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majid_sabet
Aug 3, 2013, 3:54 PM
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The climber was repelling down a cliff at Little Cottonwood Canyon just below Tanner flat with his 21-year-old son. The man hit the rock head on and fell 40 -60 feet. http://www.abc4.com/...DH0u6kjOxqHHpiw.cspx
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Rudmin
Aug 3, 2013, 10:07 PM
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It seems a little bit unnecessary to mention that the man was repelling.
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Syd
Aug 3, 2013, 10:22 PM
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I reckon at least 90% of people rap without an autoblock. No wonder accidents like this happen.
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Syd
Aug 3, 2013, 10:54 PM
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Quite right bearbreeder but a knock on the head (or a knock anywhere) then a fall is not uncommon when not using an autoblock.
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Syd
Aug 3, 2013, 11:49 PM
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I used to use an ATC and I used to rely on a bottom belay when repping. I reckon I did about 1000 raps till one time I accidentally did the unthinkable - slipped across into a cave half way down a rap and momentarily let go - fortunately I was able to grab the tail before a serious accident. I can easily see how more accidents happen rapping than climbing. I now use my mega jul auto locker ... as light and cheap as an ATC but much safer.
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rgold
Aug 4, 2013, 3:32 AM
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Bearbreeder hit the nail on the head---rush to judgement (complete with made-up statistics) is right. It wasn't even a rappelling accident, so the presence or absence of an autoblock had nothing to do with this one.
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david_g48
Aug 4, 2013, 1:52 PM
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I agree with do not assume that we know what happened when the facts have not all been reported with accuracy. I think that we still have doubt as to what really happened. After listening to the video several times it looks like he had been leading a climb that he was being lowered or rapping off of when the anchors failed and a piece of protection that he used lower down the climb caught him. Also, it could have been that he fell while leading and the top piece failed. The reason that I feel he was finished with the climb was that his son used the word anchors implying more than one piece in the same spot which is usually done at the end of a climb as rap anchors but not always. Conclusion is that I'm still not sure what happened except that he fell and was injured. Thoughts???
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curt
Aug 4, 2013, 5:26 PM
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My thoughts are that the quality of reporting on accidents like this is simply awful. With what has been presented thus far, it's still impossible to determine what really happened. Curt
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socalclimber
Aug 5, 2013, 2:49 AM
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rgold wrote: Bearbreeder hit the nail on the head---rush to judgement (complete with made-up statistics) is right. It wasn't even a rappelling accident, so the presence or absence of an autoblock had nothing to do with this one. Agreed. I'm the "junior" of the people I climb and guide with and I've got 20+ years under my belt and a lot of mileage. Most of people I climb with have been at it for 35 to 40+ years. None of us use autoblocs. Rule 1: Know where the ends of your rope ARE Rule 2: PAY ATTENTION By the way Syd, people have died because they botched their autobloc and relied on it rather than checking their systems. Nothing can save you from yourself.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 5, 2013, 2:51 AM)
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Syd
Aug 5, 2013, 4:32 AM
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socalclimber wrote: By the way Syd, people have died because they botched their autobloc and relied on it rather than checking their systems. Nothing can save you from yourself. Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries like the branch that went up through behind a fellow's balls and out his side not so long ago.
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socalclimber
Aug 5, 2013, 4:59 AM
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I don't disagree with the use of an autobloc, I teach it's use and encourage it to new climbers. My problem was more with your "data".
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Syd
Aug 5, 2013, 5:32 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I don't disagree with the use of an autobloc, I teach it's use and encourage it to new climbers. My problem was more with your "data". Sure, my "data" is based on my experience alone.
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tminus44
Aug 5, 2013, 1:43 PM
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Syd wrote: At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries like the branch that went up through behind a fellow's balls and out his side not so long ago. Is there an article on that injury?
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billl7
Aug 5, 2013, 1:51 PM
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Syd wrote: Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries .... That's sort of like being a little bit pregnant. Edit: i.e., a phrase with no practical use. Slows you down implies some kind of braking ability under speed. Unlikely. Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. Not a characteristic to promote for folks to count on for protecting life. Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 5, 2013, 4:38 PM)
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marc801
Aug 5, 2013, 4:28 PM
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Syd wrote: Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries.... Use one or not - it's your choice - but this quote is quite incorrect.
