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avalon420
Jan 27, 2012, 3:35 AM
Post #51 of 66
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Also, hair thingys make decency keeper loops for stacked nuts , or mid rout makeshift ____ ring ;)
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guangzhou
Jan 27, 2012, 5:18 AM
Post #52 of 66
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Rap or lower, funny to see this is still an argument.
I've develop quite a lot of single pitch sport routes over the last decade. In the U.S., CHina, Japan, Europe, and Indonesia. When I use chain at the belay station, I know that future climbers will use those chains to lower off the route. I usually add three or four extra links so tht when the bottom link wears out, the lowest link can be cut and the next link up becomes the lower off link.
When I use various other smooth and round, like shuts, I expect and predict people will lower off.
If for some reason I don't want, or don't think people will lower off, like some of the multi-pitch or big wall routes I've out up that needed belay stations, I use something like the Metolius rap ring.
While I expect and think most people will lower when they climb sport routes I put up, I know some will rap it for some reason.
To me, on sport routes, lowering seems safer, faster, and more convenient, especially if I have to remove draws from leading the route on the way down.
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notapplicable
Jan 27, 2012, 4:46 PM
Post #53 of 66
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avalon420 wrote: rgold wrote: Your wife is tough and resourceful and didn't panic under stress---good for her. But I'm not sure the lesson learned is to have a knife, because years ago someone in exactly the same position sliced through their harness and fell to their death. I think the lesson is to know how, under stress, to get your weight completely off the belay device so that hair or clothing can be extracted without having to cut anything. yeah, seriously. I don't even climb w/ people who bring knives on route. Scares the shit it of me. My wife (girl friend @ the time) had this happen on her first day out & first ever rap. I was right beside her for LEARNING purposes & freed her up with a prussik. Moral of the story, EDUCATION &PREPAREDNESS will save your life, but KNIVES WILL KILL YOU.
Thats funny, I could probably count on one hand the number of routes I haven't carried a knife on and so far no one has been murdered. Unless you count orange peel, flappers and old tat...
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majid_sabet
Jan 27, 2012, 6:10 PM
Post #54 of 66
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she must be very hot looking now
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guangzhou
Jan 28, 2012, 1:43 PM
Post #55 of 66
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I often carry a knife in the pocket of my chalk bag on long mult-pitch routes or other routes that have sling tied off for the rappels. Just makes life easier of you have to change out the webbing.
On sport routes, my pocketknife tend to stay in my pack.
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rgold
Jan 28, 2012, 5:11 PM
Post #56 of 66
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My comment about knives was meant to suggest that slashing away at something, hair or clothing, caught in a rappel device carries with it the danger of accidentally cutting a critical connecting link.
I was not suggesting, and certainly do not believe, that knives themselves have to be avoided. Personally, I have a chalk bag with a zipper pocket and a small knife and two prussik loops liver there permanently. None of these items sees much action, although a few years ago I actually needed them all to rescue an inexperienced person who had gotten jammed on a rappel.
The knife comes out periodically, if not frequently, for cutting down tat.
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barleywino
Feb 14, 2012, 12:35 AM
Post #57 of 66
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climbers with short hair are also not immune to this. years ago i was rappelling the New River Gorge bridge and wouldn't you know it, got my (short hair, under a helmet) caught in my rap device (a rappel rack). could happen also if you extend your ATC or other rap device.
Re knives, note that knives that do not lock shut are susceptible to opening on their own volition. the one time i carried a knife clipped to my harness gear loop, i looked down at one point and saw it partially open. would not have been fun to reach down for some gear and have the knife close on my fingers.
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Traches
Feb 14, 2012, 1:43 AM
Post #58 of 66
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barleywino wrote: climbers with short hair are also not immune to this. years ago i was rappelling the New River Gorge bridge and wouldn't you know it, got my (short hair, under a helmet) caught in my rap device (a rappel rack). could happen also if you extend your ATC or other rap device. Re knives, note that knives that do not lock shut are susceptible to opening on their own volition. the one time i carried a knife clipped to my harness gear loop, i looked down at one point and saw it partially open. would not have been fun to reach down for some gear and have the knife close on my fingers.
Truly short hair wouldn't be long enough to get caught even if you tried, so I have to question your use of the description.
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barleywino
Feb 14, 2012, 1:50 AM
Post #59 of 66
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let me clarify: my hair came down to about an inch above my eyebrows. no ponytails. i didn't believe it could happen until it did. fortunately it pulled right out of my head before I could even react. a reminder to not be too complacent.
(This post was edited by barleywino on Feb 14, 2012, 1:51 AM)
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sherpa79
Feb 14, 2012, 1:21 PM
Post #60 of 66
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Traches wrote: Truly short hair wouldn't be long enough to get caught even if you tried, so I have to question your use of the description.
Beard hair dude. Beard hair.
