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baywolf
Feb 17, 2003, 8:57 PM
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I saw this in some mag a couple of years ago.
you can take your full(9mm-10.5mm) rope and take one end of it, thread it through the anchors and tie a fig-8 on a bight and clip a locking biner to the end. then with a much smaller diamiter rope( I use a 7mm),the same length as your full rope, tie a bight in the end and attach that to the same locking biner that your full rope is clipped to. then use the full lenght of your full rope to rap, the locking biner will prevent your rope from sliding through the anchors. @ the bottom you just pull your rope through with the smaller rope and your off. this is a lot lighter method than carrying two full ropes. the only problem that I ran into was my 7mm rope was getting tangled, but I solved that problem by using a stuff sack.
what do you think? anybody use this method?
Jared
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danskiz
Feb 17, 2003, 9:03 PM
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Why not just use double 8.8 mm ropes? Probably not much heavier than a 10, and a 7. Plus doubles are much nicer for wandering routes.
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baywolf
Feb 17, 2003, 9:16 PM
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well i guess one could do that too. only i have never used two half ropes. this is just the way I do things, im not saying its right... im just putting the thought out there.
Jared
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voltzwgn
Feb 17, 2003, 9:22 PM
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I've also heard of this being done using parachute cord for the second line, probably cheaper, lighter and smaller than the 7mm stuff. I've never felt the need to do this but it is an option.
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easysteve
Feb 17, 2003, 9:54 PM
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Don't use parachute cord for that. Or 550, or rare 500. It should say on the packaging to not use it for climbing purposes, more specifically rapping
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kman
Feb 17, 2003, 10:04 PM
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^ if you read the original post again you'll notice that he is only using the smaller diameter cord as a pull cord, and not using it for the actual rap. Correct?
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madturtle
Feb 17, 2003, 10:06 PM
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Does anyone else see a safety concern w/ pulling a locking biner from 200 feet above? That could put a good dent in somebody I'd think.
I've heard of using a 7 mm pull cord before but is connecting the 2 w/ a biner standard M.O.
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baywolf
Feb 18, 2003, 12:16 AM
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Right, the 7mm is only used in pulling the rap rope. as for getting hit with a biner...when was the last time you got hit with the middle of your rope when you pulled it through any other anchors?
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phugganut
Feb 18, 2003, 2:49 AM
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I don't think I'd want to use a biner after it had taken a 200' fall :!:
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baywolf
Feb 18, 2003, 8:28 PM
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I use an old biner which i designate only for that purpose.
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flamer
Feb 18, 2003, 9:39 PM
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The biner is not going to take a fall! you should have it in hand before the rest of the rope comes down...have you people never rappeled before? Also if you are using a 7mm why not just rap normally? A 7mm and a 10mm tied together are just fine for rapping! Now P-cord i could understand. The only time I see this technique as useful is if you were rappeling overhanging terrain the is unknown to you. That way if you need to reascend the rope you could....
josh
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baywolf
Feb 18, 2003, 11:34 PM
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Actually Flamer I just went and looked at it and its really only a 5mm. And as for repelling with it....I wouldn't even use it to tie into anchors. Im sure it would hold, but I like a little more girth.
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smithclimber
Feb 19, 2003, 12:24 AM
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I've done this several times and I'm fond of it (as long as there is little chance of the rope(s) catching on anything as they fall down.
I've used a 5mm x 60m "pull cord" in conjunction with the 8.8mm lead line we used to rap off of a ridge traverse.
I've also rapped down big walls using the technique. Used the same 5mm line in conjunction with the 10.5mm lead line.
I've always just tied the two ropes together with a large enough knot that it couldn't pass through the anchor, however there is no reason you couldn't use the biner method if you really prefer.
If you are going to go ahead and employ the biner, you might as well go ahead and configure it so that the biner (which is effectively connecting the two lines) is also clipped back onto the thicker rope (lead line) as an extra back up. This makes it even safer since it eliminates the possibility of a failure in the event that the knot does SOMEHOW get pulled through the anchors.
One last little advantage of using this method is that you can simply rap that thicker rope with a Grigri. This comes in very handy when rappeling down big walls where you may have to stop from time to time, freeing up both hands to place gear, to hold the rap line close to an overhanging or traversing pitch that you are reversing.
