|
shimanilami
Dec 6, 2010, 8:30 PM
Post #26 of 46
(2099 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
The good news is that the two approaches are not exclusive, although it may be overkill to use both at the same time.
I like the R&I method because it only requires an extra 'biner, which I'll be carrying anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Dec 9, 2010, 12:54 AM
Post #27 of 46
(2060 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope .
Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor.
Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time.
Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope.
As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose.
This is a tactical technique. Scary.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Dec 9, 2010, 2:47 AM
Post #28 of 46
(2046 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary. |
|
|
|
|
sp115
Dec 9, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #29 of 46
(2022 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 515
|
guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary.
Better and easier? Holy shit, the things you read around here...
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Dec 9, 2010, 1:57 PM
Post #30 of 46
(2018 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
bill413 wrote: guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary.
I'm not saying that can't work... but I'd rather fix and leave my rope.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Dec 9, 2010, 2:18 PM
Post #31 of 46
(2012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
guangzhou wrote: A better and easier approach to doing a full lenght rappel with a single rope . Take the end of your rope, go around or through the anchor. Wrap the rope around itself half a dozen time. Place the rope over the side of the cliff so the weight applies pressure to the wrapped part of the rope. As long as you have weight on the system, all is good. When you reach the bottom, shake the ropeuntil it comes loose. This is a tactical technique. Scary.
Or, save even more time and just jump from the top of the cliff. The outcome will probably be similar.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Dec 9, 2010, 2:41 PM
Post #32 of 46
(2006 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
There were a couple of videos by a Spanish speaking group that showed some methods of single rope, full length, rappel.
My recollection is:
One method was akin to tying a loop in the rope, running the rope around the anchor, tying a loop in the end, and passing that loop through the first one, and passing a toggle through the end loop to hold it in place. The toggle was attached to the main cord via a bungie. As long as the rope was weighted, the pressure of the rope loop kept the toggle in place. When the rope was unweighted, the bungie pulled the toggle out, freeing the rope.
Scary vids - but I can't recall how to find them.
|
|
|
|
|
nh_ranger
Dec 9, 2010, 3:25 PM
Post #33 of 46
(2000 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 36
|
There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat.
Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner.
Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs.
(This post was edited by nh_ranger on Dec 9, 2010, 3:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Dec 9, 2010, 4:58 PM
Post #34 of 46
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs.
Have you ever done that on a tree?
Isn't the friction from the weight of the entire rope rubbing on that tree going to make that almost impossible pull. Maybe once you get it moving, but
1. your probably going to need gloves on that small of a tag line for pulling.
2. there's going to be an awful lot of strecth to your pull line.
3. it's going to play hell on the tree isn't it?
I know that way will work when using it on something smooth. Again, just asking if you've ever tried it using a tree for an anchor?
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Dec 9, 2010, 6:11 PM
Post #35 of 46
(1965 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
With the exception of the link to the Rock and Ice article, the bad advice and misinformation running through this thread will probably result in the demise of a handful of noobs.
Not that I'm against culling the herd or anything. 
|
|
|
|
|
nh_ranger
Dec 9, 2010, 7:59 PM
Post #36 of 46
(1938 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 36
|
moose_droppings wrote: nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs. Have you ever done that on a tree? Isn't the friction from the weight of the entire rope rubbing on that tree going to make that almost impossible pull. Maybe once you get it moving, but 1. your probably going to need gloves on that small of a tag line for pulling. 2. there's going to be an awful lot of strecth to your pull line. 3. it's going to play hell on the tree isn't it? I know that way will work when using it on something smooth. Again, just asking if you've ever tried it using a tree for an anchor?
If you can't grip the 7mm cord a prusik loop can solve that, and if the rope is too difficult to pull down build a 3:1 z drag system on itself to multiply your pulling force by 3. And it won't be too bad on a tree, rapping off a tree is standard practice when using two ropes for a full length rappel.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Dec 9, 2010, 9:51 PM
Post #37 of 46
(1927 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
nh_ranger wrote: If you can't grip the 7mm cord a prusik loop can solve that, and if the rope is too difficult to pull down build a 3:1 z drag system on itself to multiply your pulling force by 3. And it won't be too bad on a tree, rapping off a tree is standard practice when using two ropes for a full length rappel.
I guess I'm not going to carry a 5mm prusik for grabbing that line, but I do always carry gloves. I suppose I could just hand over hand it till enough stretch comes out of that tag line to start pulling the main line.
I don't think it's standard practice to run your rope around a tree to rap, at least not here. We'll use a piece of webbing around the tree and run the rope through it or a rap ring on it. I also think that running a rope around it and pulling it is a bit easier than trying to pull one that's been cinched up on a biner and trying to pull it.