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Syd
Aug 5, 2013, 9:16 PM
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I suppose it wouldn't slow you down if you had it tied loosely and were stupid enough to keep all pressure off it so the rope ran freely.
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marc801
Aug 6, 2013, 12:24 AM
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Syd wrote: I suppose it wouldn't slow you down if you had it tied loosely and were stupid enough to keep all pressure off it so the rope ran freely. Precisely that has happened when people have placed the autoblock/prussik above the rap device and held it in their hand to keep it from inadvertently locking. Something goes wrong, the rappeller panics, and uses a death grip on the autoblock, preventing it from doing its job. You're the one advocating an autoblock for people who stupidly let go of the rope when they do something like unexpectedly swing over a cave.
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wonderwoman
Aug 6, 2013, 1:40 AM
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billl7 wrote: Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. I can't really picture this happening with a properly set up autobloc. Can you please elaborate? Has anybody heard of this type of dramatic failure?
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billl7
Aug 6, 2013, 1:57 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: billl7 wrote: Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. I can't really picture this happening with a properly set up autobloc. Can you please elaborate? Has anybody heard of this type of dramatic failure? Elaborating - To be clear, I have a hard time imagining tuning an autoblock just right for any given rope / cord / device combination on a given day that lets an out-of-control rap continue but slows it down to a notice-able degree. I've done some backyard testing of autoblocks over a variety of cord/rope configs and found it to not have the above kind of fine tuning. Edit to reference the data: Rappelling accident, 60' fall As for melting through, I have no data. Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 6, 2013, 2:39 AM)
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wonderwoman
Aug 6, 2013, 2:37 AM
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billl7 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: billl7 wrote: Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. I can't really picture this happening with a properly set up autobloc. Can you please elaborate? Has anybody heard of this type of dramatic failure? Elaborating - To be clear, I have a hard time imagining tuning an autoblock just right for any given rope / cord / device combination on a given day that lets an out-of-control rap continue but slows it down to a notice-able degree. I've done some backyard testing of autoblocks over a variety of cord/rope configs and found it to not have the above kind of fine tuning. As for melting through, I have no data. Bill L Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further. The only way I could see it meling through would be if I were squeezing it or pushing it down with my brake hand. In which case, it would likely first burn my hand, causing me to let go. And then, my cord would jam my rap device.
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billl7
Aug 6, 2013, 2:42 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further. Maybe test if jamming actually happens? I have heard of one accident where jamming occurred under soaking wet conditions. But other evidence indicates some rap devices will simply push the autoblock down like it wasn't even there. Edit: I was assuming Syd meant an autoblock below the rap device and properly set so it can not extend into the rap device.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 6, 2013, 2:45 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 6, 2013, 2:51 AM
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billl7 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further. Maybe test if jamming actually happens? I have heard of one accident where jamming occurred under soaking wet conditions. But other evidence indicates some rap devices will simply push the autoblock down like it wasn't even there. Edit: I was assuming Syd meant an autoblock below the rap device and properly set so it can not extend into the rap device. Yes, the idea of the autobloc is the grip the brake hand should your hand come off. It should not extend into the belay device. Theoretically, it might jam, but that's not its purpose. I have tested the autobloc at low speeds, but never at high speeds (I'm not stupid). I don't see how it would melt and fail, however, under any circumstance, since it is never taking your weight. A friction knot above the device, I can see how that might occur, but never below the device. Josh
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billl7
Aug 6, 2013, 3:33 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I don't see how it would melt and fail, however, under any circumstance, since it is never taking your weight. A friction knot above the device, I can see how that might occur, but never below the device. Josh Are we confident enough (as Syd seems to be) to promote that it can be reliably configured to not melt but still be helpful while slipping? On a long rap, there's a lot of energy to be dissipated to do that. Bill L Edit: I meant the above in the context of brake-hand forces.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 6, 2013, 4:00 AM)
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Syd
Aug 6, 2013, 11:48 PM
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I found this: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-4867.html?s=fca3499485e46f896957d62f57f64602 The fellow recommends this: http://www.bluewaterropes.com/home/productsinfo.asp?Channel=Occupation&Group=&GroupKey=&Category=Sewn%20Prusiks/Purcells%20and%20Rope%20Lanyards&CategoryKey=&ProdKey=367 I now use a mega jul for raps.