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baywolf
Feb 21, 2003, 10:16 PM
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Just wondering Smith, What knot do you use to connect your 5mm to your rap line? being that there is such a difference in diamiter do you use a sheet(becket) bend?
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smithclimber
Feb 21, 2003, 11:01 PM
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It depends. I use a square knot backed up by triple fisherman's knots (this is my standard knot for joining 2 rap ropes) as long as it will not be able to slip through the anchor. Often though, I will need to use another type of knot that has a larger profile (multiple Euro Death Knots).
Sometimes I'll use one particular knot to actually join the two lines and then a separate large profile knot tied right next to it (on the thicker rope's side of the initial knot) that will be the one that actually jams against the anchor.
The anchor you are working with will dictate what type(s) of knot(s) you will want to use.
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flamer
Feb 22, 2003, 2:45 AM
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Baywolf,
I would not suggest rapping a 5mm! Although strength wise you would probably be fine, I to prefer a little more love....When are we climbing ? I need to be climbing more!!!
josh
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smithclimber
Feb 23, 2003, 8:03 PM
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Just to clarify, Flamer, I've explained using the 5mm as the "pull down cord" not using it to actually rappel on. You are still rappeling on the thicker rope (i.e. 10mm), and then using the 5mm to "retrieve".
Just want that to be clear.
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godsmybelayer
Feb 23, 2003, 8:10 PM
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Someone please explain this better and in detail, we have people here who think your talking about rappelling on this line!!!!
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col_sanderz
Feb 23, 2003, 8:54 PM
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The way the original poster described the method, seems like the same way that petzl suggests you rappel with a gri-gri...anyone else look at the manual??
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flamer
Feb 24, 2003, 3:45 AM
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Smith Climber,
Yeah I knew what you meant! I thought It was implied that I suggested rapping a 5mm and was trying to make in clear that I did not!
On another note...did we fly from Denver to Vegas together at X-mas one year? I think it was....2000? If this is you we talked about useing this technique for lightening your load when 2 ropes are required...
josh
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baywolf
Feb 24, 2003, 7:56 PM
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Hi Everybody. Ok to clear this up.
You start with a full size rope(9.5mm-10.5mm), which is the only line holding weight, and we will call this rope #1. Thread #1 through the anchors. With the treaded end of #1 tie a smaller diam. rope(#2) that is the same length or longer than that of your full rope. I use a 5mm for my #2. Now #2 is only used as a pull line. You must make sure that the knot used to tie #1 & #2 together is significantly larger than the anchor diamiter so that the knot can't be pulled through the anchors. This will allow you to rap using only the #1 rope at its full length, be it a 50m or 60m.
I hope this clears things up but it would be a good idea for anyone planning on using this technique to find it in a published climbing book/mag.
Jared
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aquadood
Dec 6, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Old tread, but i thought i'd add this recent Rock & Ice article for reference.
The Reepschnur Method:
http://www.rockandice.com/...91-reepschnur-review
Baywolf, in your last post you forgot to mention tying the F8-on-a-bight + locker around #1. Forgetting this caused a fatality in Yose this season.
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tower_climber
Dec 6, 2010, 7:54 PM
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This is kind of like the pull-down method of rappelling employed in vertical caving.
You thread one end of the rap rope through the anchor chain.
Then thread it through a large washer. I keep three 3" OD x .5" ID wishers in my pack on a P-cord loop with chain links and descending rings for rigging. These washers will work for up to 11mm ropes.
Take your P-cord and tie it to the rope with a clove hitch (good) or double fisherman's (better), leaving a 12-18" tag of the rap rope beyond the knot.
Tie the tag to the rap rope into a double or triple fisherman's, with the P-cord running through the center of the knot. You now have the p-cord and rap rope joined by a double fisherman's bend.
Weight the rap rope and rap down. The washer keeps the knot from squeezing through the chain link or rolling/pulling out because of the link.
When you're at the bottom, pull the p-cord and retrieve the rope.