But I don't know, I've never done it your way, just asking (again) if you've ever done like explained above with just a tree, and what are the results?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
andesite
Dec 9, 2010, 10:09 PM
Post #38 of 46
(1920 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2003
Posts: 10
|
nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs.
So you are hauling away on your 7mm pull cord and the end of the rap line is going up away from you, and then the 'biner/fig-8 knot you are pulling down gets stuck...
And you are still a couple of raps from the ground.
Now what?
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Dec 9, 2010, 10:21 PM
Post #39 of 46
(1917 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
andesite wrote: nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs. So you are hauling away on your 7mm pull cord and the end of the rap line is going up away from you, and then the 'biner/fig-8 knot you are pulling down gets stuck... And you are still a couple of raps from the ground. Now what?
majid, did you start taking english lessons 
|
|
|
|
|
trenchdigger
Dec 9, 2010, 11:50 PM
Post #40 of 46
(1895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2003
Posts: 1447
|
altelis wrote: andesite wrote: nh_ranger wrote: There really isn't a safe full length rappel with one single rope. Your best option would be to use a tag/pull line made of accessory cord 6-8mm thick. This way is similiar to baywolf's suggestion, but doesn't use the biner as a stopper, but to create a 'wrapless anchor wrap' and also guide the biner back down to the ground in a way that doesn't nail the dome piece of an unsuspecting cragrat. Tie a figure-eight on a bight at the end of the rope with a biner clipped into it, then go around an anchor (tree for example) once, then clip the biner back to the line going down (like a tensionless wrap but without any of the wraps). Then tie the end of the pull cord onto that same biner. Rap the single line, than when on the bottom pull the pull cord which will pull down the whole system. 65m or so of 7mm cord is a hell of a lot cheaper than new legs. So you are hauling away on your 7mm pull cord and the end of the rap line is going up away from you, and then the 'biner/fig-8 knot you are pulling down gets stuck... And you are still a couple of raps from the ground. Now what? majid, did you start taking english lessons
Haha... nice.
But the truth is, andesite is 100% correct. Your pull line should be no smaller than the minimum line you'd be willing to jug or lead on to free a stuck rope.
|
|
|
|
|
nh_ranger
Dec 10, 2010, 12:45 AM
Post #41 of 46
(1880 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 36
|
With this system as long as the rap line is free of obstructions, than the knot/biner should come down. This is an often used method for rapping big-wall routes, so I would expect other parties have had as much success as I've had. But I wouldn't have a problem jugging a 7mm line too.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Dec 10, 2010, 3:02 AM
Post #42 of 46
(1858 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick.
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 10, 2010, 3:45 AM
Post #43 of 46
(1850 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
j_ung wrote: I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick.
I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a lot of fuss when you could just knot the ends and do a standard double rope rap.
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Dec 10, 2010, 4:42 AM
Post #44 of 46
(1838 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
notapplicable wrote: j_ung wrote: I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick. I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a lot of fuss when you could just knot the ends and do a standard double rope rap.
This works, although the 7 mm will feed faster through the atc than the fat rope resulting in uneven ropes. This can be mitigated by having the fat rope through the rap ring so the knot hangs up. When the skinny line goes through you really have to keep an eye on things or you can end up rapping off the end of the skinny rope -- zing!
Certainly there are ways to back yourself up, but its a little disconcerting seeing the knot move 15 or 20 feet while your partner raps.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2010, 5:38 AM
Post #45 of 46
(1826 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
if you do rap on a 7mm static and normal rope ... remeber to make your static longer due to stretch ... im sure most already know this but jsut in case
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 10, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #46 of 46
(1819 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
dugl33 wrote: notapplicable wrote: j_ung wrote: I wouldn't have a problem rapping my climbing rope and the 7mm line together. Not sure why the biner is needed at all with a tag line that thick. I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a lot of fuss when you could just knot the ends and do a standard double rope rap. This works, although the 7 mm will feed faster through the atc than the fat rope resulting in uneven ropes. This can be mitigated by having the fat rope through the rap ring so the knot hangs up. When the skinny line goes through you really have to keep an eye on things or you can end up rapping off the end of the skinny rope -- zing! Certainly there are ways to back yourself up, but its a little disconcerting seeing the knot move 15 or 20 feet while your partner raps.
Thats where the knoted ends come in to play. It's pretty straight forward to even up the ends while on rappel if you come up a bit short on the skinny line.
But it's just like rapping the single line, if you skip a step (biner backup in one case, knoting the ends in the other) you could easily die.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
