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calpolyclimber
Jan 21, 2003, 5:39 AM
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The other day at the crag me and my buddies came across another group of climbers who had tied a fig. 8 loop in the end of thier rope and were clipping into the rope with their belay biner (on belay loop). From everything I have learned, this is a bad idea, and I told them so. I know you never tie into the belay loop, but do other people just swap the rope between climbers using a locker? We're talking top rope situations. It just seemed sketchy to me (they seemed to be pretty inexperienced), so I told them.
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woodse
Jan 21, 2003, 5:42 AM
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Why add another piece to the equation? Thats my philosophy.
woodsE
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calpolyclimber
Jan 21, 2003, 5:44 AM
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Thats what I was thinking, K.I.S.S....
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tradaddict
Jan 21, 2003, 5:47 AM
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Lazyness breeds injury and worse in climbing, but maybe they were never taught the (I hesitate to use this term because it begs to be flamed) "correct" way to tie in and you did them a major favour by bringing it to their attention. Kudos on caring for your fellow climbers.
Deirdre
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fitz
Jan 21, 2003, 5:58 AM
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This is actually shown on the instructions with some biners. I've actually used (two) biner tie-in in a simulated rescue situation.
In a top rope situation, provided that the rope is kept reasonably tight, it is pretty safe. After all, it is basically a one biner tie in at the belayer's end!
But, in addition to the KISS comment (which I agree with), and the potential for cross loading and open gate situations, another thing to think about is the rope. The ends wear out fast enough as it is. Pounding on the same 1" over and over, along with tightening one eight to the size of a jellybean is pretty hard on a line!
-jjf
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dustinap
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Jan 21, 2003, 6:10 AM
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On rec.climbing this was discussed some months ago. The final outcome of the discussion, quite long I may add, was that it isn't the best idea given typical circumstances. You should try looking up the topic up on google.
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galt
Jan 21, 2003, 6:16 AM
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Although you CAN do tie into a biner (although I wouldn't advise through a belay loop) why would you? Why throw in another piece of equipment to double check? I think it would be safe, but I'm smart enough not to trust my life to "I think." I saw a demo where someone used a "Twist and Pull" biner and showed us how an 8 could actually unclip if you take a fall a certian way. That was enough of a demo for me never to try it again, but with a normal screw-gate biner it "I think" it would be safe.....
I think
(nope, I'm taking the time to tie-in old school)
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tradaddict
Jan 21, 2003, 6:18 AM
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^^That's exactly what they are talking about when they say KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.
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twolcott75
Jan 21, 2003, 1:38 PM
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My brother was on a emergency response team at an oil refinery and they also used the biner to tie in. The process was to tie a eight on a bite and connect it through the leg and waist loops (not the belay loop)with the biner. I am fairly sure that they were instructed by the chicago fire department high altitude response team.
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esimhs99
Jan 21, 2003, 1:39 PM
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they do this at the gym with little kids. i think that it is a KISS situation for those who are not as experienced, and maybe are just out there for the day having fun and are not really serious about it
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lazide
Jan 21, 2003, 2:15 PM
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It is pretty common in small/short gyms (we do it here), because there are so many kids going back and forth (who can not be expected to tie a fig8 correctly, if at all).
It is 'safe enough' on top-rope, but not the optimal solution. If you must use a 'biner, use two - opposite, opposed, and locked.
We use a double bowline to tie into the 'biner as well, as it doesn't cinch up into a total mofo after being fallen on umpteen million times.
We take exceptional care in checking out climbers, have both parties check, etc. Never had an accident or fatality of any kind (in 6 something years of tri-weekly activity) - better than the commercial gyms nearby by far, and with nearly the same amount of traffic.
You weigh the risks, and take your chances, as with anything. In our case, the risk of having the (mostly) inexperienced climbers we deal with tying incorrect knots, is considered worse than the risk of missing an incorrectly/non locked gate on a carabiner.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 2:55 PM
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I have seen this in a few gyms, but with STEEL locking carabiners, not the typical aluminum biners. Steel biners have much higher cross loading strength.
Opinions will vary a bit, but I am of the opinion that this should NOT be done with a regular (aluminum) biner. Some may argue that falling forces are low in a top rope system, and the biner should not "flop" and cross load if the rope is always tight. But I believe there is just too much possibility of a cross load. It is impossible to have the rope taut 100% of the time. Particularly if the climber is under an overhang or roof, where keeping the rope tight will pull him off the wall.
Many climbers (usaully not beginners) like a bit of slack in the system, to make sure that they are doing the moves by themselves, and not intentionally putting weight on the rope. Other situation where there is slack in the top rope system (primarily for more advanced climbers) is when practicing down-climbing, or when you are about to try a dyno.
