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calpolyclimber
Jan 21, 2003, 5:39 AM
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The other day at the crag me and my buddies came across another group of climbers who had tied a fig. 8 loop in the end of thier rope and were clipping into the rope with their belay biner (on belay loop). From everything I have learned, this is a bad idea, and I told them so. I know you never tie into the belay loop, but do other people just swap the rope between climbers using a locker? We're talking top rope situations. It just seemed sketchy to me (they seemed to be pretty inexperienced), so I told them.
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woodse
Jan 21, 2003, 5:42 AM
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Why add another piece to the equation? Thats my philosophy.
woodsE
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calpolyclimber
Jan 21, 2003, 5:44 AM
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Thats what I was thinking, K.I.S.S....
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tradaddict
Jan 21, 2003, 5:47 AM
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Lazyness breeds injury and worse in climbing, but maybe they were never taught the (I hesitate to use this term because it begs to be flamed) "correct" way to tie in and you did them a major favour by bringing it to their attention. Kudos on caring for your fellow climbers.
Deirdre
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fitz
Jan 21, 2003, 5:58 AM
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This is actually shown on the instructions with some biners. I've actually used (two) biner tie-in in a simulated rescue situation.
In a top rope situation, provided that the rope is kept reasonably tight, it is pretty safe. After all, it is basically a one biner tie in at the belayer's end!
But, in addition to the KISS comment (which I agree with), and the potential for cross loading and open gate situations, another thing to think about is the rope. The ends wear out fast enough as it is. Pounding on the same 1" over and over, along with tightening one eight to the size of a jellybean is pretty hard on a line!
-jjf
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dustinap
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Jan 21, 2003, 6:10 AM
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On rec.climbing this was discussed some months ago. The final outcome of the discussion, quite long I may add, was that it isn't the best idea given typical circumstances. You should try looking up the topic up on google.
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galt
Jan 21, 2003, 6:16 AM
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Although you CAN do tie into a biner (although I wouldn't advise through a belay loop) why would you? Why throw in another piece of equipment to double check? I think it would be safe, but I'm smart enough not to trust my life to "I think." I saw a demo where someone used a "Twist and Pull" biner and showed us how an 8 could actually unclip if you take a fall a certian way. That was enough of a demo for me never to try it again, but with a normal screw-gate biner it "I think" it would be safe.....
I think
(nope, I'm taking the time to tie-in old school)
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tradaddict
Jan 21, 2003, 6:18 AM
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^^That's exactly what they are talking about when they say KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.
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twolcott75
Jan 21, 2003, 1:38 PM
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My brother was on a emergency response team at an oil refinery and they also used the biner to tie in. The process was to tie a eight on a bite and connect it through the leg and waist loops (not the belay loop)with the biner. I am fairly sure that they were instructed by the chicago fire department high altitude response team.
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esimhs99
Jan 21, 2003, 1:39 PM
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they do this at the gym with little kids. i think that it is a KISS situation for those who are not as experienced, and maybe are just out there for the day having fun and are not really serious about it
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lazide
Jan 21, 2003, 2:15 PM
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It is pretty common in small/short gyms (we do it here), because there are so many kids going back and forth (who can not be expected to tie a fig8 correctly, if at all).
It is 'safe enough' on top-rope, but not the optimal solution. If you must use a 'biner, use two - opposite, opposed, and locked.
We use a double bowline to tie into the 'biner as well, as it doesn't cinch up into a total mofo after being fallen on umpteen million times.
We take exceptional care in checking out climbers, have both parties check, etc. Never had an accident or fatality of any kind (in 6 something years of tri-weekly activity) - better than the commercial gyms nearby by far, and with nearly the same amount of traffic.
You weigh the risks, and take your chances, as with anything. In our case, the risk of having the (mostly) inexperienced climbers we deal with tying incorrect knots, is considered worse than the risk of missing an incorrectly/non locked gate on a carabiner.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 2:55 PM
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I have seen this in a few gyms, but with STEEL locking carabiners, not the typical aluminum biners. Steel biners have much higher cross loading strength.
Opinions will vary a bit, but I am of the opinion that this should NOT be done with a regular (aluminum) biner. Some may argue that falling forces are low in a top rope system, and the biner should not "flop" and cross load if the rope is always tight. But I believe there is just too much possibility of a cross load. It is impossible to have the rope taut 100% of the time. Particularly if the climber is under an overhang or roof, where keeping the rope tight will pull him off the wall.
Many climbers (usaully not beginners) like a bit of slack in the system, to make sure that they are doing the moves by themselves, and not intentionally putting weight on the rope. Other situation where there is slack in the top rope system (primarily for more advanced climbers) is when practicing down-climbing, or when you are about to try a dyno.
This is not the same as the biner on the belayer end of the rope, because there is less movement on that end, and the belayer should always be conscious of the biner position.
