn't panic under stress---good for her. But I'm not sure the lesson learned is to have a knife, because years ago someone in exactly the same position sliced through their harness and fell to their death.

I think the lesson is to know how, under stress, to get your weight completely off the belay device so that hair or clothing can be extracted without having to cut anything.

I've had this happen to me a couple of times now. I have long hair, even in a pony tail and if I want to wear a helmet there are very few options for how I can wear my hair: down or in a low pony tail. Both lend themselves to getting sucked into a grigri.

Once I was belaying and it got sucked into the climber end of a grigri and my climber just unweighted the rope and all was fine.

The other time I fell low down on a route and my belayer got pulled up and my hair got sucked into the BRAKE end of the grigri and my belayer wasn't on the ground and the climb was overhanging so I was no where near the rock. I had to climb on a friend of mine to lower my belayer to the ground without sending rope through the grigri. It huuuurrrrrttt.

Also, don't ask me how my hair went into the break end. I have no clue how that happened.

There are 2 really easy fixes for your problem:
1. Get one of those fancy helmets for a high ponytail.
Or
2. Braid your hair.

**holy shit! 2 constructive suggestions in 1 post!**
I promise it won't happen again. Sorry RC.com

There are 2 really easy fixes for your problem:
1. Get one of those fancy helmets for a high ponytail.
Or
2. Braid your hair.

**holy shit! 2 constructive suggestions in 1 post!**
I promise it won't happen again. Sorry RC.com

yeah, seriously. I don't even climb w/ people who bring knives on route. Scares the shit it of me. My wife (girl friend @ the time) had this happen on her first day out & first ever rap. I was right beside her for LEARNING purposes & freed her up with a prussik. Moral of the story, EDUCATION &PREPAREDNESS will save your life, but KNIVES WILL KILL YOU.

climbers with short hair are also not immune to this. years ago i was rappelling the New River Gorge bridge and wouldn't you know it, got my (short hair, under a helmet) caught in my rap device (a rappel rack). could happen also if you extend your ATC or other rap device.

Re knives, note that knives that do not lock shut are susceptible to opening on their own volition. the one time i carried a knife clipped to my harness gear loop, i looked down at one point and saw it partially open. would not have been fun to reach down for some gear and have the knife close on my fingers.

Truly short hair wouldn't be long enough to get caught even if you tried, so I have to question your use of the description.

It's a combination of traditude and gumbitude. At any of the SoCal areas that have become (eg, NJC), or have always been (eg, Holcomb Valley), dominated by gumbies, you see mostly save-the-anchor rappelling. At the crags where the pros climb, hardly anyone ever raps. Can you imagine rapping the harder routes at that place where you're rumored to have flashed the warm-up?

"Save the anchors" is the new gumby meme.

Jay

I don't disagree with your basic argument (that most routes at most modern sport crags routes are set up for the last person to lower) but your stance on it does make me chuckle. I wonder how many years until you're the "gumby", and your own line gets used about you? A time when all the new climbers are saying "But the anchors are there for toproping through. Why should we put our own gear on them? You don't like us TRing through the chains all day? Too bad old man!"

G

I don't disagree with your basic argument (that most routes at most modern sport crags routes are set up for the last person to lower) but your stance on it does make me chuckle. I wonder how many years until you're the "gumby", and your own line gets used about you? A time when all the new climbers are saying "But the anchors are there for toproping through. Why should we put our own gear on them? You don't like us TRing through the chains all day? Too bad old man!"

G

I don't get. Your post doesn't make sense to me for four reasons. First, the trend is in the opposite direction: n00bs are becoming more fixated on "saving the anchors"; not less. Second, the anchors are intended for lowering, and not, for the most part, for TRing. Third, if in the future some new generation of anchors is intended for toproping, I'll be one of the first to toprope through them. As it is, I occasionally take a TR burn through the anchors, anyway, and I don't think it's a crime. Fourth (or maybe first), what does TRing through the anchors have to do with the "controversy" I was addressing—rapping vs. lowering—anyway?

Jay

I was riffing about how the trend is more towards convenience and less towards saving the anchor hardware. So I simply took it the next logical step, and imagined the resulting controversy.

GO

if in the future some new generation of anchors is intended for toproping, I'll be one of the first to toprope through them. As it is, I occasionally take a TR burn through the anchors, anyway, and I don't think it's a crime. Fourth (or maybe first), what does TRing through the anchors have to do with the "controversy" I was addressing—rapping vs. lowering—anyway?

Jay