This is not the same as the biner on the belayer end of the rope, because there is less movement on that end, and the belayer should always be conscious of the biner position.
Also, this is teaching bad habits, and not teaching the "students" how to tie-in properly. The kids at my gym (maybe around 10 yrs) ARE EXPECTED to tie in properly. If they are a bit younger, they should have pretty close adult supervision anyway. So the adults can just tie them in. One might argue that with steel biners at the gym, this is ok. I would be scared if the gym had aluminum biners.
I also agree with the "K.I.S.S." attitude. Why introduce an extra, uneccesary piece of gear to the system?
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cracklover
Jan 21, 2003, 3:43 PM
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As others have said, this is a fairly common practice for kids and low end (read Mall) climbing walls. When perfectly supervised, I suspect it is completely safe. However, a growing number of accidents are causing me to wonder if the supervision level that is available is sufficient for this practice. Many serious accidents are occurring that might be avoided with a proper fig-8 follow-thru tie in. The fact that you can see from a distance whether a fig-8 follow through is tied right means that if a mistake is made, an improper tie in is more likely to be caught before the climber starts than an unlocked or improperly clipped biner clip in. Combine that with the fact that it takes more time and care to tie each kid into the rope, and more attention means fewer mistakes.
All the evidence I've seen so far in the latest accident (referenced below) seems to to point to the biner clip in as the failure point.
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/011603/b0116mallfall.html
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 4:07 PM
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The real danger in the situation you describe is clipping into the belay loop. A screwlock biner clipped into a figure 8 follow-through can be acceptable for certain top-roping situations (short gym climbs, etc.) - but I would clip into both the leg loops and waist belt on the harness.
I hardly ever use my belay loop - when i belay I always clip into both loops on my harness - that way there's always a backup in case the belay loop fails.
I've even seen some people rap routes or clip into the anchors to untie and clean a route only clipped into their belay loop - why take that chance?
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cracklover
Jan 21, 2003, 4:16 PM
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Aarong, was it a typo that transformed your name from Aaron to Aarong, or were you trying to warn unsuspecting users that you will be spewing advice that is a-wrong?
The belay loop is the strongest point on your harness for clipping in to a biner. That's why the manufacturers put it there. Read the instructions that came with your harness, if you don't believe it. Intelligent climbers may argue about specific instances in which clipping in to the waist and leg loops as you described may be acceptable, or even (in rare cases) better. But it's pretty well accepted that for general use, you are wrong - the belay loop is the best clip in point for belaying, primarily to avoid tri-loading the biner. This has been discussed to death over the last eight or so years since harness manufacturers started to switch over. If you don't believe me, do some research.
GO
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womble
Jan 21, 2003, 4:27 PM
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Good grief! Yes, cracklover is correct- one is _supposed_ to use the belay loop when belaying. Using the leg and waist attachments can result in crossloading the belay biner!
People rap using the belay loop so the device is a bit further away from the body and has some slack to be used freely. I guess that using both loops here isn't as big a deal as shockloading is unlikely but it does make the whole rap attachment stiffer.
[ This Message was edited by: womble on 2003-01-21 08:38 ]
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crazywacky
Jan 21, 2003, 4:27 PM
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For tope rope systems, I (and all the people I have climbed with since '92) do the same thing. Well, not to the belay loop.
I put the carabiner through the leg and waist loops, which for me covers 2 pieces of webbing the way my harness is sewn...
And to me, that's pretty darn simple.
Same setup at the gyms I've been to.
All the knots are pre-tied and you clip straight to your harness.
Or, like in one of the gyms, you don't even need a carabineer on your harness, as they are permanently attached to the rope. You unclip the climber’s end from the anchor (daisy chained to the floor), and clip it to your harness.
The belayer gets a gri-gri with a permanently attached (via quick link) carabiner to attach to his/her harness.
No worries about improper tying of knots.
The amount of people that come to gyms that have never climbed before is truly amazing. And they simply cannot be expected to pick up a rope and tie a knot properly in the amount of time that is alloted for a tour of the facilities and a belay test.
And I see no reason what-so-ever to do anything different for TR setups out doors. Especially if you have a group of more than 4 people wanting to do the same climb.
I do it completely different for lead climbing...that's a whole different world and practices in TR climbs do no apply.
I do understand some reasoning behind practicing the same thing whether on TR or lead, but still feel completely safe clipped to a pre-tied loop.
Cracklover - that article points to an automatic belay device.
