Just you using one rope that you have knowledge of is obviously pretty safe. But in reality ends do get cut off (unlike the other silly malicious damage you suggested, more likely with a 70 that you alluded to using) and ropes do get passed around. You sound like you are at the point where you aren't aware of the extent to which these things happen.

I started out suggesting that you use caution on the first rap of the day to make sure that the apparent middle actually is. If you think that is overkill - fine - don't bother. I personally think that knots in the end are overkill 99% of the time and rarely use them - most often with a nervous partner.

Mistaking a middle marker has resulted in the death of one friend and a badly broken leg in another - so I'm somewhat skeptical.

Experience trolling the internet? Give me a single logical reason, why I shouldn't use a middle mark to line up my rope on a rappel.

You're only argument so far was that my rope will be somehow shortened without my knowledge. I pointed out that if gear can dangerously change without your knowledge, then all sorts of crazy shit could happen that will kill you.

So you came back by calling me inexperienced. I'm sure that's always a good trump card to play every time you make up an arbitrary statements about rock climbing.

bagging as in saddlebagging or some variation thereoff ...

like i said if the wind is bowing like crazy, i prefer not to be throwing my ropes, knotted or unknotted ... they can get stuck either way ...

as to multi ... i run up a 6+ pitch multi on average 3+ times a week in climbing seasons and a 12+ pitch multi once a week at least ... some have rap offs, others dont

knotting is yr choice ... but like i said i would bet that more people die of rapping off the ends of the rope than getting stuck on rap ... especially when yr cold, tired, and hungry, in the dark ... or when yr in a rush ...

and no you dont trust middle marks or pattern changes unless its yr rope or you know its accurate ...

here my "clients" (im not a guide) on the last pitch of a 14 pitch multi last week ... walked right off

[image]http://i46.tinypic.com/11vi6fk.jpg[/image]

Gotta tell you - I hate reading "..." and "yr" every 5-10 words with no capitals and periods.

The last thing I need is a stuck rope. And plenty people have died because they got stranded on a cliff face when bad weather rolled in. It happens.

there is no real reason not to tie knots on the ends of your ropes, as you said it should really be done all the time

Luckily I've never really been in a proper shit situation when it comes to rapping off, but I like to think I would be able to weigh up the pros and cons of stacking/bagging/knots/etc. to minimize risk if I did. Which I guess is all you can do - pick the technique least likely to end up with you fucked*.

The fundamental issue isn't the lack of knots. Its the lack of consideration of this danger. Those that tie knots in their ropes generally don't need their knots because they've already considered the issue.

Gotta tell you - I hate reading "..." and "yr" every 5-10 words with no capitals and periods.

Ain't that the truth. If we're not using my rope, I always ask, "how long is this rope?"

I got bit by that one a long time ago. Never again.

Quite likely?? I would say its absolutely certain. People tend to epic when their ropes get stuck but the don't often die.

Epicing can be fun. Dying never is.

look back as you rap and monitor the ends.

^What he said. Whether I have knots in the ends or not. I may not always tie knots in my rap ropes, but I consider it every single time and I always keep a careful eye below me.