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cracklover
Feb 14, 2012, 5:12 PM
Post #61 of 66
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jt512 wrote: caughtinside wrote: agdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: agdavis wrote: shotwell wrote: naitch wrote: Except for the fact that the last person has to clean and rap. Where we climb we don't lower through the anchors... Incredibly uncommon for sport climbing. I personally assume that any sport pitch is bolted with the expectation that the. last climber will lower. I also contribute sacrificial gear to anchors for this reason. If you don't mind me asking, where do you climb? While there isn't much black and white in climbing, I must say that when looking at United States climbing as a whole that you are categorically incorrect. Chains are for rapping, not lowering (and also not for building your anchor). Lowering off of chains not only causes premature wear but also creates the incentive for others to do the same. While it might be tempting to lower because you don't have to thread half the rope as you do when rapping, show some respect to the route. No, you're wrong. At almost any sport area, you can lower off whatever anchors there are, including chains. Chains are pretty common sport anchors in the US. You can lower through them. Jay Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness? I think I've probably seen this trattitude on the internet at least 1000 times now. It's a combination of traditude and gumbitude. At any of the SoCal areas that have become (eg, NJC), or have always been (eg, Holcomb Valley), dominated by gumbies, you see mostly save-the-anchor rappelling. At the crags where the pros climb, hardly anyone ever raps. Can you imagine rapping the harder routes at that place where you're rumored to have flashed the warm-up? "Save the anchors" is the new gumby meme. Jay
I don't disagree with your basic argument (that most routes at most modern sport crags routes are set up for the last person to lower) but your stance on it does make me chuckle. I wonder how many years until you're the "gumby", and your own line gets used about you? A time when all the new climbers are saying "But the anchors are there for toproping through. Why should we put our own gear on them? You don't like us TRing through the chains all day? Too bad old man!"
G
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shotwell
Feb 14, 2012, 5:37 PM
Post #62 of 66
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: caughtinside wrote: agdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: agdavis wrote: shotwell wrote: naitch wrote: Except for the fact that the last person has to clean and rap. Where we climb we don't lower through the anchors... Incredibly uncommon for sport climbing. I personally assume that any sport pitch is bolted with the expectation that the. last climber will lower. I also contribute sacrificial gear to anchors for this reason. If you don't mind me asking, where do you climb? While there isn't much black and white in climbing, I must say that when looking at United States climbing as a whole that you are categorically incorrect. Chains are for rapping, not lowering (and also not for building your anchor). Lowering off of chains not only causes premature wear but also creates the incentive for others to do the same. While it might be tempting to lower because you don't have to thread half the rope as you do when rapping, show some respect to the route. No, you're wrong. At almost any sport area, you can lower off whatever anchors there are, including chains. Chains are pretty common sport anchors in the US. You can lower through them. Jay Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness? I think I've probably seen this trattitude on the internet at least 1000 times now. It's a combination of traditude and gumbitude. At any of the SoCal areas that have become (eg, NJC), or have always been (eg, Holcomb Valley), dominated by gumbies, you see mostly save-the-anchor rappelling. At the crags where the pros climb, hardly anyone ever raps. Can you imagine rapping the harder routes at that place where you're rumored to have flashed the warm-up? "Save the anchors" is the new gumby meme. Jay I don't disagree with your basic argument (that most routes at most modern sport crags routes are set up for the last person to lower) but your stance on it does make me chuckle. I wonder how many years until you're the "gumby", and your own line gets used about you? A time when all the new climbers are saying "But the anchors are there for toproping through. Why should we put our own gear on them? You don't like us TRing through the chains all day? Too bad old man!" G
Presumably, that would be at a time when route developers install hardware with the expectation that people will toprope through the anchors. However, this isn't likely to affect Jay (or other experienced sport climbers) much. Toproping noobs aren't even climbing on the warm ups for most sport climbers. With the notable exceptions of Shelf Road, Smith Rock, and a few other old school areas, top roping sport climbs of even a moderate difficulty is not feasible.
Also, why would Jay care if the ethic shifted to letting gumbies toprope through the chains? I care, currently, because I help to maintain anchor hardware. If more people are willing to pony up for the sake of convenience, why not let them? The only reason that sport climbing anchors are considered disposable is because sport climbers are willing to maintain them at their current level of use.