They dont' normally use rope. It'll be some sort of webbing or cable (though I haven't seen any like that they may exist) with a permanently attached steel 'biner.
I would imagine the climber didn't make sure the gate was closed before he started...or his harness wasn't doubled back.
Just my $.02
(edit to add a "don't")
[ This Message was edited by: crazywacky on 2003-01-21 08:38 ]
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 4:51 PM
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crazywacky:
Just because you "see no reason whatsoever to do anything different" than clip into the rope for TR, does not mean there is no reason!!!!
Read my post above. There is the possibility that the biner will shift into a cross loaded position, greatly compromising the strength of an aluminum biner. While the falling forces in top roping are usually small, why take the risk? Maybe nothing bad will happen. On the other hand, you don't want to be that "one" guy who got hurt or killed because his biner broke. Use a steel biner and you will be relatively safe. Steel biners have much higher cross loaded strength. If you are doing it, at LEAST use a steel biner.
Also, most manufacturers and I believe the UIAA are pretty clear about tying in the rope, not clipping it. Regarding your comment about people who have never climbed: If a person does not know how to tie-in, then they also have NO BUSINESS using a Grigri. Is pretty simple at my gym, if you can't tie-in and belay, you don't climb. The acception being that kids can climb: Parents tie them in and belay them.
If your main reason for clipping the rope is because its "easier" or "faster", than I think thats the wrong reason. Tying/untying only takes one minute. Laziness is no excuse to shortcut widely accepted safety practices.
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cracklover
Jan 21, 2003, 5:00 PM
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crazywacky, thanks for letting us know how you do it in TX. I'd heard about this, but hadn't seen it, and it's always interesting to me to hear how other folks do stuff. As I said, I think that with enough supervision, it's probably safe enough, so long as the biner is properly locked. The only reason why it's acceptable is that the loads in gym TRing are (usually) pretty low. Most biners are good for 8 or 9 kN cross-loaded. Anyway, I'm more concerned about this setup on rappellers' and belayers' harnesses, since their body angles are more likely to create bad stresses on the biner.
Do people at these gyms usually belay from the belay loop, or also from the leg/waist?
GO
[ This Message was edited by: cracklover on 2003-01-21 09:02 ]
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bradhill
Jan 21, 2003, 5:19 PM
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I tie in through biners on lead in a couple of situations, and am leaning more and more towards doing it all the time:
On ice. It really sucks to try to deal with frozen knots with frozen, pumped fingers. Not a good plan to not be able to escape the belay/rope if you need to.
When alpine climbing, especially following, with twins or doubles. If the leader got to a hard spot and hung his pack off a piece of pro to continue, when you get to it you can unclip one strand, clip it into the pack for hauling and continue up on the other.
When speed is important. For leading in blocks, you can just unclip (AFTER daisying in) and switch rope ends instead of restacking the rope.
When I am doing this, I always use TWO large pear biners with opposing gates that are threaded through my harness, not just the belay loop. One biner is NOT enough. Read the "British soloist charged with endangerment" thread in the aid forum to find out why!
With twins and doubles for this technique, I also clip into a "safety eight". Start to tie an eight on a bight, but insead of passing the end of the bight through to finish, fold it and pass a double bight through, then pull the end bight over the top. This gives you two strands to clip into for a "full strength" tie in on skinny ropes.
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Thanks for the reply - but I'll continue to belay off two loops instead of just one. Over time the belay loop gets a lot of wear and tear and I find that if I am clipped into 2 points on my harness (the leg loops and the wasit belt) that I can belay and rap with more control and more safely.
If the belay loop was as safe as using both the leg loops and the waist belt then don't you think harness manufactures would note that it is ok to tie into the belay loop when climbing?
I understand what standard practice is in the traditional sense but I feel safer & I think the person I am belaying feels safer when there is a backup to the system.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 5:56 PM
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I think its a little nitpicky either way. But the UIAA had a statement recently that clipping the belay biner to the waistbelt and leg riser (as opposed to the belay loop) is IMPROPER due to the possibility of the biner becoming positioned improperly and tri-loaded. Also, if you want to quote what the manufacturer says, you will see that your harness instructions instruct you to clip the belay biner to the belay loop.
Your belay loop gets wear and tear? That seems unusual. I don't get any wear on the belay loop. I get wear at the tie in points on the waistband and leg riser.
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jt512
Jan 21, 2003, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
If the belay loop was as safe as using both the leg loops and the waist belt then don't you think harness manufactures would note that it is ok to tie into the belay loop when climbing?
