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majid_sabet
Aug 3, 2013, 3:54 PM
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The climber was repelling down a cliff at Little Cottonwood Canyon just below Tanner flat with his 21-year-old son.
The man hit the rock head on and fell 40 -60 feet.
http://www.abc4.com/...DH0u6kjOxqHHpiw.cspx
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Rudmin
Aug 3, 2013, 10:07 PM
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It seems a little bit unnecessary to mention that the man was repelling.
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Syd
Aug 3, 2013, 10:22 PM
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I reckon at least 90% of people rap without an autoblock. No wonder accidents like this happen.
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Syd
Aug 3, 2013, 10:54 PM
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Quite right bearbreeder but a knock on the head (or a knock anywhere) then a fall is not uncommon when not using an autoblock.
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Syd
Aug 3, 2013, 11:49 PM
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I used to use an ATC and I used to rely on a bottom belay when repping. I reckon I did about 1000 raps till one time I accidentally did the unthinkable - slipped across into a cave half way down a rap and momentarily let go - fortunately I was able to grab the tail before a serious accident. I can easily see how more accidents happen rapping than climbing.
I now use my mega jul auto locker ... as light and cheap as an ATC but much safer.
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rgold
Aug 4, 2013, 3:32 AM
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Bearbreeder hit the nail on the head---rush to judgement (complete with made-up statistics) is right. It wasn't even a rappelling accident, so the presence or absence of an autoblock had nothing to do with this one.
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david_g48
Aug 4, 2013, 1:52 PM
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I agree with do not assume that we know what happened when the facts have not all been reported with accuracy. I think that we still have doubt as to what really happened. After listening to the video several times it looks like he had been leading a climb that he was being lowered or rapping off of when the anchors failed and a piece of protection that he used lower down the climb caught him. Also, it could have been that he fell while leading and the top piece failed. The reason that I feel he was finished with the climb was that his son used the word anchors implying more than one piece in the same spot which is usually done at the end of a climb as rap anchors but not always. Conclusion is that I'm still not sure what happened except that he fell and was injured. Thoughts???
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curt
Aug 4, 2013, 5:26 PM
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My thoughts are that the quality of reporting on accidents like this is simply awful. With what has been presented thus far, it's still impossible to determine what really happened.
Curt
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socalclimber
Aug 5, 2013, 2:49 AM
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rgold wrote: Bearbreeder hit the nail on the head---rush to judgement (complete with made-up statistics) is right. It wasn't even a rappelling accident, so the presence or absence of an autoblock had nothing to do with this one.
Agreed. I'm the "junior" of the people I climb and guide with and I've got 20+ years under my belt and a lot of mileage. Most of people I climb with have been at it for 35 to 40+ years. None of us use autoblocs.
Rule 1: Know where the ends of your rope ARE
Rule 2: PAY ATTENTION
By the way Syd, people have died because they botched their autobloc and relied on it rather than checking their systems. Nothing can save you from yourself.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 5, 2013, 2:51 AM)
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Syd
Aug 5, 2013, 4:32 AM
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socalclimber wrote: By the way Syd, people have died because they botched their autobloc and relied on it rather than checking their systems. Nothing can save you from yourself.
Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries like the branch that went up through behind a fellow's balls and out his side not so long ago.
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socalclimber
Aug 5, 2013, 4:59 AM
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I don't disagree with the use of an autobloc, I teach it's use and encourage it to new climbers. My problem was more with your "data".
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Syd
Aug 5, 2013, 5:32 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I don't disagree with the use of an autobloc, I teach it's use and encourage it to new climbers. My problem was more with your "data".
Sure, my "data" is based on my experience alone.
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tminus44
Aug 5, 2013, 1:43 PM
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Syd wrote: At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries like the branch that went up through behind a fellow's balls and out his side not so long ago.
Is there an article on that injury?
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billl7
Aug 5, 2013, 1:51 PM
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Syd wrote: Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries ....
That's sort of like being a little bit pregnant. Edit: i.e., a phrase with no practical use.
Slows you down implies some kind of braking ability under speed. Unlikely. Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. Not a characteristic to promote for folks to count on for protecting life.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 5, 2013, 4:38 PM)
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marc801
Aug 5, 2013, 4:28 PM
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Syd wrote: Yep, I agree but an autoblock does help. At least it usually slows you down and helps prevent injuries....
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Syd
Aug 5, 2013, 9:16 PM
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I suppose it wouldn't slow you down if you had it tied loosely and were stupid enough to keep all pressure off it so the rope ran freely.
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marc801
Aug 6, 2013, 12:24 AM
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Syd wrote: I suppose it wouldn't slow you down if you had it tied loosely and were stupid enough to keep all pressure off it so the rope ran freely.
Precisely that has happened when people have placed the autoblock/prussik above the rap device and held it in their hand to keep it from inadvertently locking. Something goes wrong, the rappeller panics, and uses a death grip on the autoblock, preventing it from doing its job.
You're the one advocating an autoblock for people who stupidly let go of the rope when they do something like unexpectedly swing over a cave.
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wonderwoman
Aug 6, 2013, 1:40 AM
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billl7 wrote: Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through.
I can't really picture this happening with a properly set up autobloc. Can you please elaborate? Has anybody heard of this type of dramatic failure?
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billl7
Aug 6, 2013, 1:57 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: billl7 wrote: Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. I can't really picture this happening with a properly set up autobloc. Can you please elaborate? Has anybody heard of this type of dramatic failure?
Elaborating - To be clear, I have a hard time imagining tuning an autoblock just right for any given rope / cord / device combination on a given day that lets an out-of-control rap continue but slows it down to a notice-able degree.
I've done some backyard testing of autoblocks over a variety of cord/rope configs and found it to not have the above kind of fine tuning. Edit to reference the data: Rappelling accident, 60' fall
As for melting through, I have no data.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 6, 2013, 2:39 AM)
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wonderwoman
Aug 6, 2013, 2:37 AM
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billl7 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: billl7 wrote: Even if a given configuration happens to have that ability, the autoblock will quickly melt through. I can't really picture this happening with a properly set up autobloc. Can you please elaborate? Has anybody heard of this type of dramatic failure? - To be clear, I have a hard time imagining tuning an autoblock just right for any given rope / cord / device combination on a given day that lets an out-of-control rap continue but slows it down to a notice-able degree. I've done some backyard testing of autoblocks over a variety of cord/rope configs and found it to not have the above kind of fine tuning. As for melting through, I have no data. Bill L
Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further.
The only way I could see it meling through would be if I were squeezing it or pushing it down with my brake hand. In which case, it would likely first burn my hand, causing me to let go. And then, my cord would jam my rap device.
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billl7
Aug 6, 2013, 2:42 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: Personally, I set up my autobloc on my brake hand side. If I were to lose control, my cord would eventually jam up my rap device, preventing me from going further.
Maybe test if jamming actually happens?
I have heard of one accident where jamming occurred under soaking wet conditions. But other evidence indicates some rap devices will simply push the autoblock down like it wasn't even there.
Edit: I was assuming Syd meant an autoblock below the rap device and properly set so it can not extend into the rap device.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 6, 2013, 2:45 AM)
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