Also, this is teaching bad habits, and not teaching the "students" how to tie-in properly. The kids at my gym (maybe around 10 yrs) ARE EXPECTED to tie in properly. If they are a bit younger, they should have pretty close adult supervision anyway. So the adults can just tie them in. One might argue that with steel biners at the gym, this is ok. I would be scared if the gym had aluminum biners.
I also agree with the "K.I.S.S." attitude. Why introduce an extra, uneccesary piece of gear to the system?
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cracklover
Jan 21, 2003, 3:43 PM
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As others have said, this is a fairly common practice for kids and low end (read Mall) climbing walls. When perfectly supervised, I suspect it is completely safe. However, a growing number of accidents are causing me to wonder if the supervision level that is available is sufficient for this practice. Many serious accidents are occurring that might be avoided with a proper fig-8 follow-thru tie in. The fact that you can see from a distance whether a fig-8 follow through is tied right means that if a mistake is made, an improper tie in is more likely to be caught before the climber starts than an unlocked or improperly clipped biner clip in. Combine that with the fact that it takes more time and care to tie each kid into the rope, and more attention means fewer mistakes.
All the evidence I've seen so far in the latest accident (referenced below) seems to to point to the biner clip in as the failure point.
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/011603/b0116mallfall.html
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 4:07 PM
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The real danger in the situation you describe is clipping into the belay loop. A screwlock biner clipped into a figure 8 follow-through can be acceptable for certain top-roping situations (short gym climbs, etc.) - but I would clip into both the leg loops and waist belt on the harness.
I hardly ever use my belay loop - when i belay I always clip into both loops on my harness - that way there's always a backup in case the belay loop fails.
I've even seen some people rap routes or clip into the anchors to untie and clean a route only clipped into their belay loop - why take that chance?
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cracklover
Jan 21, 2003, 4:16 PM
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Aarong, was it a typo that transformed your name from Aaron to Aarong, or were you trying to warn unsuspecting users that you will be spewing advice that is a-wrong?
The belay loop is the strongest point on your harness for clipping in to a biner. That's why the manufacturers put it there. Read the instructions that came with your harness, if you don't believe it. Intelligent climbers may argue about specific instances in which clipping in to the waist and leg loops as you described may be acceptable, or even (in rare cases) better. But it's pretty well accepted that for general use, you are wrong - the belay loop is the best clip in point for belaying, primarily to avoid tri-loading the biner. This has been discussed to death over the last eight or so years since harness manufacturers started to switch over. If you don't believe me, do some research.
GO
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womble
Jan 21, 2003, 4:27 PM
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Good grief! Yes, cracklover is correct- one is _supposed_ to use the belay loop when belaying. Using the leg and waist attachments can result in crossloading the belay biner!
People rap using the belay loop so the device is a bit further away from the body and has some slack to be used freely. I guess that using both loops here isn't as big a deal as shockloading is unlikely but it does make the whole rap attachment stiffer.
[ This Message was edited by: womble on 2003-01-21 08:38 ]
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crazywacky
Jan 21, 2003, 4:27 PM
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For tope rope systems, I (and all the people I have climbed with since '92) do the same thing. Well, not to the belay loop.
I put the carabiner through the leg and waist loops, which for me covers 2 pieces of webbing the way my harness is sewn...
And to me, that's pretty darn simple.
Same setup at the gyms I've been to.
All the knots are pre-tied and you clip straight to your harness.
Or, like in one of the gyms, you don't even need a carabineer on your harness, as they are permanently attached to the rope. You unclip the climber’s end from the anchor (daisy chained to the floor), and clip it to your harness.
The belayer gets a gri-gri with a permanently attached (via quick link) carabiner to attach to his/her harness.
No worries about improper tying of knots.
The amount of people that come to gyms that have never climbed before is truly amazing. And they simply cannot be expected to pick up a rope and tie a knot properly in the amount of time that is alloted for a tour of the facilities and a belay test.
And I see no reason what-so-ever to do anything different for TR setups out doors. Especially if you have a group of more than 4 people wanting to do the same climb.
I do it completely different for lead climbing...that's a whole different world and practices in TR climbs do no apply.
I do understand some reasoning behind practicing the same thing whether on TR or lead, but still feel completely safe clipped to a pre-tied loop.
Cracklover - that article points to an automatic belay device.
They dont' normally use rope. It'll be some sort of webbing or cable (though I haven't seen any like that they may exist) with a permanently attached steel 'biner.
I would imagine the climber didn't make sure the gate was closed before he started...or his harness wasn't doubled back.
Just my $.02
(edit to add a "don't")
[ This Message was edited by: crazywacky on 2003-01-21 08:38 ]
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 4:51 PM
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crazywacky:
Just because you "see no reason whatsoever to do anything different" than clip into the rope for TR, does not mean there is no reason!!!!
Read my post above. There is the possibility that the biner will shift into a cross loaded position, greatly compromising the strength of an aluminum biner. While the falling forces in top roping are usually small, why take the risk? Maybe nothing bad will happen. On the other hand, you don't want to be that "one" guy who got hurt or killed because his biner broke. Use a steel biner and you will be relatively safe. Steel biners have much higher cross loaded strength. If you are doing it, at LEAST use a steel biner.