No. We've been through this time and again, and it has also been discussed reapeatedly on rec.climbing. The belay loop is for belaying and rappelling. Using the belay loop reduces the chances of cross-loading the carabiner. Several accidents have been attributed to rappelling or belaying with a figure-8 rappel device clipped into the two tie-in points. The triaxial load stabilizes the biner in the wrong orientation, permitting the figure 8 to leverage open the gate under body weight alone. The results were usually fatal.
While the belay loop would be strong enough for tying in, it is not durable enough to withstand wear from the rope. In contrast, the two tie-in points on the waist belt and leg loops are reinforced so that they wear longer.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2003-01-21 10:48 ]
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superdiamonddave
Jan 21, 2003, 6:01 PM
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I am totally with Aaron on this one. And the orientation of the ATC is correct for belaying and rapelling when the biner is going through the leg and waist loops.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 6:33 PM
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Any actual reason/justification for that dave, or just chiming out? UIAA recommends clipping the belay biner to the belay loop, and NOT the waistbelt, leg riser.
I found a UIAA article referring to one of the accicents that jt512 spoke of. The figure-8 broke the biner because it was clipped to the tie-in points and the rappeller died. Scary.
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 6:43 PM
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It's very simple to avoid cross-loading on a biner clipped into the waist belt and leg loops. I've never had a problem with it. I use a reverso belay/rap device and it works smoothly clipped into the two loops. I would argue, and in fact, am arguing, that it is safer to rappel with a biner clipped through the leg and waist loops rather than just the belay loop.
No one I know raps off only their belay loop - WHY? They wouldn't trust their life clipped into the single loop on rappel - so why trust your buddy's life to it when he is on lead?
You can keep a closer, more secure, more controlled belay by having the belay device cipped into both loops.
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jt512
Jan 21, 2003, 6:53 PM
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Quote:
It's very simple to avoid cross-loading on a biner clipped into the waist belt and leg loops. I've never had a problem with it.
Well, other people have "had a problem with it." They're all dead now, and hence, unable to give their side of the story. Maybe your "problem with it" will happen next weekend.
-Jay
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 6:56 PM
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Well - I'm not worried about it.
But thanks for your concern.
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tanner
Jan 21, 2003, 7:01 PM
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It better to use a double bowline if you want to used a "clipn' go" system its easer on the rope and is easyer to untie.
I think its totaly safe for top rop climbing. I would be more carefull of poor anchers and belayers that don't have a clue. As for being weak A cross loaded beaner in good for about 7kn right.
In a top rope situation where are you going to get 7kn?
See Its safe.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 7:12 PM
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aarong wrote:
"No one I know raps off only their belay loop - WHY? They wouldn't trust their life clipped into the single loop on rappel - so why trust your buddy's life to it when he is on lead?"
That's funny. EVERYONE I know rappels and belays with the belay loop.
Do you really that belaying off the tie-in points is safer becuase thir are 2 pieces of webbing??? The leader is constantly trusting his life to one piece of webbing!!! That is what you clip into when you place a piece of gear or clip a bolt. A runner or draw is just ONE PIECE OF WEBBING. And that is the point at which impact forces are highest. Or do you always use 2 runners/draws? . . .
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jbur
Jan 21, 2003, 7:19 PM
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As for clipping in while top roping, just use double lockers (acceptable) or tie in (best). Belay/rappel loops are called that for a reason. They prevent the biner from becoming cross loaded which has been attributed to a few accidents. I Looked through ANAM and couldn't find reference to a belay loop breaking. Jody
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crazywacky
Jan 21, 2003, 7:29 PM
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OK..here goes..flame-throwers set to BBQ:
Cracklover,
At the gym I work at, the harnesses only have one point to tie/clip in to.
We use the Petzl Tetrax and the Pandion.
As seen in the image below, they only have one point, the little loop of webbing just above the waist.
For my personal harness, I use the leg/waist combo...The way my carabiner fits into it, it doesn't shift around to allow cross loading. And anytime I weight the system, the webbing comes to the same point eliminating any triaxial loading.
redpoint73,
I understand the concerns you have, but I do take every care when I do clip to the rope instead of tying. Even the manual on my harness says clipping an eight to my harness is good.
Is my harness manufacturer wrong?
Also, I'm curious if there is any Insurance/Liability issues involved in how the gyms have customers attach to the rope.. having the climbers tie in vs. having the knots pre-tied...I'll check on that.
Speaking with the gym owner, it seemed the safer alternative.
It is much safer having Mom clip her son/daughter into a pre-tied/checked figure eight. Instead of trying to teach her how to handle the rope and tie the knot and run the belay device and watch her child to make sure he/she is safe.