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billl7
Aug 7, 2013, 3:24 AM
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Aha! I haven't read it all but sounds like a case where it melted through and slowed down the rap. But I still think its a bad idea to error on the side of it not working properly a la: "Well, it seems a little loose in this config but at least it might slow me down." Better to error on the other side else total failure is not far away. Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 7, 2013, 4:01 AM)
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distantThunder
Aug 8, 2013, 12:41 AM
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First, very sorry to hear about a tragic accident. Prayers for the family and friends involved. It's interesting to hear more people talking about autoblocs. They were not used in the old days. Back in prehistoric times, when folks just used Figure-8's (or Munter hitches ... doncha love 'em!), and then later ATC's, we basically relied on competent rapelling. Use a rig that has enough friction for your purposes, stay balanced, stay in control - mentally and physically. And in a group - just send the most competent (or the most expendable!) person first and ask them to belay from the ground by tugging the rope - when the next person is on. I think when you add more and more gear - the system may not be getting safer. It can get too complex. dT
(This post was edited by distantThunder on Aug 8, 2013, 12:42 AM)
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socalclimber
Aug 8, 2013, 4:08 AM
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My all time favorite device is still the stich plate with out the spring. If you know how to use one, they work like a champ. I agree, the newer climbers these days are heavily gear reliant. Keep the systems simple and PAY ATTENTION, and KNOW WHERE YOUR ROPE ENDS ARE.
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majid_sabet
Aug 8, 2013, 5:32 AM
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distantThunder wrote: First, very sorry to hear about a tragic accident. Prayers for the family and friends involved. It's interesting to hear more people talking about autoblocs. They were not used in the old days. Back in prehistoric times, when folks just used Figure-8's (or Munter hitches ... doncha love 'em!), and then later ATC's, we basically relied on competent rapelling. Use a rig that has enough friction for your purposes, stay balanced, stay in control - mentally and physically. And in a group - just send the most competent (or the most expendable!) person first and ask them to belay from the ground by tugging the rope - when the next person is on. I think when you add more and more gear - the system may not be getting safer. It can get too complex. dT autoblock and anything with auto mentality is asking for trouble so relaying on auto device to stop you from killing yourself is not the solution . in fact auto devices can contribute or disaster. pilots,even with best of auto devices still work with two people double and triple checking everything before take offs or landing with checklist on their hand one reading and another following and check marking the list over and over again till every one is walking out of gate. climbing is no different than flying with thin line between life and death. you want to stay alive in this sport then double check your list before rapping down the line any other way, could end up in a black bag ( or blue ).
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 8, 2013, 12:26 PM
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billl7 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: I don't see how it would melt and fail, however, under any circumstance, since it is never taking your weight. A friction knot above the device, I can see how that might occur, but never below the device. Josh Are we confident enough (as Syd seems to be) to promote that it can be reliably configured to not melt but still be helpful while slipping? On a long rap, there's a lot of energy to be dissipated to do that. Bill L Edit: I meant the above in the context of brake-hand forces. Confident enough? Yes. 100% confident? Are we that confident with anything in climbing? Are you 100% confident that your gear will catch you when you fall? Josh
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billl7
Aug 8, 2013, 1:23 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Confident enough? Yes. 100% confident? Are we that confident with anything in climbing? Are you 100% confident that your gear will catch you when you fall? I define 100% confidence that pro will catch me as that I'm willing to bet my life on it. In the spectrum of acceptable to marginal to unacceptable pro, the one's I'd bet my life on are the acceptable placements. And I'll quickly add that a lead fall can be hard enough or rock apparently poor enough that there is no placement in the "acceptable" sub-range even for a text-book placement. (Nothing knew to you in this I know.) I'm not willing to bet my life on the the marginal setting of an autoblock - in that I mean the french prusik, either explicitly or through developing habits that rely on it. And I wouldn't promote doing so to others. Because, one can always configure it to absolutely have enough friction to stop an out-of-control rap ... although of course one can go to the point of an impractical amount of friction. Bill L P.S. Full disclosure - I don't use a french prusik on the brake strand.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 8, 2013, 1:25 PM)