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shimanilami
Dec 6, 2010, 8:16 PM
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I don't think that your set-up accomplishes quite the same thing. Imagine if you were single-line rappeling off a tree rather than rap rings. Your 3" washers aren't going to help you much (not, at least, the way I'm picturing it). The backup method described in the R&I article, however, makes single-line rappeling off of a tree totally viable.
(This post was edited by shimanilami on Dec 6, 2010, 8:19 PM)
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tower_climber
Dec 6, 2010, 8:23 PM
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If you're rapping off just the tree, I'd agree. However, if you're slinging it with webbing (which would be a better decision anyway) you can accomplish the same setup. Along with the washers, I have several single heavy-gauge chain links in my rigging kit. Simply thread the link onto the webbing before tying it off, and you are set to rig the washer stop. The chain links are cheaper than descending rings, and easier to find (Home Depot and Lowes will cut chain links for you from 10,000lb-rated chain).
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shimanilami
Dec 6, 2010, 8:30 PM
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The good news is that the two approaches are not exclusive, although it may be overkill to use both at the same time.
I like the R&I method because it only requires an extra 'biner, which I'll be carrying anyway.
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guangzhou
Dec 9, 2010, 12:54 AM
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A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope .
Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor.
Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time.
Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope.
As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose.
This is a tactical technique. Scary.
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bill413
Dec 9, 2010, 2:47 AM
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guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary. |
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sp115
Dec 9, 2010, 1:46 PM
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guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary.
Better and easier? Holy shit, the things you read around here...
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j_ung
Dec 9, 2010, 1:57 PM
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bill413 wrote: guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary.
I'm not saying that can't work... but I'd rather fix and leave my rope.
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dynosore
Dec 9, 2010, 2:18 PM
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guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary.
Or, save even more time and just jump from the top of the cliff. The outcome will probably be similar.
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bill413
Dec 9, 2010, 2:41 PM
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There were a couple of videos by a Spanish speaking group that showed some methods of single rope, full length, rappel.
My recollection is:
One method was akin to tying a loop in the rope, running the rope around the anchor, tying a loop in the end, and passing that loop through the first one, and passing a toggle through the end loop to hold it in place. The toggle was attached to the main cord via a bungie. As long as the rope was weighted, the pressure of the rope loop kept the toggle in place. When the rope was unweighted, the bungie pulled the toggle out, freeing the rope.
Scary vids - but I can't recall how to find them.
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nh_ranger
Dec 9, 2010, 3:25 PM
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There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat.
Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner.
Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs.
(This post was edited by nh_ranger on Dec 9, 2010, 3:28 PM)
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moose_droppings
Dec 9, 2010, 4:58 PM
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nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs.
Have you ever done that on a tree?
Isn't the friction from the weight of the entire rope rubbing on that tree going to make that almost impossible pull. Maybe once you get it moving, but
1. your probably going to need gloves on that small of a tag line for pulling.
2. there's going to be an awful lot of strecth to your pull line.
3. it's going to play hell on the tree isn't it?
I know that way will work when using it on something smooth. Again, just asking if you've ever tried it using a tree for an anchor?
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dugl33
Dec 9, 2010, 6:11 PM
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With the exception of the link to the Rock and Ice article, the bad advice and misinformation running through this thread will probably result in the demise of a handful of noobs.
Not that I'm against culling the herd or anything. 
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nh_ranger
Dec 9, 2010, 7:59 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs. Have you ever done that on a tree? Isn't the friction from the weight of the entire rope rubbing on that tree going to make that almost impossible pull. Maybe once you get it moving, but 1. your probably going to need gloves on that small of a tag line for pulling. 2. there's going to be an awful lot of strecth to your pull line. 3. it's going to play hell on the tree isn't it? I know that way will work when using it on something smooth. Again, just asking if you've ever tried it using a tree for an anchor?
If you can't grip the 7mm cord a prusik loop can solve that, and if the rope is too difficult to pull down build a 3:1 z drag system on itself to multiply your pulling force by 3. And it won't be too bad on a tree, rapping off a tree is standard practice when using two ropes for a full length rappel.