And when you have 90-100 people in a gym, trying to make sure everyone is in properly would take an extraordinary amount of manpower.
And people can use a gri-gri without knowing how to tie an eight...
The TRs are all set up with the gri-gris locked with a quick link, which is then clipped to the harness so we don't have Mommy and Daddy trying to thread the rope the wrong way and inadvertently killing or injuring their child.
Also, using a pre-tied knot is not lazy; especially in a gym situation.
It is more efficient.
(wow..starting to get warm in here)
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kindredlion
Jan 21, 2003, 7:31 PM
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HOLY CANOLY!!!
THank You BradHill For being a breath of reality in this debate over who's got the most current textbook!
THE ONLY TEXTBOOK RULE THAT IS ALWAYS TRUE...
EVERYTHING IS SITUATIONAL!!
Definition for textbook driven typewriter monkeys :
What works well in one situation, may or may not work well in another. What could never apply to one situation may be necessary, in an almost identical situation, with minor environmental changes.
My being so young, I can only say this from experience...
"Try and use your heads, Kids"
If you are an individual that is still learning (this category includes ALL of us), we can never be sure about an unfamiliar situation, without applicable data. Now if we don't own that particular edition of the Falcon HOWTO series... what?!?! are we SOL?..... Of course not, we draw from our greatest data pool... EXPERIENCE
Now maybe this is just me, but...
If I am in a situation that may be unfamiliar, and I feel there is something that I am missing in order to proceed safely, what am I to do?
-Retreat immediately?
-Cry and Wail, and make someone drop you a rope, or come to your rescue?
-Curse your self silly for getting into that scenario in the first place?
-Curse your partner silly, for having got you into this scenario?
-Understand that you put yourself there... (after your done cursing) You had to overcome various hurdles, and solve various problems to get there, why stop now?
You may not have read that chapter, you may not have prior experience, you may never have even imagined this situation could exist... But you're there!
Whatever calculations you take to come to whatever conclusion, leading to whatever result, you can bet that once your done, sitting safe at home on front of your piles of Falcon HOWTO, you will begin to ask the questions....
Was what I did the best possible thing I could have done in that scenario?
Is there a recorded history of this scenario?
What would other people have done, if they imagined being in that spot?
What HAVE people done in that (now completely hypothetical) scenario?
All of that data you compile, may lead you to a different result than what you came up with on the wall.
Bottom line here is (sorry for the long windedness of this RANT)
Keep passing around suggestions keep learning, and sharing, But :
DON'T EVER GET STUCK DOING THINGS ONE WAY!!
Be prepared to recognize A Better Way (plug:PTPP) to every situation.
Definition for text book driven typewriter monkeys :
What works well in one situation, may or may not work well in another. What could never apply to one situation may be necessary, in an almost identical situation, with minor environmental changes.
____________________________________________
I owe Everone an apology I am always miffed by the tunnel vision of some folks, and chose this as a medium to vent.
Slightly off of the main topic, but I feel I touched on an important point here.
DONT RESTRICT YOURSELF TO WHAT YOU READ !
(remember its people that write this stuff, and they are not infallible)
You can learn a lot from books, and bulletin boards. You can answer a lot of questions by asking.
Nothing replaces a mentor. Whether its a more experienced partner for a day, where you can milk her for answers, and plead for her to ropegun some stuff you wouldn't touch. Or a certified AMGA guide for a week. A couple like minded individuals you spot at the Crag, can teach you a lot about what you feel is right and wrong compared to what they feel is right and wrong.
OK FINE !
Done... (4now)
Take Air,
Adam
Editted Because My HTML Tagging seems to suck Royally!! Unlike my gear tagging wich you get when you ask nicely..
[ This Message was edited by: kindredlion on 2003-01-24 11:47 ]
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crazywacky
Jan 21, 2003, 7:40 PM
Post #34 of 35
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Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 409
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Bonus points for kindredlion
You got what none of use could see...
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 7:52 PM
Post #35 of 35
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Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
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If mommy and daddy don't know how to thread a Gri-gri, then they also probably don't understand that it won't lock/cam if the body of the device gets shoved against your body. My point is that if you can't tie a figure-8, you are a novice. And a Gri-gri is not a device for a novice, despite popular belief.
In any case, those "party" climbing gyms scare me(where beginners belay each other, and there are always big b-day parties for kids). I have seen other/safer gyms host parties, and employee belayers are part of the party package. I personally don't like the mentality that rock climbing is something you can just put on a pair of shoes and try with little or no instruction. A certain amount of instruction is required to be safe. You wouldn't have a SCUBA party and hand out wet suits to people with no training, would you???
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