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distantThunder
Aug 8, 2013, 6:31 PM
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you know - it would be nice if this thread was re-titled. Or someone took a number of the posts here, and copied them over to a new thread with a name like "Staying Safe On Rappel". I'll pass on a couple of foul-ups that happened to me when I was a junior climber, In retrospect, I am lucky these incidents didn't kill me. The trouble with being a junior climber is that you know just enough to get yourself in trouble - but not enough about how to get out of it. Hahahaha! Beats me how I survived some of this stuff. Tightened Prusik In the old days we did not have anything fancy like professional autobloc's. But we did have the good old fashioned prusik knot that could be slid down the rope ABOVE our rappel device. The idea sounded plausible to me when I was a young guy. But the trouble with sliding a prusik on the rope (as an emergency to catch you if you fall) is this ... what do you do when the prusik actually tightens up? Of couse, that's what happened, I was rapelling, somehow I put too much force with my top hand on the prusik knot, and the stupid thing just tightened up. GREAT - not! A perfectly safe rappel just became very complicated. What do I do now, I thought? I'm hanging from a rope by a prusik knot tied by some cord to my belay loop. My rappel device is connected, but it's loose - the prusik is holding my weight. For a young climber this situation is challenging mentally. Really, you are still learning to be confident with normal rappels. You are not ready for the process of tying off a rappel device, unweighting a prusik, and stayin mentally cool while you sort out the mess. I don't remember what I did at the time, but apparently it must have worked because I am still around. I do remember that I never used a prusik again as a backup. The point is that complicated backup gear can suddenly transform a simple maneuver into something that is quite unexpected. Do new climbers have the skills to unravel a "mess" while hanging rom the side of a cliff. It's dangerous. T-Shirt Mania Here's an even greater piece of idiocy. But so simple to do. Again while I as a young climber on rappel. I used to wear loose T-shirts. Why ... becaue it was really hot on the rocks in California. So my T-shirt is hanging out, I am rappelling down ,and you guessed it - the end of my T-shirt feeds up into the Figure-8 device. It gets totally tangled up in the rope and the Figure-8. And again I am hanging from the side of a cliff. Now the positive side of this - is that a loose T-shirt makes a great autobloc. HAHAHA!! You are not going anywhere. But the negative side is that unless you have jumars and etriers, a cool mind, and a LOT of patience - you are freakin not going to untangle the T-shirt from the rappel gear. It's a very dangerous situation. If I recall, I actually asked a friend to thow me up a small folding knife and somehow managed to cut off the end of the T-shirt and unravel the mess, and get myself sorted out. But this solution is a journey into the Land Of Lunacy. Hahaha! Because now you've got a junior climber hanging from a cliff, in a state of confusion, with a knife in one hand and ropes under tension. It could have ended badly. It is a miracle that we survive a lot of this cr**. I suppose it's some sort of Darwinian test to find out whether you can think clearly under stress. But it's not a good way to operate. And yes - I did learn to keep my T-shirt tucked in. Hahahaha!! In the end the old-fashioned guys just learned to work with simple gear and tried-and-true techniques. More often than not - that is the real lifesaver. dT
(This post was edited by distantThunder on Aug 8, 2013, 6:43 PM)
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bearbreeder
Aug 8, 2013, 7:27 PM
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the biggest problem i have with autoloblocks or prussiks is that many newbies i find who depend on them all the time dont know how to rappel very well at all because its the only way they ever learned, theyll often jerk all over the place going down in little spurts ... they never learn to let gravity do its work on raps, just sit back ... this makes rappels particularly time consuming and on more marginal rap anchors, dangerous the other issue is the over dependance of the backup ... i see many who rap with poor technique and control because they believe the backup will always save them ... once of these days you wont have a prussik and youll have to do raps ... there was a video posted not too long ago where some canyoneer leaned back onto his backup and fell to the ground ... he mistied it, and didnt have the experience to keep a hand on the brake
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marc801
Aug 8, 2013, 7:40 PM
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Syd wrote: I found this: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-4867.html?s=fca3499485e46f896957d62f57f64602 The fellow recommends this: http://www.bluewaterropes.com/home/productsinfo.asp?Channel=Occupation&Group=&GroupKey=&Category=Sewn%20Prusiks/Purcells%20and%20Rope%20Lanyards&CategoryKey=&ProdKey=367 I now use a mega jul for raps. Maybe you should just learn how to rappel properly.