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jt512
Feb 14, 2012, 9:24 PM
Post #63 of 66
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: caughtinside wrote: agdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: agdavis wrote: shotwell wrote: naitch wrote: Except for the fact that the last person has to clean and rap. Where we climb we don't lower through the anchors... Incredibly uncommon for sport climbing. I personally assume that any sport pitch is bolted with the expectation that the. last climber will lower. I also contribute sacrificial gear to anchors for this reason. If you don't mind me asking, where do you climb? While there isn't much black and white in climbing, I must say that when looking at United States climbing as a whole that you are categorically incorrect. Chains are for rapping, not lowering (and also not for building your anchor). Lowering off of chains not only causes premature wear but also creates the incentive for others to do the same. While it might be tempting to lower because you don't have to thread half the rope as you do when rapping, show some respect to the route. No, you're wrong. At almost any sport area, you can lower off whatever anchors there are, including chains. Chains are pretty common sport anchors in the US. You can lower through them. Jay Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness? I think I've probably seen this trattitude on the internet at least 1000 times now. It's a combination of traditude and gumbitude. At any of the SoCal areas that have become (eg, NJC), or have always been (eg, Holcomb Valley), dominated by gumbies, you see mostly save-the-anchor rappelling. At the crags where the pros climb, hardly anyone ever raps. Can you imagine rapping the harder routes at that place where you're rumored to have flashed the warm-up? "Save the anchors" is the new gumby meme. Jay I don't disagree with your basic argument (that most routes at most modern sport crags routes are set up for the last person to lower) but your stance on it does make me chuckle. I wonder how many years until you're the "gumby", and your own line gets used about you? A time when all the new climbers are saying "But the anchors are there for toproping through. Why should we put our own gear on them? You don't like us TRing through the chains all day? Too bad old man!" G
I don't get. Your post doesn't make sense to me for four reasons. First, the trend is in the opposite direction: n00bs are becoming more fixated on "saving the anchors"; not less. Second, the anchors are intended for lowering, and not, for the most part, for TRing. Third, if in the future some new generation of anchors is intended for toproping, I'll be one of the first to toprope through them. As it is, I occasionally take a TR burn through the anchors, anyway, and I don't think it's a crime. Fourth (or maybe first), what does TRing through the anchors have to do with the "controversy" I was addressing—rapping vs. lowering—anyway?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 14, 2012, 9:30 PM)
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cracklover
Feb 14, 2012, 9:44 PM
Post #64 of 66
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: caughtinside wrote: agdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: agdavis wrote: shotwell wrote: naitch wrote: Except for the fact that the last person has to clean and rap. Where we climb we don't lower through the anchors... Incredibly uncommon for sport climbing. I personally assume that any sport pitch is bolted with the expectation that the. last climber will lower. I also contribute sacrificial gear to anchors for this reason. If you don't mind me asking, where do you climb? While there isn't much black and white in climbing, I must say that when looking at United States climbing as a whole that you are categorically incorrect. Chains are for rapping, not lowering (and also not for building your anchor). Lowering off of chains not only causes premature wear but also creates the incentive for others to do the same. While it might be tempting to lower because you don't have to thread half the rope as you do when rapping, show some respect to the route. No, you're wrong. At almost any sport area, you can lower off whatever anchors there are, including chains. Chains are pretty common sport anchors in the US. You can lower through them. Jay Why would you ruin fixed gear out of sheer laziness? I think I've probably seen this trattitude on the internet at least 1000 times now. It's a combination of traditude and gumbitude. At any of the SoCal areas that have become (eg, NJC), or have always been (eg, Holcomb Valley), dominated by gumbies, you see mostly save-the-anchor rappelling. At the crags where the pros climb, hardly anyone ever raps. Can you imagine rapping the harder routes at that place where you're rumored to have flashed the warm-up? "Save the anchors" is the new gumby meme. Jay I don't disagree with your basic argument (that most routes at most modern sport crags routes are set up for the last person to lower) but your stance on it does make me chuckle. I wonder how many years until you're the "gumby", and your own line gets used about you? A time when all the new climbers are saying "But the anchors are there for toproping through. Why should we put our own gear on them? You don't like us TRing through the chains all day? Too bad old man!" G I don't get. Your post doesn't make sense to me for four reasons. First, the trend is in the opposite direction: n00bs are becoming more fixated on "saving the anchors"; not less. Second, the anchors are intended for lowering, and not, for the most part, for TRing. Third, if in the future some new generation of anchors is intended for toproping, I'll be one of the first to toprope through them. As it is, I occasionally take a TR burn through the anchors, anyway, and I don't think it's a crime. Fourth (or maybe first), what does TRing through the anchors have to do with the "controversy" I was addressing—rapping vs. lowering—anyway? Jay
I was riffing about how the trend is more towards convenience and less towards saving the anchor hardware. So I simply took it the next logical step, and imagined the resulting controversy.
GO
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jt512
Feb 14, 2012, 10:15 PM
Post #65 of 66
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cracklover wrote: I was riffing about how the trend is more towards convenience and less towards saving the anchor hardware. So I simply took it the next logical step, and imagined the resulting controversy. GO
Is the trend toward convenience? N00bs are becoming increasingly fixated on "saving" the anchors. Well-bolted cracks (like the one below) are being "greenpointed." And old convenience anchors at trad areas are being chopped faster than new ones are being installed. I don't see the trend you are referring to.
Jay
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shockabuku
Feb 15, 2012, 2:10 AM
Post #66 of 66
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jt512 wrote: if in the future some new generation of anchors is intended for toproping, I'll be one of the first to toprope through them. As it is, I occasionally take a TR burn through the anchors, anyway, and I don't think it's a crime. Fourth (or maybe first), what does TRing through the anchors have to do with the "controversy" I was addressing—rapping vs. lowering—anyway? Jay
SCANDAL!
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