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moose_droppings
Dec 9, 2010, 9:51 PM
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nh_ranger wrote: If you can't grip the 7mm cord a prusik loop can solve that, and if the rope is too difficult to pull down build a 3:1 z drag system on itself to multiply your pulling force by 3. And it won't be too bad on a tree, rapping off a tree is standard practice when using two ropes for a full length rappel.
I guess I'm not going to carry a 5mm prusik for grabbing that line, but I do always carry gloves. I suppose I could just hand over hand it till enough stretch comes out of that tag line to start pulling the main line.
I don't think it's standard practice to run your rope around a tree to rap, at least not here. We'll use a piece of webbing around the tree and run the rope through it or a rap ring on it. I also think that running a rope around it and pulling it is a bit easier than trying to pull one that's been cinched up on a biner and trying to pull it.
But I don't know, I've never done it your way, just asking (again) if you've ever done like explained above with just a tree, and what are the results?
Thanks.
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andesite
Dec 9, 2010, 10:09 PM
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nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs.
So you are hauling away on your 7mm pull cord and the end of the rap line is going up away from you, and then the 'biner/fig-8 knot you are pulling down gets stuck...
And you are still a couple of raps from the ground.
Now what?
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altelis
Dec 9, 2010, 10:21 PM
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andesite wrote: nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs. So you are hauling away on your 7mm pull cord and the end of the rap line is going up away from you, and then the 'biner/fig-8 knot you are pulling down gets stuck... And you are still a couple of raps from the ground. Now what?
majid, did you start taking english lessons 
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trenchdigger
Dec 9, 2010, 11:50 PM
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altelis wrote: andesite wrote: nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs. So you are hauling away on your 7mm pull cord and the end of the rap line is going up away from you, and then the 'biner/fig-8 knot you are pulling down gets stuck... And you are still a couple of raps from the ground. Now what? majid, did you start taking english lessons
Haha... nice.
But the truth is, andesite is 100% correct. Your pull line should be no smaller than the minimum line you'd be willing to jug or lead on to free a stuck rope.
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nh_ranger
Dec 10, 2010, 12:45 AM
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With this system as long as the rap line is free of obstructions, than the knot/biner should come down. This is an often used method for rapping big-wall routes, so I would expect other parties have had as much success as I've had. But I wouldn't have a problem jugging a 7mm line too.
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j_ung
Dec 10, 2010, 3:02 AM
Post #42 of 46
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
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I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick.
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notapplicable
Dec 10, 2010, 3:45 AM
Post #43 of 46
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
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j_ung wrote: I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick.
I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a lot of fuss when you could just knot the ends and do a standard double rope rap.
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dugl33
Dec 10, 2010, 4:42 AM
Post #44 of 46
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Registered: Oct 6, 2009
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notapplicable wrote: j_ung wrote: I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick. I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a lot of fuss when you could just knot the ends and do a standard double rope rap.
This works, although the 7 mm will feed faster through the atc than the fat rope resulting in uneven ropes. This can be mitigated by having the fat rope through the rap ring so the knot hangs up. When the skinny line goes through you really have to keep an eye on things or you can end up rapping off the end of the skinny rope -- zing!
Certainly there are ways to back yourself up, but its a little disconcerting seeing the knot move 15 or 20 feet while your partner raps.
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bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 5:38 AM
Post #45 of 46
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Registered: Feb 2, 2009
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if you do rap on a 7mm static and normal rope ... remeber to make your static longer due to stretch ... im sure most already know this but jsut in case
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notapplicable
Dec 10, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #46 of 46
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
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dugl33 wrote: notapplicable wrote: j_ung wrote: I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick. I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a lot of fuss when you could just knot the ends and do a standard double rope rap. This works, although the 7 mm will feed faster through the atc than the fat rope resulting in uneven ropes. This can be mitigated by having the fat rope through the rap ring so the knot hangs up. When the skinny line goes through you really have to keep an eye on things or you can end up rapping off the end of the skinny rope -- zing! Certainly there are ways to back yourself up, but its a little disconcerting seeing the knot move 15 or 20 feet while your partner raps.
Thats where the knoted ends come in to play. It's pretty straight forward to even up the ends while on rappel if you come up a bit short on the skinny line.
But it's just like rapping the single line, if you skip a step (biner backup in one case, knoting the ends in the other) you could easily die.
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