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Danxz
Aug 8, 2013, 9:08 PM
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marc801 wrote: Syd wrote: I found this: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-4867.html?s=fca3499485e46f896957d62f57f64602 The fellow recommends this: http://www.bluewaterropes.com/home/productsinfo.asp?Channel=Occupation&Group=&GroupKey=&Category=Sewn%20Prusiks/Purcells%20and%20Rope%20Lanyards&CategoryKey=&ProdKey=367 I now use a mega jul for raps. Maybe you should just learn how to rappel properly. What's your point ? Some form of auto block should be used for raps, which is quite correct.
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distantThunder
Aug 8, 2013, 10:28 PM
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"and didnt have the experience to keep a hand on the brake " yup. right there. the old-timers NEVER took their hand off the brake. Never. That was grilled into you. :-) "the biggest problem i have with autoloblocks or prussiks is that many newbies i find who depend on them all the time dont know how to rappel very well at all " also very good feedback. people would learn faster IMO if they rapped with simple gear, did a lot of practice on very straightforward terrain, and if necessary a third party kept them on a separate belay rope. Better to learn the right techniques with minimum gear. Then with experience they can judge whether to add extra hardware - personal preference. dT
(This post was edited by distantThunder on Aug 8, 2013, 10:34 PM)
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marc801
Aug 9, 2013, 6:31 AM
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Danxz wrote: What's your point ? Some form of auto block should be used for raps, which is quite correct. Well, no, that isn't correct. That's just your preference.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 9, 2013, 12:19 PM
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billl7 wrote: I define 100% confidence that pro will catch me as that I'm willing to bet my life on it. In the spectrum of acceptable to marginal to unacceptable pro, the one's I'd bet my life on are the acceptable placements. And I'll quickly add that a lead fall can be hard enough or rock apparently poor enough that there is no placement in the "acceptable" sub-range even for a text-book placement. (Nothing knew to you in this I know.) I'm not willing to bet my life on the the marginal setting of an autoblock - in that I mean the french prusik, either explicitly or through developing habits that rely on it. And I wouldn't promote doing so to others. Because, one can always configure it to absolutely have enough friction to stop an out-of-control rap ... although of course one can go to the point of an impractical amount of friction. Bill L P.S. Full disclosure - I don't use a french prusik on the brake strand. I'm not entirely sure it's apppropriate to have this discussion in this forum, so I will stop. If you want to open a new thread on the merits of a rappel backup, I will gladly contribute, but I will say one last thing. No one should "depend on" or "bet their life" with a backup. That's why they call it a back up. Josh
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billl7
Aug 9, 2013, 12:54 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: No one should "depend on" or "bet their life" with a backup. That's why they call it a back up. I would agree they should not be routinely exercised. But when needed, they should be designed / configured to work as intended. If one intends for an autoblock to slip and possibly melt, then I guess that is ok too. Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 9, 2013, 12:57 PM)
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majid_sabet
Aug 9, 2013, 3:46 PM
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...id%20rapple;#1381870 $ Am I tied in to any thing on top while setting up my system $ How is my anchor, is it bomb proof and safe # Did I wear my harness correctly # What type of belay device am I going to use today #$ Do I have the proper training with this device or is it my first time #$ Does my rope size is a correct size with this belay device #$ How do I slow my descent with this device and or stop myself $ Do I have a back up in place to stop my sudden descent #@ Do I need to wear gloves for this long rappel $ How old is this rope $ Why am I descending too fast #$ How far am I descending #$ Does the end of this rope reaches the ground $ Since this is a multi-rappel, do I have the end of rope tied in case I fall @ Where are my next belay stations $ How good is my next belay station $ Do I need to beef-up my next station, if so do I have the materials to do this @ They lied, there are no second belay station, what am I going to do now @ How long would it take to get down, it is getting dark, do I need a flash light $ If using two rope, what are the hazards of pulling the rope, getting it stuck @# Sh*t I forgot to tie safety knot and one end is 16 feet shorter, how do I fix it @ Is taking longer than I thought, its getting cold and windy, where is my parka @ I was using this prusik as back up and now it is locked, how do I unlock it @ Ohh Fu^k I dropped my ATC, how do I rappel now # Some dude told me about rappelling with that weird knot and biner, I forgot and I am stuck here with no belay device $ Stop swinging with that rope dude, do not you see the sharp edge above @ I feel so happy to be down but sh*t this is wrong canyon #$ I am scared of rappelling can you lower me with your device @ Based on actual accident report where climber got rescued # Based on actual accident report where climber got injured $ Based on actual accident report where climber got killed
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 9, 2013, 10:04 PM)
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climbingtrash
Aug 10, 2013, 2:59 AM
Post #45 of 55
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Registered: Jan 19, 2006
Posts: 5114
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Syd wrote: socalclimber wrote: By the way Syd, people have died because they botched their autobloc and relied on it rather than checking their systems. Nothing can save you from yourself. Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries like the branch that went up through behind a fellow's balls and out his side not so long ago. In the case of a Canyoneer in Zion last September, his autoblock played a part in the loss of his life. After his autoblock became jammed in his rappel device while hanging in a waterfall, he chose to cut his waist belt which sent him over backwards and left him hanging by his feet, which were stuck in the leg loops. <<<( that was not stated in the Park news release but I know some of the SAR guys here) http://www.nps.gov/...ictim-identified.htm
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Danxz
Aug 10, 2013, 3:33 AM
Post #46 of 55
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Registered: Aug 7, 2013
Posts: 17
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Sounds like inexperience was a big factor. No telling how he tied his autoblock or what he did. I would imagine it would be much harder to screw up with an autolocking belay device like the alpine smart etc.