Also, most manufacturers and I believe the UIAA are pretty clear about tying in the rope, not clipping it. Regarding your comment about people who have never climbed: If a person does not know how to tie-in, then they also have NO BUSINESS using a Grigri. Is pretty simple at my gym, if you can't tie-in and belay, you don't climb. The acception being that kids can climb: Parents tie them in and belay them.
If your main reason for clipping the rope is because its "easier" or "faster", than I think thats the wrong reason. Tying/untying only takes one minute. Laziness is no excuse to shortcut widely accepted safety practices.
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cracklover
Jan 21, 2003, 5:00 PM
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crazywacky, thanks for letting us know how you do it in TX. I'd heard about this, but hadn't seen it, and it's always interesting to me to hear how other folks do stuff. As I said, I think that with enough supervision, it's probably safe enough, so long as the biner is properly locked. The only reason why it's acceptable is that the loads in gym TRing are (usually) pretty low. Most biners are good for 8 or 9 kN cross-loaded. Anyway, I'm more concerned about this setup on rappellers' and belayers' harnesses, since their body angles are more likely to create bad stresses on the biner.
Do people at these gyms usually belay from the belay loop, or also from the leg/waist?
GO
[ This Message was edited by: cracklover on 2003-01-21 09:02 ]
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bradhill
Jan 21, 2003, 5:19 PM
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I tie in through biners on lead in a couple of situations, and am leaning more and more towards doing it all the time:
On ice. It really sucks to try to deal with frozen knots with frozen, pumped fingers. Not a good plan to not be able to escape the belay/rope if you need to.
When alpine climbing, especially following, with twins or doubles. If the leader got to a hard spot and hung his pack off a piece of pro to continue, when you get to it you can unclip one strand, clip it into the pack for hauling and continue up on the other.
When speed is important. For leading in blocks, you can just unclip (AFTER daisying in) and switch rope ends instead of restacking the rope.
When I am doing this, I always use TWO large pear biners with opposing gates that are threaded through my harness, not just the belay loop. One biner is NOT enough. Read the "British soloist charged with endangerment" thread in the aid forum to find out why!
With twins and doubles for this technique, I also clip into a "safety eight". Start to tie an eight on a bight, but insead of passing the end of the bight through to finish, fold it and pass a double bight through, then pull the end bight over the top. This gives you two strands to clip into for a "full strength" tie in on skinny ropes.
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aarong
Jan 21, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Thanks for the reply - but I'll continue to belay off two loops instead of just one. Over time the belay loop gets a lot of wear and tear and I find that if I am clipped into 2 points on my harness (the leg loops and the wasit belt) that I can belay and rap with more control and more safely.
If the belay loop was as safe as using both the leg loops and the waist belt then don't you think harness manufactures would note that it is ok to tie into the belay loop when climbing?
I understand what standard practice is in the traditional sense but I feel safer & I think the person I am belaying feels safer when there is a backup to the system.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 5:56 PM
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I think its a little nitpicky either way. But the UIAA had a statement recently that clipping the belay biner to the waistbelt and leg riser (as opposed to the belay loop) is IMPROPER due to the possibility of the biner becoming positioned improperly and tri-loaded. Also, if you want to quote what the manufacturer says, you will see that your harness instructions instruct you to clip the belay biner to the belay loop.
Your belay loop gets wear and tear? That seems unusual. I don't get any wear on the belay loop. I get wear at the tie in points on the waistband and leg riser.
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jt512
Jan 21, 2003, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
If the belay loop was as safe as using both the leg loops and the waist belt then don't you think harness manufactures would note that it is ok to tie into the belay loop when climbing?
No. We've been through this time and again, and it has also been discussed reapeatedly on rec.climbing. The belay loop is for belaying and rappelling. Using the belay loop reduces the chances of cross-loading the carabiner. Several accidents have been attributed to rappelling or belaying with a figure-8 rappel device clipped into the two tie-in points. The triaxial load stabilizes the biner in the wrong orientation, permitting the figure 8 to leverage open the gate under body weight alone. The results were usually fatal.
While the belay loop would be strong enough for tying in, it is not durable enough to withstand wear from the rope. In contrast, the two tie-in points on the waist belt and leg loops are reinforced so that they wear longer.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2003-01-21 10:48 ]
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superdiamonddave
Jan 21, 2003, 6:01 PM
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I am totally with Aaron on this one. And the orientation of the ATC is correct for belaying and rapelling when the biner is going through the leg and waist loops.
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redpoint73
Jan 21, 2003, 6:33 PM
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Any actual reason/justification for that dave, or just chiming out? UIAA recommends clipping the belay biner to the belay loop, and NOT the waistbelt, leg riser.
I found a UIAA article referring to one of the accicents that jt512 spoke of. The figure-8 broke the biner because it was clipped to the tie-in points and the rappeller died. Scary.
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