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marc801
Aug 10, 2013, 3:51 AM
Post #47 of 55
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Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2806
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Danxz wrote: Sounds like inexperience was a big factor. No telling how he tied his autoblock or what he did. I would imagine it would be much harder to screw up with an autolocking belay device like the alpine smart etc. IN that incident there is no question that inexperience was the primary factor. But so many in this thread are advocating precisely that (in some cases without realizing what they're really saying) - substituting and autoblock for experience. Your post was one of them.
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patto
Sep 1, 2013, 12:55 PM
Post #48 of 55
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Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
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wonderwoman wrote: Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further. That is idiotic. Your rap device might not jam, if often doesn't. In which case you have no backup. If you are going to use an autobloc, for gods sake make sure it works reliably.
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Danxz
Sep 3, 2013, 5:13 AM
Post #49 of 55
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Registered: Aug 7, 2013
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marc801 wrote: Danxz wrote: Sounds like inexperience was a big factor. No telling how he tied his autoblock or what he did. I would imagine it would be much harder to screw up with an autolocking belay device like the alpine smart etc. IN that incident there is no question that inexperience was the primary factor. But so many in this thread are advocating precisely that (in some cases without realizing what they're really saying) - substituting and autoblock for experience. Your post was one of them. What bs. Nothing is a substitute for experience. An autoblock or autolock simply adds to safety. There's endless stories of very experienced climbers who have died making stupid errors. Anything that adds to safety is worthwhile ... unless you some idiot who wants to die.
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Danxz
Sep 3, 2013, 8:27 AM
Post #51 of 55
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Registered: Aug 7, 2013
Posts: 17
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I do whatever is best for the situation.
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patto
Sep 3, 2013, 12:43 PM
Post #52 of 55
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Registered: Nov 15, 2005
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Danxz wrote: An autoblock or autolock simply adds to safety. The evidence for this is not particularly compelling. Many times autoblocks are used totally inappropriately. Even this thread has descriptions of flawed autoblock usage. A non functional backup is less safe that no backup. The evidence for autolocking belay devices don't seem particularly better either. There have been countless noob mistakes with grigris, in no small part due to the complacency they breed.
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dagibbs
Sep 3, 2013, 2:33 PM
Post #53 of 55
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Registered: Oct 1, 2007
Posts: 921
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Danxz wrote: climbers who have died making stupid errors. Anything that adds to safety is worthwhile ... unless you some idiot who wants to die. Just about every absolute statement is false. Especially on the internet. All safety choices are about balancing costs and advantages. If you truly believed that "anything that adds to safety..." that anything would be to not go rock climbing, since that would increase your safety. Also, you would never get in a car and drive on the public roads, or...
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wonderwoman
Sep 3, 2013, 8:37 PM
Post #54 of 55
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Registered: Dec 14, 2002
Posts: 4275
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patto wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further. That is idiotic. Your rap device might not jam, if often doesn't. In which case you have no backup. If you are going to use an autobloc, for gods sake make sure it works reliably. My autobloc works reliably. Thanks for your concern, though.
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